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Re: Green Bearings [Re: John_Kunkel] #134422
10/11/08 03:57 PM
10/11/08 03:57 PM
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Posts: 9,982
Ansonia, CT
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CJK440 Offline
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Quote:

In addition, axle flange stand-out is not held constant unless you blueprint the axle lengths.

That's the one I don't get. Please explain.




One side is consistantly positioned by the fixed retainer and the other is subject to multiple tolerance stackups in the housing, shafts, button etc.


2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
Re: Green Bearings [Re: CJK440] #134423
10/11/08 04:05 PM
10/11/08 04:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,618
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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With an adjustment spec of .008"-.018" the difference in standout is gonna cause what problem that is so serious that in needs the Greens to rectify? Sorry, I don't buy it.

With a production run of tens of thousands of housings/axles, there will likely be a lot more inconsistency from that than the bearing choice.


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Re: Green Bearings [Re: John_Kunkel] #134424
10/11/08 04:58 PM
10/11/08 04:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,016
Polson, MT
DoctorDiff Offline
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An adjustable, Set 7 bearing is a needlessly complicated design that weakens the differential:

The bearing is flipped around backward, so the race is captive between it and the axle flange. This means the bearing must float in the housing end and requires an adjuster, thrust block or thrust pin. Of course, an adjuster, thrust block or thrust pin must pass through the center of the differential. A hole drilled in the cross shaft of a 4 pinion carrier creates a stress riser that is prone to breaking. A 2 pinon carrier allows the thrust block to pass around it unobstructed, but the 2 pinion design also limits the differential's strength.

Limits side gear spline engagement:

Axle spline engagement also suffers because the width of the thrust block (which must have room to slide side to side) protrudes into the splined area of the side gears. This limits spline engagement in differentials with a 2 piece cone or clutch-hub/side gear arrangement.

Is prone to leakage and dirt/water contamination in many applications:

Beaded steel and foam gaskets don't keep water from running into the housing end and into the non-sealed wheel bearing. Don't forget to check your A7 wheel bearings if you ever back a boat into the water.

Axle flange stand-out is not held constant unless you blueprint the axle lengths:

Measure the axle flange stand-out on both sides of any stock 8 3/4" rearend. Because of production tolerances, a single adjuster causes the axle flange to stick out farther on 1 side than the other. The length of both axles, and the housing width is critically dependont on each other. Because everyone uses tape measurements to specify axle and housing lengths, making a set of axles with adjustable set 7 wheel bearings for a custom application is very hard. Axle flange standout varies greatly unless the axles are cut long, installed then blue printed to length.

Most of these problems could have been avoided if the "engineer" who designed the system would have flipped the bearings around so the race would seat against a machined step inside the housing end. This would require no adjustment, no thrust buttons and the axle lengths wouldn't be critical.

I thought about making special billet housing ends that would accept non adjustable set 7 tapered wheel bearings. Then I realized the design wouldn't sell because there is really nothing wrong with snap-ring style Green bearings.

Green bearings make my life easier. I sell at least 500 a year, and my customer's rarely have problems with them. In contrast, almost every time I sell set 7 bearings, the customer has installation questions/problems.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: DoctorDiff] #134425
10/11/08 06:31 PM
10/11/08 06:31 PM
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Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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MoparforLife Offline
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Quote:

In contrast, almost every time I sell set 7 bearings, the customer has installation questions/problems.


Probably because said customer makes a simple job a whole lot more complicated than it is. It isn't aero space science to pack and adjust a set of tapered bearings and rarely OEM were a problem. In fact I venture that the vast majority of 8 3/4 at a JY have never had a bearing failure and that they are still usable with no problems. It isn't as if you have to periodically readjust. Once properly greased &set up leave along for many thousand trouble free miles.
It is bound to be easier for you to install a set of greens on an axle and tell the customer to plug and play, no adjustment needed.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: MoparforLife] #134426
10/11/08 06:45 PM
10/11/08 06:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

In contrast, almost every time I sell set 7 bearings, the customer has installation questions/problems.


