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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1393723
02/27/13 01:54 PM
02/27/13 01:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,779
Mt.Gilead, Ohio
OhioMopar
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,779
Mt.Gilead, Ohio
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Is it going in that cool Challenger? If so, my answer would be simple. 383. I've always thought e-bodies were too hefty to be small block powered. Obviously that isn't a blanket statement. But if you have the 383 already it's a lot less legwork. Unless you enjoy the chase, as well. I like 383's and have had good luck with them. Haven't done the Magnum in a car, but the 360 in my truck didn't have the low end grunt my 400 (not a 383, but a low deck ) had. Same gear, roughly the same tire size. That probably helps in no way. But just my 
1969 Dart GTS 340
1969 Super Bee X9 N-96
1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96
2015 Dodge Dart GT
2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn.
Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: OhioMopar]
#1393726
02/27/13 03:50 PM
02/27/13 03:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873
Chicken coop
dustergirl340
Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
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Posts: 22,873
Chicken coop
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Quote:
I've always thought e-bodies were too hefty to be small block powered.
Our '72 Challenger weighs the same as our '73 Duster. With much worse weight distribution.
I like the room in the engine bay with a small block powered Challenger. It's luxury compared to that same small block in an A-body.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1393727
02/28/13 03:12 AM
02/28/13 03:12 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Manitoba, Canada
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Talking unrebuilt short blocks here, the 360 magnum wins hands down. A 40 year old cast ringed 383 that lived under a carb all its life versus a moly ringed 360 that lived under a clean running efi system. If you've ever taken apart a high miles carb engine versus a high miles efi engine, it's a night and day difference. The 360 will have better ring seal, cleaner pistons and valves and be easier to get a decent compression ratio out of on a budget. As much as I like big blocks, you almost can't find a good running good condition unrebuilt stocker anymore.
I DO have a nice 383... got lucky. But now you're making the new stuff sound even better to me. Didn't know all that stuff. Hmmm...
Just HOW good is that 383? I built a 440 before, an unrebuilt engine, I threw a new set of rings in it, 440source heads, lunati cam, headers. It ran great during normal driving but just didn't make the upper (4000+) rpm power it should have. Upper rpm is where sub-par ring seal really shows itself. Since you already have the 383 and all those parts it's really hard to say sell but we don't know the true condition of the engine. Did you ever pull a head off it? If so, how much ridge was there?
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: patrick]
#1393728
02/28/13 07:53 AM
02/28/13 07:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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Both engines can be made to run, I like the combustion chambers and roller cam in the magnum, I like the big bore and ease of working on the 383. I would base my choice on transmission needs. If you want something with more than 3 gears auto or 4 gears manual it will be much cheaper and easier to go the Magnum route with the factory available overdrives for it.
Sheldon
Yeah... i've always been a big block guy too. I cant think ov a simpler engine to own or at least work on. Never been into the small blocks at all.
But i also like the modern efficiency... and if both engines make 380HP but the Magnum does it on less gas i'll go that way and not look back. I dont need more than 400HP right now... i can win plenty ov races with that. I also like the SOUND ov the Magnums... they have a definitive howl that older engines just dont have. They sound like a new engine. I really like that.
Confused about the OD thing though... i thought it was just as expensive to put a 5-speed behind a small block than a big block? I dont want a NV truck tranny. Am i forgetting something? An OD stick IS part ov the long range plan.
well, a manual tranny, get a 3.9L dakota AX15 bellhousing, and I believe a supra R154 tranny bolts up to it, if you're looking to low-buck it...
