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Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1438630
05/20/13 03:28 PM
05/20/13 03:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,549
Sweden
71redcuda Offline
pro stock
71redcuda  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,549
Sweden
Home made in aluminium.

7712789-nyalysen010.JPG (310 downloads)
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: 71redcuda] #1438631
05/20/13 04:11 PM
05/20/13 04:11 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
super stock
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Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Does anyone know who's car these is? I'd like to see some pictures of the spoiler...


-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Uhcoog1] #1438632
05/20/13 05:08 PM
05/20/13 05:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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Garden Grove, CA
It's an Aussie Valiant...the front spoiler (from the little bit you can see) looks almost like a copy of a Holden Torana one like my car has (factory)

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: jcc] #1438633
05/20/13 06:14 PM
05/20/13 06:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 532
Marion, Ohio USA
kab69440 Offline
mopar
kab69440  Offline
mopar

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 532
Marion, Ohio USA
Quote:

This pic was taken years ago, the concept was the grille was to be blocked off, and only rad air was to enter center opening, and the spoiler was intended to help make that happen plus any other benefits it furnished. For any on track use I intended to extend spoiler with hard rubber lower edge. It was for street and track use.





That's a good looking piece. If it was available, I'd be falling all over myself to order one for my Charger!


Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they are not out to get you. WANT TO BUY- Looking for a CD by 'The Sub-Mersians' entitled "Raw Love Songs From my Garage To Your Bedroom". Also, any of the various surf-revival compilation albums this band has contributed to.
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Skeptic] #1438634
05/20/13 10:17 PM
05/20/13 10:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
Quote:

Quote:

I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.


You are mistaken in that, the air flow is so carefully controlled that some of them will relentlessly overheat if the front spoiler is missing or broken. Even if the cooling fan is on continuously, there is not enough airflow going through the radiator. Some of the more flamboyant packages are aimed at the boy racer crowd, to be sure.




Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Supercuda] #1438635
05/21/13 11:19 AM
05/21/13 11:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,394
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic Offline
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Posts: 4,394
The Pale Blue Dot
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.


You are mistaken in that, the air flow is so carefully controlled that some of them will relentlessly overheat if the front spoiler is missing or broken. Even if the cooling fan is on continuously, there is not enough airflow going through the radiator. Some of the more flamboyant packages are aimed at the boy racer crowd, to be sure.




Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.


Highway speed are where they are the worst, all the air is deflected away from the opening, if you look the "grill" area is really tiny in comparison to the gaping maws that older cars have and placed much lower, really out of the airstream.
You would like an example....well, I have one. It involves aerodynamics, performance(for it's time) and a comedy of errors.
The shop I was working at the time was owned by a Father/Son and the Father had a 3rd gen F-body Trans Am that developed an overheating problem-on the freeway. This car was his pride and joy and used to make high speed runs to Vegas, he had a second home there. He is a mechanic and a damn good one as is his Son, so this would not do. It was a matter of Pride as well as need that it be fixed.
After replacing the radiator, fan switch, the cooling fan (including wiring the fan to run all the time)the problem persisted. Next the heads and finally the engine-yes the engine was rebuilt- basically to stock specs..... still the same.
After all that, it was noticed that the small lip spoiler was broken. It was a modest thing only a couple of inches long, running under the body just behind the lower valance opening, but replacing it fixed the overheat.
Again, as I pointed out in my first post, there are cosmetic aspects to these things, but engineers are driven by the need to control airflow and the Mfgrs spend millions to maximize MPG and any package that gets put on a production car isn't going to cause a significant increase in drag. They can offer them through a "performance division", or just let the aftermarket deal with it.
Most of the double wings, body kits and such have nothing to do with the OE and are so poorly built and engineered that they are laughable.
As gaudy as the Wing cars are, they have very good Cd numbers and are very stable @ high speed.
Take vortex generators, those little triangular looking things that are popping up on the roofs of newer cars, with careful placement and sizing they can reduce drag and increase stability a surprising amount. If you just buy stick on ones and put them anywhere they may do nothing or increase drag. So they are only there for looks if someone decided they would look cool, not if the Aero Engineering team specified where they should be.
Ultimately the only way to KNOW if something is truly effective on my/your/anybodies car is to test it. Unless you have access to a supercomputer or a wind tunnel it's more time consuming ie coast-down tests, taping string all over your car and watching/videoing where and how it moves around, using a Magnehelic gauge to measure pressure points, Etc.