Probably because said customer makes a simple job a whole lot more complicated than it is. It isn't aero space science to pack and adjust a set of tapered bearings and rarely OEM were a problem. In fact I venture that the vast majority of 8 3/4 at a JY have never had a bearing failure and that they are still usable with no problems. It isn't as if you have to periodically readjust. Once properly greased &set up leave along for many thousand trouble free miles.
It is bound to be easier for you to install a set of greens on an axle and tell the customer to plug and play, no adjustment needed.





Re: Green Bearings [Re: MoparforLife] #134427
10/11/08 07:28 PM
10/11/08 07:28 PM
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Polson, MT
DoctorDiff Offline
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Polson, MT
Exactly.

Some of those "said customers" are the same people who used to post on Moparts about how easy tapered bearings install and adjust.

I wish everyone had the opportunity to spec and install a new pair of axles for use with an early power-lock, adjustable Set 7 bearings and a custom width housing.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: DoctorDiff] #134428
10/11/08 07:44 PM
10/11/08 07:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,618
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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Quote:

An adjustable, Set 7 bearing is a needlessly complicated design that weakens the differential:




Sorry, Cass, I think you're exaggerating this for the sake of argument.

Quote:

Limits side gear spline engagement:




I don't agree that this 1/8" is a big deal.


Quote:

Is prone to leakage and dirt/water contamination in many applications




So why not an epidemic of failures in the 25+ year history of this design? Anything that is misused is subject to failure.

Quote:

Axle flange standout varies greatly unless the axles are cut long, installed then blue printed to length.




Greatly? How much we talkin' here? .030" total? Seems the factory had no problems in mass production.

Quote:

Most of these problems could have been avoided if the "engineer" who designed the system would have flipped the bearings around so the race would seat against a machined step inside the housing end. This would require no adjustment, no thrust buttons and the axle lengths wouldn't be critical.




I doubt that production tolerances would allow that design because, without adjusters, the bearing retainer would either preload the bearing or let it run loose.


Quote:

there is really nothing wrong with snap-ring style Green bearings.




That's the point of conjecture, look in any ball bearing catalog and they'll state the maximum allowable side load for a given ball bearing. Bearings without a loading slot are limited to the number of balls and are therefore more load-limited than a bearing with a loading slot. Loading slots would be inappropriate for a side loaded bearing like the Green.

The tapered bearing is superior in handling the thrust loads they're subjected to in turns.


Quote:

Green bearings make my life easier.




IMHO, that's the absolute worst reason to replace the factory bearing with them.

Quote:

I sell at least 500 a year, and my customer's rarely have problems with them.




You sell them because you recommend them to your customers. Don't always assume that because you don't hear of a problem it doesn't occur.


Quote:

In contrast, almost every time I sell set 7 bearings, the customer has installation questions/problems.




Come on, Cass, don't blame the bearing for people's inability to properly install/adjust them. I have never had a problem installing or adjusting a factory bearing.


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Re: Green Bearings [Re: John_Kunkel] #134429
10/11/08 08:16 PM
10/11/08 08:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
HealthServices  Offline
Why would you even post that?

Joined: Dec 2007
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So Cal
Quote:

Come on, Cass, don't blame the bearing for people's inability to properly install/adjust them. I have never had a problem installing or adjusting a factory bearing.




Not siding with anyone but there are actually a lot of people on this board and others that attempt to do things they have no business doing. I used to fix many problems at the dealer that the consumer fudged up. If I had less problems selling a product that is easier for the consumer to understand and install, I'd do it.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Green Bearings [Re: John_Kunkel] #134430
10/11/08 08:50 PM
10/11/08 08:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571 Offline
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Quote:


Sorry, Cass, I think you're exaggerating this for the sake of argument.






I think this statement can be applied to a lot points on both sides of this debate.

This debate is always heated, and is always pointless.

It boils down to this....

The tapered bearings are stonger in corners. I don't think there is an argument there. OK fine.

The green design has been used in thousands of street mopars, and MILLIONS of brand X cars, so it's perfectly fine too.

Use whatever kind you like and be happy.

