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I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.

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I saw this at the shopping mall a few years back, I bet it is effective on the street, but.....

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I saw this at the shopping mall a few years back, I bet it is effective on the street, but.....

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That aluminum setup is funny!!!

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This pic was taken years ago, the concept was the grille was to be blocked off, and only rad air was to enter center opening, and the spoiler was intended to help make that happen plus any other benefits it furnished. For any on track use I intended to extend spoiler with hard rubber lower edge. It was for street and track use.

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I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.

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You are mistaken in that, the air flow is so carefully controlled that some of them will relentlessly overheat if the front spoiler is missing or broken. Even if the cooling fan is on continuously, there is not enough airflow going through the radiator. Some of the more flamboyant packages are aimed at the boy racer crowd, to be sure.

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I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.

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You are mistaken in that, the air flow is so carefully controlled that some of them will relentlessly overheat if the front spoiler is missing or broken. Even if the cooling fan is on continuously, there is not enough airflow going through the radiator. Some of the more flamboyant packages are aimed at the boy racer crowd, to be sure.

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Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.

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Highway speed are where they are the worst, all the air is deflected away from the opening, if you look the "grill" area is really tiny in comparison to the gaping maws that older cars have and placed much lower, really out of the airstream.
You would like an example....well, I have one. It involves aerodynamics, performance(for it's time) and a comedy of errors.
The shop I was working at the time was owned by a Father/Son and the Father had a 3rd gen F-body Trans Am that developed an overheating problem-on the freeway. This car was his pride and joy and used to make high speed runs to Vegas, he had a second home there. He is a mechanic and a damn good one as is his Son, so this would not do. It was a matter of Pride as well as need that it be fixed.
After replacing the radiator, fan switch, the cooling fan (including wiring the fan to run all the time)the problem persisted. Next the heads and finally the engine-yes the engine was rebuilt- basically to stock specs..... still the same.
After all that, it was noticed that the small lip spoiler was broken. It was a modest thing only a couple of inches long, running under the body just behind the lower valance opening, but replacing it fixed the overheat.
Again, as I pointed out in my first post, there are cosmetic aspects to these things, but engineers are driven by the need to control airflow and the Mfgrs spend millions to maximize MPG and any package that gets put on a production car isn't going to cause a significant increase in drag. They can offer them through a "performance division", or just let the aftermarket deal with it.
Most of the double wings, body kits and such have nothing to do with the OE and are so poorly built and engineered that they are laughable.
As gaudy as the Wing cars are, they have very good Cd numbers and are very stable @ high speed.
Take vortex generators, those little triangular looking things that are popping up on the roofs of newer cars, with careful placement and sizing they can reduce drag and increase stability a surprising amount. If you just buy stick on ones and put them anywhere they may do nothing or increase drag. So they are only there for looks if someone decided they would look cool, not if the Aero Engineering team specified where they should be.
Ultimately the only way to KNOW if something is truly effective on my/your/anybodies car is to test it. Unless you have access to a supercomputer or a wind tunnel it's more time consuming ie coast-down tests, taping string all over your car and watching/videoing where and how it moves around, using a Magnehelic gauge to measure pressure points, Etc.

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Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.

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Highway speed are where they are the worst, all the air is deflected away from the opening, if you look the "grill" area is really tiny in comparison to the gaping maws that older cars have and placed much lower, really out of the airstream.
You would like an example....well, I have one. It involves aerodynamics, performance(for it's time) and a comedy of errors.
The shop I was working at the time was owned by a Father/Son and the Father had a 3rd gen F-body Trans Am that developed an overheating problem-on the freeway. This car was his pride and joy and used to make high speed runs to Vegas, he had a second home there. He is a mechanic and a damn good one as is his Son, so this would not do. It was a matter of Pride as well as need that it be fixed.
After replacing the radiator, fan switch, the cooling fan (including wiring the fan to run all the time)the problem persisted. Next the heads and finally the engine-yes the engine was rebuilt- basically to stock specs..... still the same.
After all that, it was noticed that the small lip spoiler was broken. It was a modest thing only a couple of inches long, running under the body just behind the lower valance opening, but replacing it fixed the overheat.
Again, as I pointed out in my first post, there are cosmetic aspects to these things, but engineers are driven by the need to control airflow and the Mfgrs spend millions to maximize MPG and any package that gets put on a production car isn't going to cause a significant increase in drag. They can offer them through a "performance division", or just let the aftermarket deal with it.
Most of the double wings, body kits and such have nothing to do with the OE and are so poorly built and engineered that they are laughable.
As gaudy as the Wing cars are, they have very good Cd numbers and are very stable @ high speed.
Take vortex generators, those little triangular looking things that are popping up on the roofs of newer cars, with careful placement and sizing they can reduce drag and increase stability a surprising amount. If you just buy stick on ones and put them anywhere they may do nothing or increase drag. So they are only there for looks if someone decided they would look cool, not if the Aero Engineering team specified where they should be.
Ultimately the only way to KNOW if something is truly effective on my/your/anybodies car is to test it. Unless you have access to a supercomputer or a wind tunnel it's more time consuming ie coast-down tests, taping string all over your car and watching/videoing where and how it moves around, using a Magnehelic gauge to measure pressure points, Etc.

