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Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
#14087
01/19/05 11:49 AM
01/19/05 11:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,810
Between Houston & Galveston TX
SattyNoCar
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Anyone see it yet? Opinions? Someone has finally taken the time to compare the taller later B-body spindle to the popular A-body piece used in brake upgrades. They mapped out the geometry changes through out the suspensions travel, looked for binding at full travel, etc, etc. They found a few concerns, but for the most part debunked most of the myths floating around. I won't go into great detail here, that's what the article is for, I'll just say that (as some here have said) the later B spindle will work fine despite being taller. Hmmm....maybe now's the time I put my extra spindles on ebay? 
John
The dream is dead, long live the dream.......😥
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14088
01/19/05 12:00 PM
01/19/05 12:00 PM
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Anonymous
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Somebody did that years ago.
Mostly those of us running them for years.
But now since it's in print it must be gospel, except to those that have an ideological axe to grind against MM or tall spindles.
Thor
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14092
01/19/05 02:25 PM
01/19/05 02:25 PM
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Anonymous
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Ahhh, the Dulcich vs. E-booger (Mopar Muscle vs. Mopar Action) war over spindles continues. 
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14093
01/19/05 02:26 PM
01/19/05 02:26 PM
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Got search?
Been pointed out on this very site for a long time and links provided.
Thor
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14094
01/19/05 02:26 PM
01/19/05 02:26 PM
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Berlin, N.J.
abodyjoe
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bill reilly from www.bigblockdart.com wrote that... i'm sure if anyone wanted more info about it he would be happy to answer the questions....
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. www.MoparMisfits.com
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: abodyjoe]
#14095
01/19/05 02:28 PM
01/19/05 02:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Berlin, N.J.
abodyjoe
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It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. www.MoparMisfits.com
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: Michael]
#14098
01/19/05 03:06 PM
01/19/05 03:06 PM
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Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
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I was concerned about the raised roll center also.
Suppose you are in a drag car, with no sway bar and loose shocks and suspension. You hit a greasy spot at half track and get a little sideways. Will that higher roll center hinder your recovery? Will it cause the car to gyrate back and forth until you lose it? Or is it no big deal, won't make any big difference?
BTW, does any one know if software like they used can be downloaded free anywhere?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#14099
01/19/05 03:08 PM
01/19/05 03:08 PM
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Berlin, N.J.
abodyjoe
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if you guys have questions just go to the forums on www.bigblockdart.com and ask bill himself.....
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. www.MoparMisfits.com
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: dezduster]
#14101
01/19/05 05:22 PM
01/19/05 05:22 PM
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taller spindles LOWER the roll center, assuming no other changes.
Thor
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: HemiDave]
#14104
01/19/05 08:29 PM
01/19/05 08:29 PM
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N.E.Ohio
Polarabill
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I ran "F" body spindles on my 64 Polara for about 5 years without incident. Because of the controversy on this site and in the various magazines, when I rebuilt the front suspension, I switched to "A" body spindles. Personally, I could tell no difference in handleing that I could contribute to the spindles. I don't race it, but I do drive it fast and hard. Go with what you are comfortable with.
This would be so much easier if I knew what I was doing...
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: FuryUs]
#14106
01/19/05 09:26 PM
01/19/05 09:26 PM
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e-mail me that article sat 73 , you been crying about being broke , then hit that job , hell you got more money then me now ,cause i can't afford the magizine. But i need to upgrade my 68 RR, with discs, don't want to pay too much you know. jai@koyote.com 
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14109
01/20/05 12:20 AM
01/20/05 12:20 AM
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NY NY
340duster340
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i am sure the taller spindles will work, but i preferr to stick with what the car was designed for. the engineer that designed the suspension probabley forgot more than most of us know and who knows what additionl stress may be added to the front structure of the car from the taller arm.
besides, i have a few sets and they are impossible to sell. everyone wants the a body spindles.
1966 Dart GT
...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: 340duster340]
#14110
01/20/05 12:30 AM
01/20/05 12:30 AM
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Scranton, PA
Montclaire
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Once again, all somebody needs to do is make a revised upper control arm, very, very, VERY similar to the tubular and adjustable versions out there that compensates for the change in geometry and puts things back to stock specs. Not only will they make a profit and sell a whole bunch of them, and not only will we all be able to enjoy the splendor of $15 spindles from the pick-a-part, everyone will be happy and this will never be a point of argument again.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#14112
01/20/05 12:46 AM
01/20/05 12:46 AM
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Scranton, PA
Montclaire
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Quote:
Firm Feel already makes that revised upper control arm.