Last edited by Skeptic; 05/21/13 11:29 AM.
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: BigBlockMopar] #1438636
05/22/13 07:24 AM
05/22/13 07:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,463
Answering the call of the wild
T
ThermoQuad Offline
top fuel
ThermoQuad  Offline
top fuel
T

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,463
Answering the call of the wild
Front spoilers work at high speeds based on my years of driving and testing ideas on the road course. No data collection devices or yarn, just a well calibrated seat-of-the-pants-o-meter and observing the operating temps, underhood temps after a run. Spoilers also affect high speed stability. Speeds over 100 mph require a spoiler.
I had a street car [E body] that would tap 130 mph every lap and adding the spoiler made a big difference in cooling and stability.

Some spoiler are better than others, some can be set up to break away. The camero spoiler on a charger is easily installed with the large black plastic push ons for easy break away when you hit that curb...

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: ThermoQuad] #1438637
05/22/13 12:42 PM
05/22/13 12:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
top fuel
Duner  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
I put a Camaro spoiler on my rig to help get the air to stop piling up under the front of it and causing it to become a handful at speed when the front end lifted. It seems to have helped a ton in that department - but it is a pain to work around.


Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Skeptic] #1438638
05/22/13 08:48 PM
05/22/13 08:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
Quote:


Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.


Highway speed are where they are the worst, all the air is deflected away from the opening, if you look the "grill" area is really tiny in comparison to the gaping maws that older cars have and placed much lower, really out of the airstream.
You would like an example....well, I have one. It involves aerodynamics, performance(for it's time) and a comedy of errors.
The shop I was working at the time was owned by a Father/Son and the Father had a 3rd gen F-body Trans Am that developed an overheating problem-on the freeway. This car was his pride and joy and used to make high speed runs to Vegas, he had a second home there. He is a mechanic and a damn good one as is his Son, so this would not do. It was a matter of Pride as well as need that it be fixed.
After replacing the radiator, fan switch, the cooling fan (including wiring the fan to run all the time)the problem persisted. Next the heads and finally the engine-yes the engine was rebuilt- basically to stock specs..... still the same.
After all that, it was noticed that the small lip spoiler was broken. It was a modest thing only a couple of inches long, running under the body just behind the lower valance opening, but replacing it fixed the overheat.
Again, as I pointed out in my first post, there are cosmetic aspects to these things, but engineers are driven by the need to control airflow and the Mfgrs spend millions to maximize MPG and any package that gets put on a production car isn't going to cause a significant increase in drag. They can offer them through a "performance division", or just let the aftermarket deal with it.
Most of the double wings, body kits and such have nothing to do with the OE and are so poorly built and engineered that they are laughable.
As gaudy as the Wing cars are, they have very good Cd numbers and are very stable @ high speed.
Take vortex generators, those little triangular looking things that are popping up on the roofs of newer cars, with careful placement and sizing they can reduce drag and increase stability a surprising amount. If you just buy stick on ones and put them anywhere they may do nothing or increase drag. So they are only there for looks if someone decided they would look cool, not if the Aero Engineering team specified where they should be.
Ultimately the only way to KNOW if something is truly effective on my/your/anybodies car is to test it. Unless you have access to a supercomputer or a wind tunnel it's more time consuming ie coast-down tests, taping string all over your car and watching/videoing where and how it moves around, using a Magnehelic gauge to measure pressure points, Etc.




Interestingly enough, I saw one of those F bodies on the highway today, reminding me of this thread. Those Firebirds sure did have a tiny grille and I suspect you are 100% correct that it needed a dam to force air into the radiator for cooling at speed.

But that's really a different issue from using a dam to clean up the aerodynamics of the car. The dirtiest part of a car, especially today, is the undercarriage. Which is what an airdam that is extremely close to the ground can help. I see there are a couple of somewhat anecdotal examples posted of add on aero helping at higher (than highway legal mostly) speeds, which was the point of my original comment. My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Supercuda] #1438639
05/22/13 11:13 PM
05/22/13 11:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,645
So Near, Yet So Far
topside Offline
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 20,645
So Near, Yet So Far
As far as GM F-body cooling: I ran a Chevy body shop for awhile in the '90s, and whenever the lower spoiler (the 2nd one, black, behind the front cover) was broken off from parking curbs, the Camaros would overheat.
Unrelated to that, but germaine to this discussion: back at the dawn of time I had a '64 Corvair, which had quite a bit of front-end lift on the freeway. I added a 1st-gen Z28 front spoiler and that problem disappeared with no other changes.
I've added front spoilers to a few cars since, and picked up MPG or improved cooling or both, depending on the spoiler placement. The MPG was from guiding the air to the sides rather than having it bouncing off the undercarriage.
I've also vented the hood on 3 vehicles of mine through the years, which also picked up MPG & improved airflow through the engine compartment, reducing underhood temps.