I like greens for thier simplicity and use them alot. BUT I won't replace perfectly good stock ones just for the sake of having new stuff.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: John_Kunkel] #134431
10/11/08 08:58 PM
10/11/08 08:58 PM
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Polson, MT
DoctorDiff Offline
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1. "I don't agree that this 1/8" is a big deal"

I have a 5 gallon bucket half full of stripped out power-lock side gears with partial spline engagement that suggests otherwise.

2. "So why not an epidemic of failures in the 25+ year history of this design. Anything that is misused is subject to failure"

Although my dad is on his 4th set of A-7 bearings in his 66 Ford pickup, comared to his original set of sealed ball bearings in his '65 Ford pickup, I never said there was an epidemic of failure. Both pickups were used in the summer to load a boat into the water. BTW, I'm still waiting to hear about the epidemic failures of the thousands of snap ring Green bearings I sold.

3. "Greatly? How much we talkin' here? .030" total? Seems the factory had no problems in mass production"

Did you even read my explanation about tape measurements and custom housing/axle lengths?

4. "I doubt that production tolerances would allow that design because, without adjusters, the bearing retainer would either preload the bearing or let it run loose"

Are you aware that MILLIONS of Ford 9" rears built in the '70s and early '80s run non adjustable tapered roller bearings (Set 20) that bottom out on a machined step in the housing?

5. "That's the point of conjecture, look in any ball bearing catalog and they'll state the maximum allowable side load for a given ball bearing. Bearings without a loading slot are limited to the number of balls and are therefore more load-limited than a bearing with a loading slot. Loading slots would be inappropriate for a side loaded bearing like the Green. The tapered bearing is superior in handling the thrust loads they're subjected to in turns"

Of course the tapered bearing itsself is stronger. Did I ever say it wasn't? Just because X is stronger than Y, that doesn't make Y junk. Application is everyting.

6. "Green bearings make my life easier. IMHO, that's the absolute worst reason to replace the factory bearing with them"

Why are you arguing with this fact? I would never get anything done if I had to constantly diagnose set 7 wheel bearing installation problems over the phone. When I sell a pair of axles with Green bearings, I don't hear back from the customer until he is ready to order a pair for another car.

How do you suggest I make set 7 equipped axles the exact correct length, when all I have to go by is the customer's tape measurement in a non stock application? In addition, most people don't want to pay me more to put used adjusters on new axles and to blueprint the axle lengths even if I do have the housing in front of me.

7. "Come on, Cass, don't blame the bearing for people's inability to properly install/adjust them. I have never had a problem installing or adjusting a factory bearing"

Neither have I, but that doesn't negate the fact that MOST customers DO have problems. Just for the record, I offer Timken set 7 wheel bearings as an option on every pair of custom axles I do for stock housing widths over the phone. Moser, Strange, Dutchman, and Mark Williams don't.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: John_Kunkel] #134432
10/12/08 10:06 PM
10/12/08 10:06 PM
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Newfoundland Canada
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Mopar1 Offline
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Newfoundland Canada
Green bearings here. Three summers and two vacations in a heavy '68 Sport Fury and no problems. Quiet as a kitten.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: Mopar1] #134433
10/13/08 08:59 AM
10/13/08 08:59 AM
Joined: May 2003
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Florida
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scratchnfotraction Offline
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Florida
greens 8 yrs and 100 miles a day

I would not change a good stock bearing just to have new greens

done lots of R&R of the axles with gear changes,plug and play,never have a prob with them


Re: Green Bearings [Re: scratchnfotraction] #134434
10/13/08 11:54 AM
10/13/08 11:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Charlotte, NC
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No comment on tapered vs. Green but it's not a bad idea to go with Ford 3.15" sealed bearings/ends when building a Dana or 8-3/4 from scratch. Strong, simple and you can use junkyard Explorer disc brakes.

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Re: Green Bearings [Re: 446acuda] #134435
10/13/08 02:54 PM
10/13/08 02:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,568
Omaha, Nebraska
Scott Carl Offline OP
pro stock
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Omaha, Nebraska
At the risk of beating a dead horse on this issue, a question has come to mind. As I understand the Grenn bearings, their main advantage, besides the need for adjustment is eliminated, is that they are sealed. Correct? Is it simply not possible to do with a tapered bearing? Not suggesting that they are better or ball is worse, Just asking the question. Is there a sealed tapered bearing on the market?