Yeah i got all excited about that, until i read that entire 498 page thread on that swap here, and the take home points were that its not as simple as its made out to be. If i was better equipped and had a nice big shop to tie the car up in while i sorted it sure, but in my rainy driveway... i'm looking for something that can fire in a day or two.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#1393729
02/28/13 07:58 AM
02/28/13 07:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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I know you said you don't want the NV trans...mine held just fine with at least 400 ft lbs of torque at the crank...with street tires. I know a guy who's got his reg cab dakota into the 13s on slicks with a supercharged 318 and an NV3500.
if you keep your build mild, the 3500 will work ok.
or, you can source the Supra trans, those are much beefier than the NV3500, and some guys have put them behind their small blocks with the AX-15 bell housing.
but in general, yea, if you go with a TKO or a T-56, it's the same cost regardless of if you go small block or big block, the only part that's different between the 2 is the bell housing and possibly the flywheel depending on how your engine is balanced.
Dont get me wrong, after reading about the NV stuff i got all excited too... the gear spreads alone sold me... but again, not a simple bolt-in, and worse even than the Supra route. I'll hack my floors for a T-56 when the time comes (no time soon...), but not for a NV unit. Its not the power capacity... i doubt i'll exceed 400HP in any incarnation... this is a daily driver to have fun with, not a street incinerator. The NV sounds like a nightmare to fit and the shifter will be off as well.
SOOOO... unless i have the space and time to mess with the Supra install... i guess the OD stick is still gonna cost me dearly. Damn.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1393730
02/28/13 08:04 AM
02/28/13 08:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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Quote:
You also need to find an oil pan for the little engine. With all the stuff you have I would absolutely run the 383. If you were starting from scratch it would be different. The 383 even looks better.
Sheldon
Yeah... plus the mounts, linkage, distributor? manifold/headers, front accessories, and any other lil SB stuff i dont have. I definitely wont be going SB now... to get the thing running... Its more ov a down the road thing... to build a better more reliable commuter/canyon carver to live in this ridiculously expensive province.
Read: i want to drive my Challenger, but REALLY miss the injected 4.6L/5-speed in my old Mustang...
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: OhioMopar]
#1393731
02/28/13 08:12 AM
02/28/13 08:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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Is it going in that cool Challenger? If so, my answer would be simple. 383. I've always thought e-bodies were too hefty to be small block powered. Obviously that isn't a blanket statement. But if you have the 383 already it's a lot less legwork. Unless you enjoy the chase, as well.
I like 383's and have had good luck with them. Haven't done the Magnum in a car, but the 360 in my truck didn't have the low end grunt my 400 (not a 383, but a low deck ) had. Same gear, roughly the same tire size.
That probably helps in no way. But just my
Yes... that is the plan.
My E-body will be lighter than most. If i have to go 383 it should be around 3200lbs empty. It'd be 50lbs less if i didn't have to sell my new fiberglass hood to fund the damn thing...
Speaking ov 360's.... the bone stock (right down to the 2bbl and single exhaust) on my 78 Volare actually surprised me on how good it went. Ridiculously long gears and 3700-3800lbs, and that car still surprised me. The Magnum or 383 should have at least 100HP more, 500-700 less pounds weight, and slightly steeper gearing... I'd be more than happy with that right now.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: DPelletier]
#1393732
02/28/13 08:19 AM
02/28/13 08:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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I'd go with the magnum- The heads will flow better
Nope;
360 Magnum head: 202cfm at .500" lift
194cfm at .600" lift
516 BB head: 209.9cfm at .500" lift
219.5cfm at .600" lift
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/62.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0804_small_block_mopar_engine/viewall.html
Dave
Hmmm... interesting...
But there is more to power than flow. How about velocity? Two different ports nearly the same flow, but one is quite a bit smaller and better designed. Surprised at the exhaust flow on the 516 with those tiny 1.60" valves...
Further, chamber shape/design is very important as well, and this is where (in my opinion) the old B/RB just fails hard. If i was building an engine with zero deck i think the Magnum would shine even brighter in this regard... but thats just hypothesis.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: 2fast4yourBrain]
#1393733
02/28/13 08:26 AM
02/28/13 08:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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I'd say neither.
Find a 400 block and a 440 crank, and the necessary pistons for it and be done with it.
