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Stock Temp Gauge Questions #1360506
12/29/12 11:00 AM
12/29/12 11:00 AM
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North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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Guys,

I finally have my gauges back from Instrument Specialties and got everything hooked up. However I wanted to run something by the gurus here to see if I have a problem or not.

I noticed that when the motor is warming up, it gets just about pegged to the "H" on the gauge before the t-stat opens. The T-stat is a stock temp (195) I believe. Once it opens, the temp gauge drops almost immediately to the top of the normal range.

Is this how the factory intended it? Is 195 really the top of the gauge where the motor is "overheating"? This seems a bit low to me. I am assuming the gauges are calibrated correctly as they just got back from the "pros". Enginer harness is brand new repro and the the sender itself was replaced about 5 years ago but has very little actual runtime on it.

I havent run the car much past warm up and some very short drives (been battling another issue) but seems in cool weather (50-60 dgerees) the motor seems to stay near the hi side of the normal range on the gauge.

I know I can swap in a 180 t-stat which I may do later but I don't want to mess with it if I don't have a problem...

Thoughts? Ideas?

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360507
12/29/12 02:56 PM
12/29/12 02:56 PM
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Andrewh Offline
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totally based on resistance of the sending unit.
changing sending units for me changed where it sits "normal" vs hot.
changing the gauge from one cluster to another did the same.

as long as your temps are actually 195 ish, then I would not worry about how it looks on the gauge. it isn't an acurate reading, just a guide to let you know when something is wrong.

you can try various sending units to see if you can find one that is just right, but it will probably be hit or miss.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360508
12/29/12 03:02 PM
12/29/12 03:02 PM
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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195 is pretty hot for an old car. I like to use 180*


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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360509
12/29/12 03:12 PM
12/29/12 03:12 PM
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Pendleton NY
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terzmo Offline
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what is top of normal range ??? I get ALOT of flak about old cars running temps....I guess driving them since the early 60's doesn't count with some BUT..old cars don't like high temps like new can handle. When My gauge gets to 200, I start to worry...at 210...I'm getting ready to shut it down. Optimum temp for the old cars is about 185 plus or minus a bit. A t stat is only going to restrict flow at temps under it's rating. I would never run a 195 in an old car...180 is the most and I prefer a 170 as I want coolant circulating as soon as possible. In the 50's...here in WNY, people would actualy remove the stat in the summer. The stat only gets a car to warm the block faster so people can get heat in cold weather sooner. (you can't run a new car without one as I have found)The inner range of a mechanical, stock, 1960's car is the normal operating range after warmup..top center is around 185...the range is a low around 170 to a high of 195 give or take a few. BUT...some claim they are running an old car at temps of 230 + and are very happy...so be it...not this guy


and..ask the guys at the track how there mopar runs at 215+ vs 185 degrees...alot of lost horsepower and engine failure...heat is potentialy the biggest enemy of an engine.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360510
12/29/12 03:49 PM
12/29/12 03:49 PM
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Salem
Grizzly Offline
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195 should leave you somewhere in normal operating range. Even on the new vehicles with 195's the needle has an awful long ways to go to hit "H". I've gone from a 180 to 190 and the needle only changed 1 needle width position at the most.

It almost sounds like the gauge re-builder might have the temp "clocked" in the wrong position.

Boil a cup of water in your microwave and put the sending unit in it and see where it's at. Invest a few dollars into an after market gauge with numbers and give things a double-check. Might be saving yourself a cracked head/block if the gauge re-build is spot-on.


Mo' Farts

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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: terzmo] #1360511
12/29/12 04:07 PM
12/29/12 04:07 PM
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North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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Quote:

what is top of normal range ??? I get ALOT of flak about old cars running temps....I guess driving them since the early 60's doesn't count with some BUT..old cars don't like high temps like new can handle. When My gauge gets to 200, I start to worry...at 210...I'm getting ready to shut it down. Optimum temp for the old cars is about 185 plus or minus a bit. A t stat is only going to restrict flow at temps under it's rating. I would never run a 195 in an old car...180 is the most and I prefer a 170 as I want coolant circulating as soon as possible. In the 50's...here in WNY, people would actualy remove the stat in the summer. The stat only gets a car to warm the block faster so people can get heat in cold weather sooner. (you can't run a new car without one as I have found)The inner range of a mechanical, stock, 1960's car is the normal operating range after warmup..top center is around 185...the range is a low around 170 to a high of 195 give or take a few. BUT...some claim they are running an old car at temps of 230 + and are very happy...so be it...not this guy


and..ask the guys at the track how there mopar runs at 215+ vs 185 degrees...alot of lost horsepower and engine failure...heat is potentialy the biggest enemy of an engine.