Re: Green Bearings [Re: DoctorDiff] #134436
10/13/08 02:57 PM
10/13/08 02:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,618
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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DoctorDiff wrote:
Quote:


I have a 5 gallon bucket half full of stripped out power-lock side gears with partial spline engagement that suggests otherwise.




A previous regular (Dennis) on this forum claimed to have a bucket full of failed Greens. Go figure.

What percentage of Greens are used on stock factory axles compared to aftermarket? The factory axle usually has 1/8" of chamfer at the end, if the Greens position the axle in the same relative position, the spline engagement is the same so what's gained?

The only time your argument holds water is if longer-than- stock aftermarket axles are used. How often are aftermarket axles spec'd longer than stock compare to stock?

Once again the "uneducated" argument can be used to argue one versus the other.


Quote:

Did you even read my explanation about tape measurements and custom housing/axle lengths?





Sarcasm noted. You're making an argument based on the use of aftermarket axles while seeming to advocate the use of Greens as being accceptable across the board.

Again I'll ask, do you have verifiable statistics on the percentage of Greens used on stock versus aftermarket? If so, I'm all ears.


Quote:

Of course the tapered bearing itsself is stronger. Did I ever say it wasn't? Just because X is stronger than Y, that doesn't make Y junk. Application is everyting.




Never said they were junk (I occasionally use them myself), you're arguing that "there is nothing wrong with the Green Bearing" which, as you state, depends on application. IOW the Green isn't an across-the-board suitable replacement.


Quote:

Why are you arguing with this fact? I would never get anything done if I had to constantly diagnose set 7 wheel bearing installation problems over the phone.




Once again you're basing your argument on something other than the bearing itself. I used to be in the TF transmission business and spent a lot of time on the phone diagnosing problems caused by installer errors; should I have just told them to get a TurboHydro?

Quote:

How do you suggest I make set 7 equipped axles the exact correct length, when all I have to go by is the customer's tape measurement in a non stock application?




Ever tried math? And, again you're basing your argument on the use of aftermarket pieces. If someone just wants to replace worn out bearings in a stock rear end would you recommend the Greens simply because they're easier?

Many contributors to this forum have flatly stated that they replaced their factory bearings with Greens simply because they didn't want to be bothered with the adjuster. That's a sad testament to laziness.

Quote:

In addition, most people don't want to pay me more to put used adjusters on new axles and to blueprint the axle lengths even if I do have the housing in front of me.




Ever consider that the reason nobody is making the effort to repop the factory adjusters is because everybody is recommending the Greens?


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Re: Green Bearings [Re: BergmanAutoCraft] #134437
10/13/08 06:09 PM
10/13/08 06:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 752
AZ - The "dry heat" state
71autoxr Offline
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AZ - The "dry heat" state
Quote:

Agreed. For drag racing they are OK, for street driving no, and an autocrosser would destroy them in no time. They don't hold up well to side loading (cornering).

I love responses like this. I have been using greens for almost a 100K, and I'm not a drag racer...Changed the first set @ 50K.




I second the motion. I replaced to greens at least a decade ago. So far I have years of autocrossing, two track days as well as tens of thousands of miles of spirited driving - no failure yet.


68 AMX mopars red headed stepchild
69 Dart GT Convertible 340 4 speed
71 Challenger - looks like the avatar!
Re: Green Bearings [Re: 446acuda] #134438
10/13/08 06:16 PM
10/13/08 06:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,037
Texas, Dallas
G_T Offline
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G_T  Offline
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Texas, Dallas
Quote:

No comment on tapered vs. Green but it's not a bad idea to go with Ford 3.15" sealed bearings/ends when building a Dana or 8-3/4 from scratch. Strong, simple and you can use junkyard Explorer disc brakes.




Exactly! I'll have a new Dana 60 built and will put on the Big Ford ends (sometimes called the big torino ends). Be done with it.