But if I HAD to do either...383. More torque is always better. Extra weight is negligible.
Heh... now you've gone and built me a $3-5000 engine too. I'll get a paypal account if you're buying...
Besides... i dont need 451 cubes. Hell... for what i want to do i dont even need 383...
Funny how the extra weight is negligible... after you aluminize everything on the lowdeck except the heads, it weighs nearly the same as the Magnum. But HOW??? The small block doesn't even have iron waterpump/housing or intake, or steel crank, and everything is smaller, some things a LOT smaller on the SB. How the hell is the 383 even close...??? Weird. Small block Chevys are bloody heavy too. I dont get it.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1393734
02/28/13 08:28 AM
02/28/13 08:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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I've always thought e-bodies were too hefty to be small block powered.
Our '72 Challenger weighs the same as our '73 Duster. With much worse weight distribution.
I like the room in the engine bay with a small block powered Challenger. It's luxury compared to that same small block in an A-body.
Its too bad they didn't make a small-block sized B/RB... then it would be easy to work on too.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1393735
02/28/13 08:35 AM
02/28/13 08:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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Talking unrebuilt short blocks here, the 360 magnum wins hands down. A 40 year old cast ringed 383 that lived under a carb all its life versus a moly ringed 360 that lived under a clean running efi system. If you've ever taken apart a high miles carb engine versus a high miles efi engine, it's a night and day difference. The 360 will have better ring seal, cleaner pistons and valves and be easier to get a decent compression ratio out of on a budget. As much as I like big blocks, you almost can't find a good running good condition unrebuilt stocker anymore.
I DO have a nice 383... got lucky. But now you're making the new stuff sound even better to me. Didn't know all that stuff. Hmmm...
Just HOW good is that 383? I built a 440 before, an unrebuilt engine, I threw a new set of rings in it, 440source heads, lunati cam, headers. It ran great during normal driving but just didn't make the upper (4000+) rpm power it should have. Upper rpm is where sub-par ring seal really shows itself. Since you already have the 383 and all those parts it's really hard to say sell but we don't know the true condition of the engine. Did you ever pull a head off it? If so, how much ridge was there?
You've obviously got higher standards than i do. This is how i do it... buy running engines (preferably original... so no bad mechanics work hiding inside), and dump 'em in cars. Its easy to tell if they're good. Never dropped in a good one yet and had a bad surprise. This 383 came from a nice car who's owner i knew, and i'm not cracking a gasket on it. That ALLLLLLLLWAYS leads to more work and more money. Its amazing how far you can go on 'i'd rather not know'... heh heh...
I'm sure it will burn some oil after time, the Mopars always do. Buying used is always a gamble, even in this case, but from what i've read here so is spending thousands on a big fancy build. This way if it goes bad i'm out a free 383 and just have to feed the crop-duster while i look for another drop-in. My budget for this is about $300-500 tops.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1393736
02/28/13 11:32 AM
02/28/13 11:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,970
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,970
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
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I'd go with the magnum- The heads will flow better
Nope;
360 Magnum head: 202cfm at .500" lift
194cfm at .600" lift
516 BB head: 209.9cfm at .500" lift
219.5cfm at .600" lift
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/62.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0804_small_block_mopar_engine/viewall.html
Dave
Hmmm... interesting...
But there is more to power than flow. How about velocity? Two different ports nearly the same flow, but one is quite a bit smaller and better designed. Surprised at the exhaust flow on the 516 with those tiny 1.60" valves...
Further, chamber shape/design is very important as well, and this is where (in my opinion) the old B/RB just fails hard. If i was building an engine with zero deck i think the Magnum would shine even brighter in this regard... but thats just hypothesis.
The numbers above are intake at 2 different lifts , not exhaust . the stock 516 exh at .500 lift was something in a 135 range ...
