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Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Curt] #1376584
01/27/13 10:19 PM
01/27/13 10:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,348
Mt.Vernon ,Ohio
VernMotor Offline
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Mt.Vernon ,Ohio
You could have that pulley/reluctor balanced . would not be a big deal. that is if you was worry about it. be nice to at lease see if it is off much anyhow.

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: VernMotor] #1376585
01/27/13 11:14 PM
01/27/13 11:14 PM
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Tampa
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DusterDave Offline
top fuel
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Tampa
Quote:

You could have that pulley/reluctor balanced . would not be a big deal. that is if you was worry about it. be nice to at lease see if it is off much anyhow.



That's true, and a good idea. When Dan at Performance Only built my stroker smallblock, he neutral balanced the flexplate and the harmonic damper. Both parts were out of balance, believe it or not. Assume nothing!


Gone to the dark side with an LS3 powered '57 Chevy 210
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: DusterDave] #1376586
01/28/13 12:17 AM
01/28/13 12:17 AM
Joined: May 2005
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merrill, wisconsin
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voigtspeed Offline
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merrill, wisconsin
Interesting stuff keep it coming...........

Anyone can buy their parts a true hot rodder will make them!


ACCELERATION SPECIALIST
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: DusterDave] #1376587
01/28/13 02:05 AM
01/28/13 02:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,766
Central Valley, CA.
Quicksilver440 Offline OP
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Central Valley, CA.
Thats a good idea about balancing it..no big deal to pull it off and have it checked, I think I'll do that.

As far as the cam signal that is required by the 411 LS computer, it is a 1X hall effect signal. All the computer needs to know from the cam sensor (at least combined with the 24X crank reluctor) is if the Engine is on the Compression Stroke or the Exhaust Stroke.

The 24X crank reluctor shown on page one has a very unique pattern which lets the PCM know the crank position, just not if it's on the compression or exhaust stroke. The PCM doesn't even really need the Cam signal to run (you could just unhook it and turn off the codes in the computer), but the engine wouldn't start as easy. It would attempt to start by guessing what stroke the engine is on....and if it didn't start within so many seconds, it would try the opposite stroke.

The later LS PCM's use a 58X reluctor and a 4X cam signal....this is not what I'm using and is not commonly used in these type of conversions.

Here is the 24X reluctor pattern as seen by an oscilloscope:

7564307-ls1-pattern.jpg (832 downloads)
Last edited by Quicksilver440; 01/28/13 02:09 AM.
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376588
01/28/13 03:24 AM
01/28/13 03:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
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Charleston
smells like a thread that makes the archives to me

awesome work


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: sixpackgut] #1376589
01/28/13 10:52 AM
01/28/13 10:52 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,558
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
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Downtown Roebuck Ont


Kevin

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Twostick] #1376590
01/28/13 02:18 PM
01/28/13 02:18 PM
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Temperance, MI
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prochargedhemi Offline
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Temperance, MI
there was an efi build years ago where they were using a milodon or keith black gear drive. Epoxied a magnet on the cam gear and mounted the sensor right to the cam cover.

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Curt] #1376591
01/28/13 02:28 PM
01/28/13 02:28 PM
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Posts: 928
NC
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SLOW67 Offline
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BUMP I'm going to follow everything closely on here as I have already bought my LS harness Mods this need to be archived

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: SLOW67] #1376592
01/28/13 02:30 PM
01/28/13 02:30 PM
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NC
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SLOW67 Offline
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BTW I'm going to be trying this with a drive by wire harness

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: prochargedhemi] #1376593
01/28/13 05:16 PM
01/28/13 05:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,766
Central Valley, CA.
Quicksilver440 Offline OP
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Central Valley, CA.
Quote:

there was an efi build years ago where they were using a milodon or keith black gear drive. Epoxied a magnet on the cam gear and mounted the sensor right to the cam cover.