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Interestingly enough, I saw one of those F bodies on the highway today, reminding me of this thread. Those Firebirds sure did have a tiny grille and I suspect you are 100% correct that it needed a dam to force air into the radiator for cooling at speed.

But that's really a different issue from using a dam to clean up the aerodynamics of the car. The dirtiest part of a car, especially today, is the undercarriage. Which is what an airdam that is extremely close to the ground can help. I see there are a couple of somewhat anecdotal examples posted of add on aero helping at higher (than highway legal mostly) speeds, which was the point of my original comment. My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.

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My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.

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I like function, I like vintage look, I also am concerned with breakage of the front spoiler. On the street, breakage would be my fault... but on the road course tracks I want function to help for whatever it would be worth -- i'm a "competitor" before I'm a show car guy. Now, I do like the factory split T/A Challenger spoiler on my car because I can slide my floor jack under the front to lift the car (slightly lifting the front bumper just ~1/2 inch to clear the current T/A split spoliers)... and then my jack-handle easily clears between the split front spoiler!!! I feel this is important to me for working on my car, whenever needed. With a full-width solid front spoiler (such as the vintage TRANS AM Cuda spoilers (and maybe eventual Challenger) now available your jack-handle won't work. SO.. I've been thinking of how to make a 3-piece full-width front spoiler whereby the center-section would, perhaps, be flippable (hinged?) with a slight overlap (1-2"?) to each side section.. maybe the center section could be ~12" wide so to allow the floor jack to be pushed under and have the handle able to be used.... function, apperance, and user-friendly.

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My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.

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He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...

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My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.

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He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...

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Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.

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Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.

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Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.

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Isn't this more to counter possible cargoweight in the back?
I just did a Google image-search with "pickup truck" and save for a 2-3 images, I hardly see any rake in the shown pickups.

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jcc - nice work. Mind telling me what the bottom spoiler is adapted from? I have been going to use a 80's Ranger truck lower fascia as a buck to make a fiberglass mold from for my 66 Coronet, but yours looks like it's made from fiberglass?

Sorry about the big pic, don't know why it blows up like that using "properties" from the Moparts pic info...

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I think I hear laughter in the background, but I don't remember, it has been a few years, and your are absolutely correct in that it is "adapted", if you look close, you can see 2 small eyebrow reliefs I had to fill in on the spoiler, maybe that will jog someones memory on what car I got from. Sorry guys. Please post if anybody knows, since I am certain I am going mangle it in my first big off track excursion, under braking

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Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.

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Mine... 5" wide strips of 18ga. steel bolted to aluminum angle attached to the flat flange under the bumper and fenders. Really stuck this thing down at 140+.

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Wonder if you noticed any "drag" increase, since you are running a "limited" class, I guess the only way to really tell in the field would be a coast down test. Every areo trick has a downside, just wondering how much in your case, and would agree whatever it was, its worth it.

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Mine... 5" wide strips of 18ga. steel bolted to aluminum angle attached to the flat flange under the bumper and fenders. Really stuck this thing down at 140+.

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Wonder if you noticed any "drag" increase, since you are running a "limited" class, I guess the only way to really tell in the field would be a coast down test. Every areo trick has a downside, just wondering how much in your case, and would agree whatever it was, its worth it.

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Mine... 5" wide strips of 18ga. steel bolted to aluminum angle attached to the flat flange under the bumper and fenders. Really stuck this thing down at 140+.

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Wonder if you noticed any "drag" increase, since you are running a "limited" class, I guess the only way to really tell in the field would be a coast down test. Every areo trick has a downside, just wondering how much in your case, and would agree whatever it was, its worth it.

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jcc, take your critical crap elsewhere.

The user stated that he liked the result at 140+ mph. If that makes him happy it doesn't matter what the coast down is.
He needed to limit air flow under the car at speed. He got it.

Now, kindly go away.

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I'm pretty sure the OP can speak for himself.

Getting a little obsessed are we, or sorry, is that question hitting a little close to home?

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I'm pretty sure the OP can speak for himself.

Getting a little obsessed are we, or sorry, is that question hitting a little close to home?

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I'm pretty sure the OP can speak for himself.

Getting a little obsessed are we, or sorry, is that question hitting a little close to home?

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Not obsessed. Just tired of reading your same old crap questioning if grass is really green.

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Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?

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Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?

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Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?

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Running fast in a straight line, the car may do OK. The rear lift problem did not show until they got to Daytona with the tighter corners. When they did their pre-season testing at the huge Goodyear oval in San Angelo TX, the car handled well without the spoiler. The turns were such a large radius that the problem had not yet become apparent.

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Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?

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Running fast in a straight line, the car may do OK. The rear lift problem did not show until they got to Daytona with the tighter corners. When they did their pre-season testing at the huge Goodyear oval in San Angelo TX, the car handled well without the spoiler. The turns were such a large radius that the problem had not yet become apparent.