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1393737
02/28/13 11:34 AM
02/28/13 11:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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I'd go with the magnum- The heads will flow better
Nope;
360 Magnum head: 202cfm at .500" lift
194cfm at .600" lift
516 BB head: 209.9cfm at .500" lift
219.5cfm at .600" lift
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/62.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0804_small_block_mopar_engine/viewall.html
Dave
Hmmm... interesting...
But there is more to power than flow. How about velocity? Two different ports nearly the same flow, but one is quite a bit smaller and better designed. Surprised at the exhaust flow on the 516 with those tiny 1.60" valves...
Further, chamber shape/design is very important as well, and this is where (in my opinion) the old B/RB just fails hard. If i was building an engine with zero deck i think the Magnum would shine even brighter in this regard... but thats just hypothesis.
The numbers above are intake at 2 different lifts , not exhaust . the stock 516 exh at .500 lift was something in a 135 range ...
Well that was a brainfart bad enough to smell... Hey, its late and i should be in bed.
How does the stock 516 exhaust compare to the 360 Magnum then?
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1393738
02/28/13 01:19 PM
02/28/13 01:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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I'd go with the magnum- The heads will flow better
Nope;
360 Magnum head: 202cfm at .500" lift
194cfm at .600" lift
516 BB head: 209.9cfm at .500" lift
219.5cfm at .600" lift
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/62.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0804_small_block_mopar_engine/viewall.html
Dave
Hmmm... interesting...
But there is more to power than flow. How about velocity? Two different ports nearly the same flow, but one is quite a bit smaller and better designed. Surprised at the exhaust flow on the 516 with those tiny 1.60" valves...
Further, chamber shape/design is very important as well, and this is where (in my opinion) the old B/RB just fails hard. If i was building an engine with zero deck i think the Magnum would shine even brighter in this regard... but thats just hypothesis.
The numbers above are intake at 2 different lifts , not exhaust . the stock 516 exh at .500 lift was something in a 135 range ...
Well that was a brainfart bad enough to smell... Hey, its late and i should be in bed.
How does the stock 516 exhaust compare to the 360 Magnum then?
It's all there in the links I posted, but here you go! 
516 exh .5" 138.2 CFM
.6" 139.4 CFM
Magnum exh .5" 148 CFM
.6" 150 CFM
...and just for kicks, the much maligned 906's
Intake @ 0.5" 233.9 CFM
@ 0.6" 235.3 CFM
Exhaust @ 0.5" 155.2 CFM
@ 0.6" 157.6 CFM
..and yes, I know that there is more to head performance than flow, though it is the number that dictates maximum performance levels. As far as the Magnum's better exh. vs. the 516's better intake numbers...  probably depends on exhaust, cam, etc.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: DPelletier]
#1393739
02/28/13 01:59 PM
02/28/13 01:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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I NEVER look at lift at or above .500" if I'm not installing a cam over .600" lift.
Even with a .509" cam I'm not going to look at .500" flow. It's useless.
I want to see flow at .400" to .450" for usable info.
Can you tell me how long your cam stays open above .500" lift?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: feets]
#1393740
02/28/13 02:05 PM
02/28/13 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,970
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
I NEVER look at lift at or above .500" if I'm not installing a cam over .600" lift.
Even with a .509" cam I'm not going to look at .500" flow. It's useless.
I want to see flow at .400" to .450" for usable info.
Can you tell me how long your cam stays open above .500" lift?
 all the lift before max lift is more important , the valve sees those lifts twice while on the intake stroke.
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Re: 360 Magnum vs 383... What would make more power?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1393742
02/28/13 02:18 PM
02/28/13 02:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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I dunno, but I think port size, velocity, etc. is all moot. CFM is CFM. it's a measure of volume per time. the more volume per time you move, the more power you can make, regardless of whether it's a super high speed velocity port with small cross sectional area, or a big fat wide port with very slow speed.
(obviously, as long as speed is fast enough to not cause the fuel vapor to fall out of suspension, and not so fast that you go turbulent)
**Photobucket sucks**
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