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Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's #1420377
04/15/13 06:37 PM
04/15/13 06:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 26
Austin, TX
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Northern Cuda Offline OP
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Austin, TX
Recently i have thought I was going to build my spare 360 motor to a 408, but lately i think i rather boost my 5.9 about 12-14LB.

So far here is my parts installed:

2001 Dakota R/T 2wd
360 magnum 8.25-8.75 compression
46RE tranny
4.10 gears in the rear
3" long tube spintech headers
3" spintech duel exhaust X pipe
58mm TB
1.7 rockers
m1 intake manifold (2bbl) I also have a 4bbl in the garage
8mm wires
Stock port/polished magnum heads
180 stat


I plan to buy the following:

Duration @ .050 218 / 226 LSA 114 camshaft from PIE
2500 stall converter
SCT Tuner
GT30R
36LB ford injectors
Front mount
.600 springs
new seals
Forged pistons
2 bar map sensor
Fuel pump/ fuel pressure regulator (suggestions welcomed) (will i need a return line?)

What else am i missing? Not much? Does this look like it will be right? Will my 3inch long tube headers effect me dump exhaust quick enough?

Will the stock heads flow, im not sure the numbers on the port/polished

Ive heard shorty headers were better for turbo builds, im not sure.

I really want this for the street/strip, my plan is to build a high low end torque motor so i can launch hard, then have the snail spool me all the way to the finish line.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.




Last edited by Northern Cuda; 04/15/13 07:47 PM.
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420378
04/16/13 06:05 AM
04/16/13 06:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
pro stock
herkamer  Offline
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Lakewood, Colorado
Looked at doing the same to my R/T. You need a significantly bigger turbo than a GT30, unless you plan on going with twins. I was looking at a single T-72 at 9psi which would support around 600 crank HP and keep it in the efficiency range. 12-14lbs would put you somewhere in the neighborhood of 700-850 HP.

There are probably much better experts than I who can chime in. I spent a bunch of time looking things up and acquiring some things to do it but the truck got wrecked.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: herkamer] #1420379
04/16/13 10:16 AM
04/16/13 10:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,235
Marion Illinois
72d100 Offline
master
72d100  Offline
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Marion Illinois
im gonna keep this bumped because i have a spare 5.9 that may want to replace a big block eventually

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: 72d100] #1420380
04/16/13 11:23 AM
04/16/13 11:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383 Offline
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I would go fully forged on the rotating assembly. crank, rods and pistons. unless you feel real lucky at getting it set up right from the start. I would also consider Meth injection at that pressure, unless you feel the compression of the motor is low enough to be safe under full boost.

Also, look at stainless steel rings over cast or moly.


I helped build a fully forged, stock stroke 360/5.9 for a buddy who was going to feed it 12-14 PSI as well, and we went with Eagle forged crank, I think the rods were Eagle as well, forged I beam if I remember correctly. Pistons were dished forged from Probe, and we used stainless rings.

heads were 2.02 R/T castings, as cast, which flowed around 240 CFM. Stock heads will flow 200 CFM as cast.

He was also going to use Mega Squirt to control the engine, as SCT struggles some when you start to crank up the boost, and you need something with more tuneability to it.

That's all I can provide you, because so sooner than I got the long block buttoned up and ready to drop into his 98 Dakota, he lost interest and sold everything, then bought a cummins


**Photobucket sucks**
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: herkamer] #1420381
04/16/13 11:30 AM
04/16/13 11:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 26
Austin, TX
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Northern Cuda Offline OP
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I really would prefer a single turbo over a duel setup, less piping and arrangement in the engine bay.

I checked out the T-72, i noticed it is considerably less expensive over the one i thought would work.

Been doing my research for about a year now, think i got most of what i need and what kind of work will go into it.

Sorry to hear about your truck, i wrecked my first one and had to restart my build. this time im stock piling all my parts first! Currently in the process of rebuilding my new trucks front end, last owner neglected regular maintenance and now I just ordered all new pulleys.

