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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: mickm]
#1392841
04/09/13 09:41 PM
04/09/13 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
sogtx
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
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Quote:
Quote:
Okay, if I understand what you did, bottom = 0, left = .012, top= .002, right = -.013. TIR vertically is 0.002, off center is 0.001, no change necessary. TIR horizontally is .025, off center is .0125. The 0.014 dowels would get you within about 0.0015 off center, the 0.010 dowels within about .0025 off center. I'd use the 0.014 choice. But I'm anal. 
i think anality wins out here. i agree. i may as well go for it and get it as close as possible, and yes, if i also understand things correctly, what you have stated above is correct.
well, only one more week while i wait for parts!
until the next snafu, that is!
Ugh .. What a pain in the butt , the browell tool checks
Squareness and alignment , best 130 i ever spent .
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: fuseable]
#1392849
04/10/13 06:48 AM
04/10/13 06:48 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
sogtx
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
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I machined mine myself to match ( it came chevy style ) the id of the retainer opening . Mine us verrrry tight . +~ a couple thousandths
If your bh is not square , theres no way the collar is slipping on and through . The collar is about an inch
Thick . Thats enough to know if youre square and concentric .
If you really want to second guess square a flat
Edge across the bh and collar to verify any high spots .
If youre not square , then you may need to break
Out with the the correct measuring tools to shim and tgen check with the browel tool , but ..
Youre more likely to be using dowels than shims .
I wouldnt want to shim for squareness ..
My clutch shop in rochester here said that
Many bellhousings have been decked perfectly flat by machine shops. But not much to shave off before causing other problems.
If youre block is not square , then either you should reblueprint
Or i guess shim ..
Last edited by sogtx; 04/10/13 10:19 PM.
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: sogtx]
#1392850
04/11/13 11:58 AM
04/11/13 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
My clutch shop in rochester here said that
Many bellhousings have been decked perfectly flat by machine shops. But not much to shave off before causing other problems.
If youre block is not square , then either you should reblueprint
Or i guess shim ..
I have the 383 for my stroker in getting some work right now and I'm having the shop kiss the bellhousing surface to make sure it is parallel to the crank line since the block was either align honed or align bored , don't remember which.
If it's not square then I know it's the bellhousing and I'll deal with it .
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: Stanton]
#1392852
04/11/13 08:17 PM
04/11/13 08:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,552
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,552
Rittman Ohio
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It's always a good idea to have an aftermarket steel bell blanchard ground just to make sure that part of the drive train is correct. That way if you do have a clutch issue or premature bearing wear you know what it isn't  I have seen a fair number of posts on here about guys that have found the block face not square with the crank flange  I checked my last 2 builds that I knew were going to be stick cars and they were both just under .002 measured with a "known good" bell and my own tool that holds the dial indicator very rigid bolted to the crank instead of a mag base unit. My point being as long as you know the bell is flat and true you can trust your measurements at the retainer pilot  Gus 
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: Stanton]
#1392853
04/11/13 10:29 PM
04/11/13 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
sogtx
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
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Quote:
I'd be curious to know what machine the average automotive machine shop would use to end-mill a block. Likewise, I'd like to know what the fixture to hold it looks like since you'd want to register off the main bores.
With all this talk about the block not being square (which I find hard to believe), why hasn't anybody suggested checking it ?!?! It can be done very easily with the dial indicator and magnetic base using a slightly longer arm to get the indicator out to that block surface. This is a hell of a lot less hassle and way cheaper than having sh!t machined on a whim!
Not sure what you referred to on a whim , but whatever . Maybe shoddy machine work on a block. ?
I hate setting up the gage, my time is valuable .
And i refuse to use a harbor freight gage.
if referring to my no brainer gage , its saved me hours
And its reliable and cheap.
The prostockers / top fuel guys use it on every round .
A couple thousandths might mean a 10 th . Or more.
it would be nice to machine a bolted fixture to hold the dial indicator.
Magnetic bases do suck . Someone once told me you
Should repeat the procedure 2-3 times to make
Sure it bolts together the same way each time .
A little paint on the mating surfaces might throw it off.
I guess a good machine shop would be able to square a block
Or Anything up , but i guess off the crank is probably
The truest measure to gage off.
I guess thats why some guys
Run remarkable times , some have all the hp in the
World and run crap . Some clutches and pilot bearings last years , some only a couple .
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: Stanton]
#1392854
04/12/13 01:08 AM
04/12/13 01:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I'd be curious to know what machine the average automotive machine shop would use to end-mill a block. Likewise, I'd like to know what the fixture to hold it looks like since you'd want to register off the main bores.