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Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer

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Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer

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If you were looking for more width, a '69 Camaro spoiler is wider than a '67/8 one, incase you didn't know..

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Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer

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If you were looking for more width, a '69 Camaro spoiler is wider than a '67/8 one, incase you didn't know..

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I was looking for some windtunnel-testing videoclips of front and rearspoilers and such, when I stumbled on a number of interesting articles on Autospeed.com about spoiler and improving 'under car' airflow;

Part 1
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2455/article.html

Part 2
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2456/article.html


Earlier articles:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=109937

And...

Undertrays, Spoilers & Bonnet Vents, Part 1
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2159/article.html

Undertrays, Spoilers & Bonnet Vents, Part 2
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2160/article.html?popularArticle

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I 'thought' was able to cheaply fab up a front spoiler for my Dart. Just for kicks, but I found I got my butt kicked by 'geometry' here a bit in the progress.

I went to our local HomeDepot and grabbed a nice large cement bucket. These things here are made of very sturdy, but unbreakable plastic. Perfect for possible groundscraping once in a while I thought.

Once in the garage I started cutting the reinforced top edge and 4-5" down off it. Also made pie-cuts in the lip to straighten out the curvature.
But then I hit a geometric snag. Because of the taper of the bucket, the now 'straightened out' strip, was still curved along it's entire length when flattened out... Duh...
Also the curvature was the wrongway around for it to even remotely fit.
So I cut another strip, but this time from the bottom of the bucket and did a mockup on the car. Secured it with the center valance-bolt in the middle and a number of tie-raps towards the edges.
Not happy about how quickly the strip curves upwards behind the valance, I'm now looking for a 'real' spoiler.

Usually, my first attempt at making something from scratch is pretty much shoddy at best, so with that knowledge I always have better hopes for the second attempt...!

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Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer

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No we don't, that's why I said 'our local' HD.
Had I said 'Gamma' or 'Karwei', as these shops are named here, no-one would have known what I was talking about.

I think I've located a suitable spoiler. Will probably be able to pick it up this saturday.
It's a brand new spoiler, for an '81 Mercedes. My guess is it will be very close in size to the Dart's width.

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Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer

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If you want to get tricky and spend a bit more money, why not get two, and fab a longer one from both?

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No we don't, that's why I said 'our local' HD.
Had I said 'Gamma' or 'Karwei', as these shops are named here, no-one would have known what I was talking about.

I think I've located a suitable spoiler. Will probably be able to pick it up this saturday.
It's a brand new spoiler, for an '81 Mercedes. My guess is it will be very close in size to the Dart's width.

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Picked up the spoiler today and did a quick mockup.

Haven't quite figured out yet what would be the best way to mount it, but the size is very close to the car. Maybe 2-3" too wide at the most outer top edges. But since the material is flexible and can be bend inwards a bit, I don't think this will pose any problems.

Hardest part will probably be how to neatly incorporate the spoiler with the valance and lower fender on the sides.
Perhaps cutting off the upright 'flaps' to the height of the center of the spoiler will give more possibilities.

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Let's add some weight to the topic by including and Imperial with a front spoiler to the mix...


http://www.imperialclub.org/Yr/1972/Wills/page1.htm

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Kenyon hasn't updated that page in years.

I like what he did with the Imperial but I don't like what he did to the Imperial. The interior modifications ruined it for me.

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Are those still available new? I couldn't find any.
...
Thanks, Steve

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I did stumble on this though;

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/merc...ting-apron.html

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I did stumble on this though;

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/merc...ting-apron.html

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I vote please post any propane comments.

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Propane isn't just for BBQs anymore.

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Looks like a kit to build your own 190E-16V.

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A little something for the "more mature" crowd -

http://www.wingswest.com/catalog/Mercede...ont-Bumper.html

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I'm looking to get 1" Torsionbars from JustSuspension to stiffen up the front end a bit more and will look into making a 'substitute' bumpstop by fabbing two adjacent pieces of heathose of something, mounted to the LCA.

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1" bars will sharpen the turn in and maybe corner speed. On the other hand they may be too stiff for an A Body and cause understeer. They will for sure help the high speed stuff.

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Let's add some weight to the topic by including and Imperial with a front spoiler to the mix...


http://www.imperialclub.org/Yr/1972/Wills/page1.htm

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1" bars will sharpen the turn in and maybe corner speed. On the other hand they may be too stiff for an A Body and cause understeer. They will for sure help the high speed stuff.

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Been thinking about that indeed. My car also has a Hellwig front swaybar.
It's got 0.866" (22mm) TBars now.

One of the reasons I recently decided I want a stiffer springrate is because of the car's ride-height, the LCA's are located about 3/4" away from the framerails.
Now that one of the LCA bumpstops has bailed, I have noticed the LCA hits the frame now of then and the temp spoiler currently under the car tends to hit the road a bit more often on speedsbumps. The other bumpstop will fail soon.
The car is mainly used for hardcore daily driving where tackling roundabouts and speedbumps are it's main 'challenges'...