Here's what I envisioned for a hidden 1X signal (I didn't really come up with this on my own). Take the cam sprocket and epoxy or drill and tap and attach with screws a 1X reluctor straight to the gear. Then attach the semi/flush sensor to the timing cover to read the signal. I plan to test fit this on my spare motor soon to see if there is enough clearance between the back of the waterpump housing and the timing cover for the sensor. This would a real clean way to get the signal. Here's a pic of a similar one (the large U shaped area around 180 degrees of the sprocket would act as the reluctor):

7564847-1Xtiminggear.jpg (517 downloads)
Last edited by Quicksilver440; 01/28/13 05:17 PM.
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376594
01/28/13 05:35 PM
01/28/13 05:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,766
Central Valley, CA.
Quicksilver440 Offline OP
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Again...I didn't come up with this, this was done by "EFI connection" in order to convert the LT1 Chevy cars to use the LS PCM. Here's the sensor they used. It may be too deep though...so we will see.

Last edited by Quicksilver440; 01/28/13 05:36 PM.
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376595
01/28/13 05:45 PM
01/28/13 05:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,766
Central Valley, CA.
Quicksilver440 Offline OP
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Central Valley, CA.
Here is my attempt at a hidden reluctor, it is a 24X reluctor off a BB Chevy that fits on the crank snout. The problem is that the BB Chevy crank snouts are a larger diameter than the BB mopar so there is more play than I am comfortable with. If that reluctor is not centered on the crank snout, then the clearance between the reluctor teeth and the Crank Sensor would vary during rotation. Anybody know a easy way to make the hole smaller and maintain a key way? It is made of powdered metal, if that makes a difference....

Then the problem would be how to add a crank sensor to the bottom of the timing cover, it doesn't really land in a good location on the cover during my mockups....also, I would want some level of adjustment with the sensor and the keyway on a BB chevy and a BB mopar is not the same if I remember correctly. So the reluctor would need another keyway cut (but that's no big deal). Also, the balancer snout would have to be cut to keep pulley alignment, but again, thats no big deal.

7564885-24x.jpg (1073 downloads)
Last edited by Quicksilver440; 01/28/13 05:47 PM.
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: SLOW67] #1376596
01/28/13 05:49 PM
01/28/13 05:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,766
Central Valley, CA.
Quicksilver440 Offline OP
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Quote:

BTW I'm going to be trying this with a drive by wire harness




Are you planning on using Drive-by-wire itself? Or are you just using a drive-by-wire harness? No big deal to just use the harness with a Drive-by-Cable throttle body, as you just have to add a few wires and reposition some pins in the connectors, etc. Drive-by-wire it's self would present a new bunch of issues (but it could be done).

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376597
01/28/13 08:37 PM
01/28/13 08:37 PM
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NC
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SLOW67 Offline
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I was wanting to use the DBW itself. I think it would clean up the install and give me more control over the gm torque manage. What problems will I run into? I'm still in the parts gathering stage so It wouldn't hurt me too much. I already have a TAC module and a pedal for this harness too.

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: SLOW67] #1376598
01/28/13 10:40 PM
01/28/13 10:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,766
Central Valley, CA.
Quicksilver440 Offline OP
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Quote:

I was wanting to use the DBW itself. I think it would clean up the install and give me more control over the gm torque manage. What problems will I run into? I'm still in the parts gathering stage so It wouldn't hurt me too much. I already have a TAC module and a pedal for this harness too.




What car/truck and year did the TAC Module and Pedal/harness come out of? That dictates what model PCM you should run for compatibility sake.

The 99-2002 Vettes used DBW and the 411 24X/1X PCM.....but most LS conversion shops prefer to use drive by cable whenever possible for simplicity, etc. It can be done DBW...I just don't know as much about those systems. Most people prefer to just turn off torque management (which I think retards timing during shifts), which I'm not sure how you could make it work with a mopar transmission...but maybe it's possible.