Then they should start advertising it. Is it just adjustable, or purpose-made?
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: farmboy70]
#14115
01/20/05 01:04 AM
01/20/05 01:04 AM
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Scranton, PA
Montclaire
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Actually, both of you guys are somewhat incorrect. First, both advertise in Mopar Action, and I could find neither company advertised in recent issues of muscle. Second, while they do offer adjustable upper arms and will take custom orders, I'm talking about a bolt-in, ready to go UCA that requires absolutely no thinking. "Install this upper arm on your (fill in the blank) mopar with the tall spindles and you will have the same geometry as if you used your stock or 73-76 a-body pieces." That's what they need to market, and they might even already make it. But that kind of advertising is what's going to sell parts. Then everyone wins.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#14116
01/20/05 01:06 AM
01/20/05 01:06 AM
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Scranton, PA
Montclaire
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Quote:
The Firm Feel UCA is available for taller knuckles. Firm Feel advertises they can build them to your specs.
If they do, they're awful shy about it.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14120
01/20/05 09:36 AM
01/20/05 09:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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Quote:
Quote:
Somebody did that years ago.
Mostly those of us running them for years.
But now since it's in print it must be gospel, except to those that have an ideological axe to grind against MM or tall spindles.
Thor
Great response.  Is there an article out there already that mapped out the diffrences between the two spindles? Yes, a lot of people have said they used them with no problems, but has anyone before taken the time to prove they can be used without problem?
Funny how for all the bashing this subject gets, this post has gotten only two replies so far. Maybe time for a subject line change?
the article was written by Bill Reilley (sp) who does the alterKtion and I thought ran the Big Block Dart site...he knows his suspension stuff, there's a lot of good info in it, and thorough analysis. I'd trust it...
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: Montclaire]
#14121
01/20/05 09:48 AM
01/20/05 09:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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Quote:
Once again, all somebody needs to do is make a revised upper control arm, very, very, VERY similar to the tubular and adjustable versions out there that compensates for the change in geometry and puts things back to stock specs. Not only will they make a profit and sell a whole bunch of them, and not only will we all be able to enjoy the splendor of $15 spindles from the pick-a-part, everyone will be happy and this will never be a point of argument again.
Uhh, the guys over at firm feel already do.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: patrick]
#14122
01/20/05 11:18 AM
01/20/05 11:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,810
Between Houston & Galveston TX
SattyNoCar
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Glad to see some responses!
As for the article having been known over at bigblockdart.com, why hasn't anyone mentioned it before? I can't say I've read ALL the spindle threads here, but the ones I read, there was never any mention of someone having proved the tall spindles will work. Its always turned into a pissing match with a bunch of guys just saying stuff like 'I've used them on my car for years'.
John
The dream is dead, long live the dream.......😥
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14123
01/20/05 11:25 AM
01/20/05 11:25 AM
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City of Champions
Prostock
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Quote:
there was never any mention of someone having proved the tall spindles will work. Its always turned into a pissing match with a bunch of guys just saying stuff like 'I've used them on my car for years'.
What more proof could someone want?
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14126
01/20/05 12:37 PM
01/20/05 12:37 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Glad to see some responses!
As for the article having been known over at bigblockdart.com, why hasn't anyone mentioned it before? I can't say I've read ALL the spindle threads here, but the ones I read, there was never any mention of someone having proved the tall spindles will work. Its always turned into a pissing match with a bunch of guys just saying stuff like 'I've used them on my car for years'.
Then you obviously have NOT read ALL the spindle threads because bigblockdart.com's artical has been mentioned repeatedly, sometimes even by Bill himself who has weighed in on the subject on occasion.
Someone want to explain to my how any UCA redesign that still uses the stock pivot locations is gonna do anything other than lighten your wallet? Cause it ain;t gonna change the roll center unless I am forgetting something.
Thor
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: Montclaire]
#14129
01/20/05 10:55 PM
01/20/05 10:55 PM
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Posts: 27,453
So Cal
autoxcuda
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Quote:
.... I'm talking about a bolt-in, ready to go UCA that requires absolutely no thinking. "Install this upper arm on your (fill in the blank) mopar with the tall spindles and you will have the same geometry as if you used your stock or 73-76 a-body pieces." That's what they need to market, and they might even already make it. But that kind of advertising is what's going to sell parts. Then everyone wins.