Thats another thing im worried about, will i need to upgrade my pulley system? Is OEM good enough?

Does anybody know how much torque/HP the tranny can handle before catastrophic failure, with the parts i plan to get and existing?




Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: 70Cuda383] #1420382
04/16/13 11:51 AM
04/16/13 11:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 26
Austin, TX
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Northern Cuda Offline OP
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Austin, TX
Quote:

I would go fully forged on the rotating assembly. crank, rods and pistons. unless you feel real lucky at getting it set up right from the start. I would also consider Meth injection at that pressure, unless you feel the compression of the motor is low enough to be safe under full boost.

Also, look at stainless steel rings over cast or moly.


I helped build a fully forged, stock stroke 360/5.9 for a buddy who was going to feed it 12-14 PSI as well, and we went with Eagle forged crank, I think the rods were Eagle as well, forged I beam if I remember correctly. Pistons were dished forged from Probe, and we used stainless rings.

heads were 2.02 R/T castings, as cast, which flowed around 240 CFM. Stock heads will flow 200 CFM as cast.

He was also going to use Mega Squirt to control the engine, as SCT struggles some when you start to crank up the boost, and you need something with more tuneability to it.

That's all I can provide you, because so sooner than I got the long block buttoned up and ready to drop into his 98 Dakota, he lost interest and sold everything, then bought a cummins





I decided i was going with Eagle the other day.

Just check out that mega squirt website, looks to be a bit pricy, Did he just buy the controller, usb bus cable and solder ever thing together him self? It looks like it gives you ultimate control. I would agree the SCT is a bit lacking.

Do you think 10PSI would be more ideal?

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420383
04/16/13 12:52 PM
04/16/13 12:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383 Offline
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I'm not sure what all is involved in the MS conversion, but I know a lot of the Dakota guys re-use the factory harness and sensors, to include the factory crank sensor, which can help keep costs down. the downside is that you do have to cut the ends off the factory wire harness and solder/pin all the wires to hook up to the MS controller. There's been talk of trying to take a spare PCM and cutting it up for the connectors inside, and making a "jumper harness" to go from the factory wire harness in the engine bay to the MS controller. it would make it much easier to go back to stock if you ever did, but I don't know if anyone's actually done it yet, or if it's even possible (I'm not sure you could do that if the plugs inside the PCM go straight to a computer motherboard)

I want to say most guys spend around $700-800 to get MS up and running, compared to the $350-370 it costs to get SCT with 'unlimited tunes'

on the cam specs, (and this may relate to head flow) the cam we had picked out was a 230/240 on a 114 LSA. but he was also a stick shift truck and didn't have to worry about a torque converter.

As far as keeping SCT, I think anything over 6 psi and you start to run into the limits of what you can do with SCT. you can make it work at 10 psi with the right program writter, but even then, it often takes several tries/tweaks while on a dyno monitoring EVERYTHING.

the guys who do run mild boost and use SCT also convert the factory MAP sensor to a "2-bar MAP" from a SRT Neon to handle manifold vacuum and manifold boost.


**Photobucket sucks**
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: 70Cuda383] #1420384
04/16/13 03:02 PM
04/16/13 03:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
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herkamer  Offline
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When I looked into the SCT, the best option was the Pro Racer's package. It's the same thing a dealer would use to write you a tune, but only for one vehicle. Unlimited tuning and then you write it to the handheld. You are going to need some dyno time to make it work. SCT does offer a tuning class in person in sunny Florida or now I think they do it online as well. Megasquirt is a great option, I have my W350 running on a salvaged Holley ProJection TBI system. For the most part it runs pretty well. Some of the finer things take quite awhile to get it to run factory smooth. So be aware you may be spending copious amounts of time tuning. I think MPI would definitely be easier, and some day I might convert over to a Magnum top end. I think one caveat of using the MS on a newer vehicle is you have to share the sensors unless you plan on ditching all the other computer controlled systems. The factory PCM controls more than just the engine; it controls ABS, airbags, transmission, gauges etc. You ditch that, you lose everything. So what they do is piggyback the MS and trick the factory PCM that all is well so it doesn't throw a million codes.