Last edited by Quicksilver440; 01/28/13 10:55 PM.
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376599
01/29/13 01:19 AM
01/29/13 01:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,766
Central Valley, CA.
Quicksilver440 Offline OP
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Ok...I still havn't got to the Wiring harness and the PCM tuning stuff. But for now, Let's talk economics..... what if I told you that you could do this EFI setup for as little as $700? (not counting fuel pump...add $113 for a Walbro 255 which is the most common performance LS1 upgrade pump)

Obviously, higher HP setups will cost more than a solid 450-500 HP system due to the cost of injectors, aftermarket throttle bodies, etc. Forced induction could get away with stock throttle bodies in a pinch too.

Attached is a spreadsheet showing my costs other than the fuel system for my motor. I make about 450 hp at the wheels.....I have also included the costs using all stock parts and doing things yourself which is around $700. These prices are very realistic as they are what I actually paid, but I'm quite the bargain hunter and I spent weeks looking for good deals, etc.

Also, remember that this replaces your carb, intake and ignition system. I paid about $150 for my used Holley 850 DP, $125 for my Holley SD intake used, and $275 for my MSD digital 6+. Thats $575 using a used intake and carb.

Here you go (click the attachment link above and it gets big enough to read):

7565507-EFIcostspic2.jpg (568 downloads)
Last edited by Quicksilver440; 01/29/13 01:28 AM.
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376600
01/29/13 07:13 AM
01/29/13 07:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 208
Norrland, Sweden
Swedcharger67 Offline
enthusiast
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Norrland, Sweden
Quote:


Here's what I envisioned for a hidden 1X signal (I didn't really come up with this on my own). Take the cam sprocket and epoxy or drill and tap and attach with screws a 1X reluctor straight to the gear. Then attach the semi/flush sensor to the timing cover to read the signal. I plan to test fit this on my spare motor soon to see if there is enough clearance between the back of the waterpump housing and the timing cover for the sensor. This would a real clean way to get the signal. Here's a pic of a similar one (the large U shaped area around 180 degrees of the sprocket would act as the reluctor):




I think the cam wheel style pictured would work well with an inductive sensor. Myself I'm currently planning for a Hall type sensor and it will need a magnet.


Martin, 67 Charger, 512 cui, E85, MegaSquirt MS3X sequential ignition & injection
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376601
01/29/13 11:27 AM
01/29/13 11:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1 Offline
master
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South-Central (Sebring), FL
Quote:

...what if I told you that you could do this EFI setup for as little as $700?



What if I told you that your thread is arguably hands down the best Moparts technical how-to ever.

TWhen finished this should be pinned at the top of the Tech Archives section.

Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: Quicksilver440] #1376602
01/29/13 12:07 PM
01/29/13 12:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,937
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Here is my attempt at a hidden reluctor, it is a 24X reluctor off a BB Chevy that fits on the crank snout. The problem is that the BB Chevy crank snouts are a larger diameter than the BB mopar so there is more play than I am comfortable with. If that reluctor is not centered on the crank snout, then the clearance between the reluctor teeth and the Crank Sensor would vary during rotation. Anybody know a easy way to make the hole smaller and maintain a key way? It is made of powdered metal, if that makes a difference....

Then the problem would be how to add a crank sensor to the bottom of the timing cover, it doesn't really land in a good location on the cover during my mockups....also, I would want some level of adjustment with the sensor and the keyway on a BB chevy and a BB mopar is not the same if I remember correctly. So the reluctor would need another keyway cut (but that's no big deal). Also, the balancer snout would have to be cut to keep pulley alignment, but again, thats no big deal.




How about removing the part that connects to the crank snout and attaching the reluctor to an oil slinger ?

Great write up , I'd definitely want to do something like this considering the cost.

I don't see oxy sensors listed on the 700 budget side ?

Last edited by JohnRR; 01/29/13 12:12 PM.
Re: My 440 EFI- Coil on Plug & LS PCM ignition project [Re: JohnRR] #1376603
01/29/13 12:25 PM
01/29/13 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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dogdays Offline
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Check out the Ford cam sensor from a '90s OHC motor. It's simple.

R.

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