That will not exist because an A-arm change ALONE will not do that.
The complete absolute infinitissimal 3-D geometry through it full range of motions will not have every geometrical result absolutely mirrored with a taller A-arm even if everything else is changed.
BUT changes can be made to make the handling and overall resulting behavior the same. Because there are so many input varibles in suspension design, there are many different paths to take to get to the same place.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: SattyNoCar]
#14130
01/20/05 10:56 PM
01/20/05 10:56 PM
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autoxcuda
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The guy TAcare?? from Colorado plotted this out and posted it here more than once. Bill Reily spend the time to measure a car and put the numbers in an impressive computer display. People that have experience in suspension design understand the small height change is not a big deal and will bring a slight camber gain. Why spend 15-30 hours of effort to prove a web arguement? Quote:
Glad to see some responses!
As for the article having been known over at bigblockdart.com, why hasn't anyone mentioned it before? I can't say I've read ALL the spindle threads here, but the ones I read, there was never any mention of someone having proved the tall spindles will work. Its always turned into a pissing match with a bunch of guys just saying stuff like 'I've used them on my car for years'.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#14131
01/20/05 11:01 PM
01/20/05 11:01 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
The UCA is redesigned so the upper ball joint is plumb when used with taller knuckles.
I don't think I understand this. Unless you mean that the UCA ia a touch longer than stock so that the ball joint won't "overangle" as claimed by Ebooger. Of course no one has proven that to be a problem and I believe Dulcich did a little research into ball joint angles and pretty much concluded that wasn't an issue.
Thor
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#14132
01/20/05 11:03 PM
01/20/05 11:03 PM
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autoxcuda
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Quote:
The UCA is redesigned so the upper ball joint is plumb when used with taller knuckles.
you mean the UCA ball joint socket is tilted slightly. So the range of angles the ball joint at factory suspension height is not changed.
But this is not absolutely necessary in reality. But if you were making an new A-arm you should include it and that's why Dick added it. It's a nice to have, but not a must have.
Those UBA ball joint can take a lot of angle. Most every circle track car runs very large angles on those very same K772 ball joints.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
#14133
01/20/05 11:08 PM
01/20/05 11:08 PM
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Scranton, PA
Montclaire
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Quote:
I believe Dulcich did a little research into ball joint angles and pretty much concluded that wasn't an issue
Let's just be honest here. What you meant to say was, "some homeless dude wrote it down on a napkin and gave it to Dulcich, who then just reprinted it verbatim in MM without reading it." I'm not saying it's incorrect information. I'm just saying that I doubt Dulcich concluded anything.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: AndyF]
#14135
01/21/05 03:17 AM
01/21/05 03:17 AM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Correct. Dick tweaked the boss for the upper ball joint a tad when he designed these arms so that they duplicate the static ball joint angle at some presumed ride height. (probably a tad lower than stock if I know the way that Dick thinks)
It doesn't make the geometry the same as stock since the taller knuckle alters that, it is designed to keep the ball joint in a narrower window of angle travel.
would i be correct in assuming that these 'new' arms would 'be off' a little bit on A body spindles?
Last edited by dbdartman; 01/25/05 01:10 PM.
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: 71charger]
#14138
01/21/05 06:00 PM
01/21/05 06:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Pauls69
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i read the bigblock.com article & it was very refreshing to read some actual tests vs old wives tales. although parts of the article were a little out of my depth, the point was it's ok to run later model disk brakes ("B") on our old mopes. what's more dangerous, some nuances that most drivers won't notice, or someone tooling around with 4 wheel drum brakes having to make a panic stop? good work bigblockdart & MM!
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Re: Spindle article in March '05 Mopar Muscle
[Re: Montclaire]
#14141
01/25/05 10:03 AM
01/25/05 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Let's just be honest here. What you meant to say was, "some homeless dude wrote it down on a napkin and gave it to Dulcich, who then just reprinted it verbatim in MM without reading it." I'm not saying it's incorrect information. I'm just saying that I doubt Dulcich concluded anything.
I said exactly what I meant to say. If you got issues use your own words and don't drag me into your problems.
You are one of the people I was referring to with the ideological axe to grind. Your information is less than useful and not based on any FACTS.
So go stroke your ego elsewhere and keep me out of it.
Thor
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I wont browse another thread about this again until a tall-spindle mopar has a horrible,fiery crash as a result of upper ball joint breakage. 