A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature. If the engine is running "hot" at 195, then why have an OEM t-stat temp that high? I am not saying that maybe going to a 180 might not be a bad idea but I can't see 195 as running hot...

I would also never run a car without a t-stat as that will cause the engine to wear out prematurely as the engine will run so long below its proper operating temperature. Just like being too hot will cook an engine, being too cool will wear it out as well. There is a reason why motors use t-stats and have more many years....it isn't just to get heat faster.

I do agree I would never want to run a car regularly at much over 200-210 degrees and definitley not anywhere near 230!

I just want to see if you guys get the same beahvior with the stock gauges. I might get an aftermarket gauge to cross check this when I have the spare $$$

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360512
12/29/12 04:30 PM
12/29/12 04:30 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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I would verify the actual temps in the motor with a infra red gun at the sender and use a thermometer(SP?) in the radiator I've seen gauges be off as much as 50 F when indicating in the lower ranges Autometer mechanical water temp gauge read 140F and the actual water temp coming into the radiator was 93 F

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/30/12 08:27 PM.

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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: Cab_Burge] #1360513
12/29/12 05:17 PM
12/29/12 05:17 PM
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Pendleton NY
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terzmo Offline
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Quote:

I wold verify the actaul emps in the motor with a infra red gun at the sender and use a thermometer(SP?) in the radiator I've seen gauges be off as much as 50 F when indicating in the lower ranges Autometer mechanical water temp gauge read 140F and the actual water temp coming into the radiator was 93 F




"I would also never run a car without a t-stat as that will cause the engine to wear out prematurely as the engine will run so long below its proper operating temperature. Just like being too hot will cook an engine, being too cool will wear it out as well. There is a reason why motors use t-stats and have more many years....it isn't just to get heat faster."

new age thinking.....what happens when that 195 stat finally opens and the rest of the water is at a huge cooler difference..like 65 degrees vs 195 ....new cars need the heat to run efficient with all the other extra add ons...old cars have a PCV valve at the most and designed for lower temps vs new cars. Both My chevy truck and Jeep run at 220...I'm not running My 67 r/t anywhere's near that....running at 195 is an owner's choice but at the high end of operating temp for an old engine...run your motor longer and hotter with a 195 stat.( which means it most likely won't react until almost 200 or more)..I'll run mine at 180 to 185.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: Grizzly] #1360514
12/29/12 05:23 PM
12/29/12 05:23 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:




195 should leave you somewhere in normal operating range. Even on the new vehicles with 195's the needle has an awful long ways to go to hit "H". I've gone from a 180 to 190 and the needle only changed 1 needle width position at the most.






You should't compare the calibration of gauges on current vehicles to those built 35 plus years ago.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360515
12/29/12 05:28 PM
12/29/12 05:28 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:



A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature.




what year is the car you are working on and where did you get that info ?

According to my 69 service manual the stock thermo temp is 190 , it's 200 for the 170" /6 .

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: JohnRR] #1360516
12/29/12 05:40 PM
12/29/12 05:40 PM
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Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah Offline
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Quote:

Quote:




195 should leave you somewhere in normal operating range. Even on the new vehicles with 195's the needle has an awful long ways to go to hit "H". I've gone from a 180 to 190 and the needle only changed 1 needle width position at the most.






You should't compare the calibration of gauges on current vehicles to those built 35 plus years ago.




Sure you can. Our 2010 300C SRT-8 shows 175 on the analog dash gauge and the digital display says 205 (or something like that). It will be the year 3000 before Chrysler figures out the in's and out's of analog gauges.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: JohnRR] #1360517
12/29/12 06:06 PM
12/29/12 06:06 PM
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North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:



A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature.




what year is the car you are working on and where did you get that info ?

According to my 69 service manual the stock thermo temp is 190 , it's 200 for the 170" /6 .




The car is a 1973 Charger. Both Advace Auto and Rock Auto show a 195 degree stat as OEM temp (what I have). They have 180 and 160 degree units available but they are not OEM temp according to them. Maybe it's an early 70's emissions thing to let the motor run hotter?

I may go to a 180 degree stat but as I understand it, putting in a lower temp stat is not going to fix a cooling issue...it's just a bandaid. Not to say 180 is really a low temp stat but you get what I am saying...

I have an aluminum WP housing and I have pegged it with the IR thermometer when it was warmed up and I have never seen it get above 165 or so around the sender.