As far as turbos and PSI, we need to know your HP goal. You can get fairly insane without much turbocharger. The T72 will still be viable up to 1000hp at 23psi. Only with a smaller compressor would you need to run a higher boost pressure, to make up for inefficiency. 650hp at 11psi sounds pretty fun to me!


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: herkamer] #1420385
04/16/13 07:52 PM
04/16/13 07:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 26
Austin, TX
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Northern Cuda Offline OP
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Austin, TX
Quote:




As far as keeping SCT, I think anything over 6 psi and you start to run into the limits of what you can do with SCT. you can make it work at 10 psi with the right program writter, but even then, it often takes several tries/tweaks while on a dyno monitoring EVERYTHING.

the guys who do run mild boost and use SCT also convert the factory MAP sensor to a "2-bar MAP" from a SRT Neon to handle manifold vacuum and manifold boost.




I have seen that before in the forums, completely forgot about the srt4 (FUN CARS!) 2 bar map sensor. (Really hope they come out with the AWD SRT4 Dart)

THE SCT is sketchy at best, ive heard horror stories and success stories.





Quote:

When I looked into the SCT, the best option was the Pro Racer's package. It's the same thing a dealer would use to write you a tune, but only for one vehicle. Unlimited tuning and then you write it to the handheld. You are going to need some dyno time to make it work. SCT does offer a tuning class in person in sunny Florida or now I think they do it online as well. Megasquirt is a great option, I have my W350 running on a salvaged Holley ProJection TBI system. For the most part it runs pretty well. Some of the finer things take quite awhile to get it to run factory smooth. So be aware you may be spending copious amounts of time tuning. I think MPI would definitely be easier, and some day I might convert over to a Magnum top end. I think one caveat of using the MS on a newer vehicle is you have to share the sensors unless you plan on ditching all the other computer controlled systems. The factory PCM controls more than just the engine; it controls ABS, airbags, transmission, gauges etc. You ditch that, you lose everything. So what they do is piggyback the MS and trick the factory PCM that all is well so it doesn't throw a million codes.

As far as turbos and PSI, we need to know your HP goal. You can get fairly insane without much turbocharger. The T72 will still be viable up to 1000hp at 23psi. Only with a smaller compressor would you need to run a higher boost pressure, to make up for inefficiency. 650hp at 11psi sounds pretty fun to me!





As far as the SCT goes, i just know that exchanging hemifevers 'purchased" tune can run into problems, and even if you dyno and go back and forth, the guy who is making the tune is not a the dyno shop to make changes.

I think i may go MS now, im going to give them a call tomorrow and see what they suggest. i def like the idea of having complete control and the fact that it will piggy back of the OEM PCM.

HP wise, i would shoot for 700HP, but honestly i would be VERY happy with 650HP.


Do you guys know if the stock tranny will hold up to that? Doubtful, i think they are limited to 500HP.

Does anybody have a Martin Saine built 46RE or know anybody who does. I have heard really good things about his builds.

http://www.thefastman.com/transmission.php

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420386
04/16/13 11:59 PM
04/16/13 11:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,997
Salem
Grizzly Offline
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Salem
Quote:



Do you guys know if the stock tranny will hold up to that? Doubtful, i think they are limited to 500HP.






It's worth a shot to run it, what do you have to lose? Start with low boost and then dial it up from there, you'll soon find out.

Personally, I think they are tougher than people give them credit for. Stock they can move a 6000 pound 4x4 plus 7000 pounds of trailer so something like your 2wd Dakota should tolerate it (for a while, anyway ).