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Supercuda] #1438640
05/24/13 08:48 AM
05/24/13 08:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.




He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1438641
05/24/13 08:50 AM
05/24/13 08:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
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Pale_Roader  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

I like function, I like vintage look, I also am concerned with breakage of the front spoiler. On the street, breakage would be my fault... but on the road course tracks I want function to help for whatever it would be worth -- i'm a "competitor" before I'm a show car guy. Now, I do like the factory split T/A Challenger spoiler on my car because I can slide my floor jack under the front to lift the car (slightly lifting the front bumper just ~1/2 inch to clear the current T/A split spoliers)... and then my jack-handle easily clears between the split front spoiler!!! I feel this is important to me for working on my car, whenever needed. With a full-width solid front spoiler (such as the vintage TRANS AM Cuda spoilers (and maybe eventual Challenger) now available your jack-handle won't work. SO.. I've been thinking of how to make a 3-piece full-width front spoiler whereby the center-section would, perhaps, be flippable (hinged?) with a slight overlap (1-2"?) to each side section.. maybe the center section could be ~12" wide so to allow the floor jack to be pushed under and have the handle able to be used.... function, apperance, and user-friendly.




I had in mind building a T/A style/sized front spoiler for my Challenger, but one full piece across (basically connecting the two halves), maybe a tad larger, and out ov aluminum. I didn't even think about having to jack the car up. Back to the drawing board...

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Pale_Roader] #1438642
05/24/13 07:37 PM
05/24/13 07:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
Quote:

Quote:

My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.




He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...




Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Supercuda] #1438643
05/24/13 08:42 PM
05/24/13 08:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,490
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina Offline
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Posts: 1,490
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
i decided to use a camaro front spoiler with the chin spoilers - not too shabby - was only $20 brand new!






Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Supercuda] #1438644
05/26/13 07:02 AM
05/26/13 07:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.




He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...




Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.




Uh... yyyyeeeaahh.... that was my intention totally. I was so far ahead ov my time... hahahahahahahahahahahahaha


As for these Camaro spoilers... are these the same cheap looking plastic things you see in Classic Industries catalogs? I've handled them and they never struck me as strong enough to withstand any ACTUAL force... more just an aesthetic item. Even the Mopar factory stuff seems flimsy to me. I wouldn't want something giving my valuable downforce blowing off on me at well over 100mph...

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Pale_Roader] #1438645
05/26/13 09:43 AM
05/26/13 09:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
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Nebraska
Mine is fiberglass and has withstood 130 mph without fail. I would test it further but I either run out of road or testicle before hand. The car doesn't get light at all just vibration gets a little scary.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Pale_Roader] #1438646
05/26/13 10:28 AM
05/26/13 10:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
top fuel
Duner  Offline
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Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
The wind pressure at 125 mph is 45# per sq ft if I remember correctly. You have to produce braces that go behind that spoiler to hold the force or it would be no better than a piece of cardboard taped to the nose. You also have to mount it to something that's strong enough to take that force pushing against it with that much leverage.

They do work.

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: Supercuda] #1438647
05/26/13 04:48 PM
05/26/13 04:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar Offline OP
master
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Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
Quote:

Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.





Isn't this more to counter possible cargoweight in the back?
I just did a Google image-search with "pickup truck" and save for a 2-3 images, I hardly see any rake in the shown pickups.

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: BigBlockMopar] #1438648
05/26/13 05:38 PM
05/26/13 05:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger
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Penguin-hating Ginger

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
Quote:

Quote:

Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.





Isn't this more to counter possible cargoweight in the back?
I just did a Google image-search with "pickup truck" and save for a 2-3 images, I hardly see any rake in the shown pickups.




Even with a pallet of wheel outers in the back of my truck, you can still see the front down rake to it. (all stock 2011 Chevy)

Re: Front Spoilers... [Re: OzHemi] #1438649
05/26/13 06:08 PM
05/26/13 06:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
Well, my 05 Ram, my 08 Silverado, the various newer work trucks I've had all have it in person.

that's why the make leveling kits so old schooler's can lift the front end and make it sit level.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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