However, I can peg it near the distributor and at a few points near the oil pump and it can get 205 or so on a HOT day. With IR thermometer, radiator gets a 30+ degree drop IIRC.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360518
12/29/12 06:49 PM
12/29/12 06:49 PM
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Andrewh Offline
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so right now, it appears nothing is wrong with your cooling system.

you need to get over what the gauge says.
IT IS NOT CORRECT.

if your IR gun shows under 200 or 195 ish, when the thermostat opens, and it maintains that temp, you don't have any cooling issues.

your old gauge just reads there now for your operating temp.

The drop in the gauge you see may not be much degree wise.
unless again, you are seeing a huge drop with the ir gun.

Either way, I don't see a problem, unless the temp the ir gun shows is way over 195 before the thermostat opens, or you start going above that at the radiator.

your gauge is just not reading where you think it should and it is making you chase something that isn't wrong.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: Andrewh] #1360519
12/29/12 07:43 PM
12/29/12 07:43 PM
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cageman Offline
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An engine is an engine, and water boils at 212 degrees, so if you want the condensation inside your engine to keep being washed around in your oil, then run it at 160, Ill keep my warm engine. Everything is in sync when it is around 200 degrees also, if you have hot pistons but a colder block, that causes wear and tear.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cageman] #1360520
12/29/12 07:51 PM
12/29/12 07:51 PM
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Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
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Condensation doesn't need to be boiled out water evaporates at much lower than 212*. There is no reason to run older engines higher than 195. Older engines run much better at 180-185*.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: stumpy] #1360521
12/29/12 08:26 PM
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North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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Quote:

Condensation doesn't need to be boiled out water evaporates at much lower than 212*. There is no reason to run older engines higher than 195. Older engines run much better at 180-185*.




Not disagreeing necessarily, but why is the OE t-stat a 195 degree unit then? If 180-185 is the "sweet spot" then why did the factory not use 180 degree units? I am guessing they didn't see a problem with running at 195 degrees is my logic. Not to say I think running much over 200 degrees for extended periods is a good idea either.

Oh well, I will just have to run it and see what happens. What are first signs of engine overheat I should look for? It is a BB stroker and the original block so I don't want to risk blowing this up.

Would advancing or retarding timing influece this at all? I had it at 18 degrees initial but rolled it back to 16 as it would ping slightly under load on a hot day.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360522
12/29/12 08:40 PM
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Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
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EPA smog rules I'm sure. Engines run stronger at 180 but burn more gas.

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360523
12/29/12 08:59 PM
12/29/12 08:59 PM
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None of my 71/4B gauges act like that. Just slowly come up to the lower side of the normal range.
Maybe your stat is sticking abit.
My 72 FSM calls for a 185* stat and thats what I've been running for 35 years in alot of Mopars.
Back in the day people would run a 195* in the winter and a 180* in the summer. Common here where it can be over 100* in the summer and -0* in the winter.
My 72 440 driver w/185* stat nevers gets over 190* in the summer but is a little cool in the winter.


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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360524
12/29/12 10:07 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature.




what year is the car you are working on and where did you get that info ?

According to my 69 service manual the stock thermo temp is 190 , it's 200 for the 170" /6 .




The car is a 1973 Charger. Both Advace Auto and Rock Auto show a 195 degree stat as OEM temp (what I have). They have 180 and 160 degree units available but they are not OEM temp according to them. Maybe it's an early 70's emissions thing to let the motor run hotter?

I may go to a 180 degree stat but as I understand it, putting in a lower temp stat is not going to fix a cooling issue...it's just a bandaid. Not to say 180 is really a low temp stat but you get what I am saying...

I have an aluminum WP housing and I have pegged it with the IR thermometer when it was warmed up and I have never seen it get above 165 or so around the sender.

However, I can peg it near the distributor and at a few points near the oil pump and it can get 205 or so on a HOT day. With IR thermometer, radiator gets a 30+ degree drop IIRC.




I just looked at Rockauto and it says the OEM for my 69 Superbee and dart is 195 ... WRONG ... I don't use online retailers of generic parts as a source for OEM info and neither should you or anyone else ...

Did the company that restored your gauge ask for any info?

Maybe you should call them , talk about your issue then send the gauge and your sender back to them after you compare your gauge wit ha mechanical gauge connected in the same area as your current sender ?

Oh and buy a factory manual ...

Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions [Re: cjskotni] #1360525
12/29/12 10:35 PM
12/29/12 10:35 PM
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New Mexico, USA
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attaboy Offline
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: When replacing your temp sending units, don't buy the ones from Auto Zone, Pep Boys, etc. Buy the correct MOPAR sending unit. Chances are if you buy from one of the non MOPAR folks, you'll get a GM unit that is not set up for MOPARS. I made that mistake and it took me forever to figure out that my "new" sending units weren't good for my car and always read higher than the actual temp. Get the correct PN number for your MOPAR and then buy only that one.

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