Mo' Farts

Moderated by "tbagger".
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Grizzly] #1420387
04/17/13 01:32 AM
04/17/13 01:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
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herkamer  Offline
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The SCT Pro Racer package is supposed to be the equivalent of the a total stand alone EMS. You should be able to control any aspect of the engine. Plus you are starting with a factory tune, so it will start, run and drive. You have to dyno it to dial it in, and should have a dyno operator who knows how to tune standalones. Also the class should give you a fair amount of knowledge getting to that point. I don't know what it can and cannot do. I know MS is totally tunable. You would need to get with a MS vendor since it's really an open source project. DIYautotune is a good company.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: herkamer] #1420388
04/17/13 08:19 AM
04/17/13 08:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383 Offline
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SCT is SCT

the PRP is just the program that allows you to write your own tunes on your own computer at home instead of using a tune writer and emailing tunes back and forth.

it's nice to be able to write your own tunes, but the SCT software for dodge is confusing from what I understand.

as far as the guy writting the tunes not being at the dyno...as long as you send him the data from the dyno, there's no reason why he needs to be standing right at the dyno. Heck, I did my tuning on the road. I used a wide band O2 sensor and a data logger that reads Air/fuel ratio, engine RPM, TPS, MAP, etc. I'd go do a few WOT blasts on an empty road, send the file to Sean, he'd read it and adjust the tune accordingly.


**Photobucket sucks**
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420389
04/17/13 05:05 PM
04/17/13 05:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
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Duner  Offline
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Chandler, AZ
Yes. You will want at least a T-70 sized turbo for your 360. That GT30 is way too small.

Don't go with the PRP SCT package unless you already know what it looks like. The user interface is NOT user friendly. Very many people have had good success by going to SCT and using tunes from one of the reputable Mopar specific SCT tuners. It's a completely different animal than the SCT package for any other platform. I would go larger than 36# injectors. Everybody says they are starting conservative - but boost is terribly addictive. Larger injectors don't really cost much more to start with.

I built mine originally with an aux. fuel pump and FMU setup. I recently switched to Megasquirt (MS3X). I am still in awe at how it basically tunes itself with very little "user" input required. You tell it what target AFRs you want - and it works to get to that target as you drive it. I am only now beginning to use some of the other features of the system - and I am still impressed.

Regardless of tuning system - you will still need a wideband O2 sensor to know where you are at. You will also want a boost gauge and a fuel pressure gauge.

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420390
04/18/13 12:30 AM
04/18/13 12:30 AM
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Posts: 26
Austin, TX
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Northern Cuda Offline OP
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Austin, TX
Just a quick update in case anybody is watching or later reads this build thread.

2001 Dakota R/T 2wd
360 magnum 8.25-8.75 compression
46RE tranny
4.10 gears in the rear
3" long tube spintech headers
3" spintech duel exhaust X pipe
58mm TB
1.7 rockers
m1 intake manifold (2bbl) I also have a 4bbl in the garage
8mm JBA spark wires
Stock port/polished magnum heads
180 stat
MSD coil
No slack tension pulley



I plan to buy the following:

Duration @ .050 218 / 226 LSA 114 camshaft from PIE ($450)
2500 stall converter( $600)
MS tuner ($1.1k)
T-70 turbo charger ($650)
42 LB ford injectors ($439)
Front mount (Goona look in junk yard, $350 other wise)
.600 springs ($10)
new seals($15)
Forged pistons, rods, crank: ($800)
deep sump oil pan ($350) Optional
Fuel pump/ fuel pressure regulator (suggestions welcomed) (will i need a return line?)
Wideband O2 sensor ($180)
Boost gauge ($70)
Fuel pressure gauge ($36)
piping($150)
Cleaning of spare 360 lock ($150)


Okay without the MS tuner, I’m looking at about 3.3k which I have right now!

Okay, now my question is. TRACTION!

Do the caltracs really work that well on the Dakotas? What tire size should i run with this setup, how can I achieve the best traction possible? I guess im asking, what would be good for the street and what slicks for the strip.



Last edited by Northern Cuda; 04/18/13 01:50 PM.
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420391
04/18/13 01:46 AM
04/18/13 01:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
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I run Caltracs - but they took a while to figure out, and it took some tweaks to the pinion angle and shocks to make it work best.