1970 Charger - V10, 6spd, Alterkation, Street Lynx 4 Link, Moser Dana 60, Wilwood 14" disks, Forgeline 18" Wheels (Rear:335's), ISIS Multiplexing Wiring http://www.v10mopar.com 2012 Charger SRT8
Re: Green Bearings [Re: John_Kunkel] #134439
10/14/08 01:33 AM
10/14/08 01:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,016
Polson, MT
DoctorDiff Offline
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DoctorDiff  Offline
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Polson, MT
My orignal post was a response to this quote:

"A tapered Timken bearing is a beautiful engineering masterpiece."

I don't agree an adjustable Set 7 bearing is an "engineering masterpiece". I think it is a mediocre design, which is needlessly complicated and it causes several problems which I listed.

I am explaining if the "engineer" would have flipped the set 7 bearings around like the set 20 tapered units available in Ford rearends, several problems would have been avoided.

Whenever I sell an axle package, I always ask the customer if he wants the axles stock length, or if he wants to remove the thrust block so I can make the axles 1/8" longer to acheive maximum spline engagement for his vintage, narrow side gears. If I didn't think this was important, I wouldn't mention it.

I really do have a bucket half full of stripped out side gears with partial spline engagement. If Dennis has a bucket full of broken Green wheel berings, I bet they are the troublesome RP-400 first generation units with the crimped on flange still sold through Mopar Performance. The bind created causes the bearing to wear out quickly or the retainer breaks off when installed in a housing that isn't perfectly straight. I have never endorsed that bearing, and I only recommend tapered bearings for trucks. "Application is everything".

You didn't recommend installing TurboHydros if someone has problems with TF transmissions just like I don't recommend installing Ford 9" rearends if someone has a problem adjusting their Mopar wheel bearings.

You imply I never machine a new axle to work with adjustable wheel bearings. I have probably done more than most other drivetrain guys. In fact, I did a set today.

It is not a matter of "trying math", it is a matter of getting an accurate measurement on a customer's custom housing, which is not in front of me. How do I even know if it is narrowed evenly on both sides? Tolerances don't have to be off very far to create minimal spline engagement on 1 side.

In addition,(once again) "most people don't want to pay me more to put used adjusters on new axles and to blueprint the axle lengths."

I would guess the reason new adjusters are not available, is because most people don't have problems with snap ring style green bearings.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: 71autoxr] #134440
10/14/08 07:22 AM
10/14/08 07:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 403
30 miles west of EuroDisney
fbernard Offline
mopar
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30 miles west of EuroDisney
Quote:


I second the motion. I replaced to greens at least a decade ago. So far I have years of autocrossing, two track days as well as tens of thousands of miles of spirited driving - no failure yet.





A friend's car I installed a Wilwood disc brake kit on (which required snap-ring green bearings) is currently on its 4th set of bearings in under 2 years. The previous set (the 3rd) survived road use and drag racing easily. But rally and spirited driving killed it in ONE DAY.

My car did the same with tapered bearings (no rear discs), and they're still fine. They're at least 15 years old.

Re: Green Bearings [Re: DoctorDiff] #134441
10/14/08 07:32 AM
10/14/08 07:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,042
Slidell, La.
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doctor_mopar Offline
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doctor_mopar  Offline
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Slidell, La.
I'm in agreement with the Doc all the way. I have seen many ruined tapered bearings ( going back 40 years), most due to so called professional ( however generic make ) mechanics improperly adjusting, or installing all components with the tapred bearings. By the way, I just had a call yesterday from a local alignment and repair shop needing an E body axle for a customer, because they ruined one improperly installing a tapered bearing axle. Stupid , but real life ! I have also had experience with the different versions of the Green bearings, and agree that the snap ring version the Doc recommends work well. I have found them very usefull in custom situations, and where other coponents are missing or not available as needed with the tapered bearing. i have also run the Greens for many thousans of trouble free miles on the street ! Under ideal conditions the tapered will probably hold more load. Under real world installation and use on our automobiles, the Greens are probably the best choice 9 out of 10 times. I have been successful with installation of both many times, but I will take the Greens most the time !


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