With all this talk about the block not being square (which I find hard to believe), why hasn't anybody suggested checking it ?!?! It can be done very easily with the dial indicator and magnetic base using a slightly longer arm to get the indicator out to that block surface. This is a hell of a lot less hassle and way cheaper than having sh!t machined on a whim!
sogtx , I'm sure he is bagging on me ... as usual 
The shop that has my block has a Rottler 769 machining center , same or similar to what Chenoworth was using for their "Block in a Bag" fully remachined block offer , and the same that Performance Only caught a load of crap for because he didn't offer it up first  .
I'm ASSuMEing they are registering this off the main line , I'll be on the phone in the morning giving them the size of the Crane rollers so they can hone the lifter bore bushing to size so I will make sure that they are doing this off the main line , the mains on this block have been reworked so I want to make sure that the rear of the block is perpendicular to the crank line as the car is a 4 speed and I don't want to have to cut up the nickle deposit return soda cans to correct it ...
The other 383 I just had decked was not square on the decks , and neither was this block, if the decks are off why would, or should, I ASSuME that all the other machined surfaces are square?
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: sogtx]
#1392855
04/12/13 06:38 AM
04/12/13 06:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,360
PA
70HemiGTX
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,360
PA
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Quote:
Quote:
I'd be curious to know what machine the average automotive machine shop would use to end-mill a block. Likewise, I'd like to know what the fixture to hold it looks like since you'd want to register off the main bores.
With all this talk about the block not being square (which I find hard to believe), why hasn't anybody suggested checking it ?!?! It can be done very easily with the dial indicator and magnetic base using a slightly longer arm to get the indicator out to that block surface. This is a hell of a lot less hassle and way cheaper than having sh!t machined on a whim!
Not sure what you referred to on a whim , but whatever . Maybe shoddy machine work on a block. ?
I hate setting up the gage, my time is valuable .
And i refuse to use a harbor freight gage.
if referring to my no brainer gage , its saved me hours
And its reliable and cheap.
The prostockers / top fuel guys use it on every round .
A couple thousandths might mean a 10 th . Or more.
it would be nice to machine a bolted fixture to hold the dial indicator.
Magnetic bases do suck . Someone once told me you
Should repeat the procedure 2-3 times to make
Sure it bolts together the same way each time .
A little paint on the mating surfaces might throw it off.
I guess a good machine shop would be able to square a block
Or Anything up , but i guess off the crank is probably
The truest measure to gage off.
I guess thats why some guys
Run remarkable times , some have all the hp in the
World and run crap . Some clutches and pilot bearings last years , some only a couple .
I went and bought a long bolt, removed one of my flywheel bolts, and threaded it in to mount my dial indicator. Those wonderful magnetic bases  kept moving on the flywheel surface. I then used hose clamps and secured one of the "arms" that came with the dial idicator to it so that nothing moved and then got some real readings. It didn't take long once I got this accomplished and had real readings I could trust.
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: Stanton]
#1392859
04/29/13 01:13 PM
04/29/13 01:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Quote:
I'd be curious to know what machine the average automotive machine shop would use to end-mill a block. Likewise, I'd like to know what the fixture to hold it looks like since you'd want to register off the main bores.
With all this talk about the block not being square (which I find hard to believe), why hasn't anybody suggested checking it ?!?! It can be done very easily with the dial indicator and magnetic base using a slightly longer arm to get the indicator out to that block surface. This is a hell of a lot less hassle and way cheaper than having sh!t machined on a whim!
Another Rottler user here. On the F-68A it's a simple operation and they index off the cranks and cam centerlines for parallel to the crank, and have the perfectly-perpendicular-to-base 1.5" thick end plate. Errors in timing cover and bellhousing machinging are just as common as deck height, mains, and lifter bore issues. A good shop (nevermind a great shop) will have equipment that can do this easily. IMO an "average" shop should be avoided unless you have better than "average" luck.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: 4 speed bell housing alignment questions
[Re: moper]
#1392860
04/29/13 02:56 PM
04/29/13 02:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'd be curious to know what machine the average automotive machine shop would use to end-mill a block. Likewise, I'd like to know what the fixture to hold it looks like since you'd want to register off the main bores.
With all this talk about the block not being square (which I find hard to believe), why hasn't anybody suggested checking it ?!?! It can be done very easily with the dial indicator and magnetic base using a slightly longer arm to get the indicator out to that block surface. This is a hell of a lot less hassle and way cheaper than having sh!t machined on a whim!
Another Rottler user here. On the F-68A it's a simple operation and they index off the cranks and cam centerlines for parallel to the crank, and have the perfectly-perpendicular-to-base 1.5" thick end plate. Errors in timing cover and bellhousing machinging are just as common as deck height, mains, and lifter bore issues. A good shop (nevermind a great shop) will have equipment that can do this easily. IMO an "average" shop should be avoided unless you have better than "average" luck.
Just had this done in a Rottler 69 , block was originally done in a CNC , I assume Rottler ??? the bellhousing surface was off .012 on my 69 383 HP block.
Guess I could have just used a soda can to fix that
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