I run drag radials on the street and 29" x 12.5" Hoosier slicks at the track. The drag radials work tons better than normal street tires on the street. I couldn't get them to work at the track. I carry extra ballast on the street to help it hook.

It looks like MS3X all assembled with cables would be about $850 or so. No need for a 2-bar MAP with it since it has a 2.5 BAR built into it.

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Duner] #1420392
04/18/13 08:45 AM
04/18/13 08:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383 Offline
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Duner, what gears are you running? I question his choice to go 4.10s ...but I am no turbo guy, so I default to you!

Turbos need engine load to spool up and build boost, right? unlike a supercharger that is RPM dependant.

would his engine be making enough power "NA" to fry the tires right through first gear, especially with 4.10s? in which case, he wouldn't build any boost "off the line"

Obviously you could trans brake or foot brake it on the track to build up your boost against the converter, but what about normal street driving?


**Photobucket sucks**
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: 70Cuda383] #1420393
04/18/13 11:07 AM
04/18/13 11:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
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I'm running the factory 3.92 gears... and keep going to taller and taller tires.

Turbo setups DO like load. First gear most likely be very short, and it will really start to pull in 2nd. One thing though - with a T70, the boost will be almost instant so it won't really matter much. It should be lots of fun on the street.

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Duner] #1420394
04/18/13 01:06 PM
04/18/13 01:06 PM
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Austin, TX
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Northern Cuda Offline OP
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They didnt mention the built in map sensor when i called. Good to know.

Ive heard they are a bit tricky to setup right, but i like being able to adjust things around to my liking.

So i see your located in Chandler AZ, I fly out for business there almost every month, would you mind if i checked out your truck? Lunch is on me or possibly a Asian hooker? lol

Also what about chassis support? Have you added any structural integrity for the frame? Roll cage, ect?


I will be following this guide/build sheet for the next 3 months. Got a fatty 10k commission check coming in i just found out about. So I have my spare block, i have a stock pile of motor parts, I am in the middle of rebuilding the entire front end, (tubular control arms, upper lower ball joints, tie rods, rotors, brakes, rack and pinion, immediate steering shaft)...once this is finished im going to start on the motor right away.

I am also going to do almost all the work my self, except for alignment, dyno, piping, welding (unless i buy a welder, possible MIG), and possible get some help on the tuning.



Anybody know any good v8 turbo shops in austin tx area?

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420395
04/18/13 02:26 PM
04/18/13 02:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
top fuel
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Chandler, AZ
No problem on checking out the truck.

Wiring the system correctly was a little tedious, but was well worth it. There's tons of documentation and support from the guys that have already switched over with these Dakotas. I'd still be trying to figure it out if it weren't for them.

Oh, and just noticed that you will need to add a 50mm wastegate and a blowoff valve to your build as well.

Last edited by Duner; 04/18/13 02:28 PM.
Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Northern Cuda] #1420396
04/18/13 03:53 PM
04/18/13 03:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad Offline
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Quote:

What else am i missing? Not much? Does this look like it will be right? Will my 3inch long tube headers effect me dump exhaust quick enough?

Ive heard shorty headers were better for turbo builds, im not sure.




You won't be able to use the long tube headers at all. Modified shorty headers or custom turbo headers are the only thing you can use.

Re: Questions about turboed 5.9 magnum's [Re: Devilbrad] #1420397
04/22/13 12:07 PM
04/22/13 12:07 PM
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Austin, TX
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Quote:

Quote:

What else am i missing? Not much? Does this look like it will be right? Will my 3inch long tube headers effect me dump exhaust quick enough?

Ive heard shorty headers were better for turbo builds, im not sure.




You won't be able to use the long tube headers at all. Modified shorty headers or custom turbo headers are the only thing you can use.




Dam are you sure? I really like my spintechs! 1k headers! I guess if i sell them they will move forward the build.

JBAs or hookers?

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