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Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: 493_DART] #13454
11/14/04 06:14 AM
11/14/04 06:14 AM
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I remember back to the time when it was common to refer to a cam as being 1/4 race, 1/2 race, 3/4 race, full race...no in betweens, it was either one or the other..LOL!, the term for stage 1 , 2 , or 3 etc, for porting seems to be the fashion at this time, though it sets a standard for a set price & the amount of work done, which as seen does vary from one shop to another.

There's so many variations in combinations I prefer to stay with the custom porting theme for doing work

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: FastOne] #13455
11/14/04 09:26 AM
11/14/04 09:26 AM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Once again,
We get well thought out information, presented in an easy to understand format, backed up with solid data. Sure, Fast has strong opinions, especially in the area of cylinder heads, but he's never been afraid to back those up with a solid foundation of facts, experience, and reason...which is why he's easily one of the most respected and sought out contributors to this board.

As Sg303 put it, a customer needs to have good communication with his machinist/porter to get the correct amount of modification for his budget/performance goals...obviously the guys who do this kind of work, and regularly post here show a penchant for good communication skills!!!

One of the most common mistakes I see customers/racers make is to order heads/porting based on intended growth of thier engine program...then they are dissapointed when the product doesn't perform well on thier mild 440, even though they clearly placed an order for the all-out 528 they intend to build in a year or two.


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: fast68plymouth] #13456
11/14/04 10:56 AM
11/14/04 10:56 AM
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While we're talking about SRs, what should $1300 worth of work pay for....including valve job and resurface.

What I'm driving at: is it fair to compare CNC porting to hand porting at the same price point?



Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: ZIPPY] #13457
11/14/04 12:41 PM
11/14/04 12:41 PM
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Zippy I think you'll find that the CNC labor vs manual labor on the porting will be the same. Although the CNC is alot faster someone has to pay for the initial cost of the machine. Also remember the CNC program had to be created using a hand ported set first. Could you imagine trying to pay off one of those by only charging 3 or 4 hours labor for the porting...yikes.

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: fast68plymouth] #13458
11/15/04 10:54 AM
11/15/04 10:54 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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while there are certainly pros and cons for most things engine related, i like the "stage I", "stage II" type of concept when it comes to head porting in most circumstances.
it takes care of several issues....for both the customer and the supplier.
both sides know what the cost is, and what the expectations are, as well as exactly what work will be performed.

like Jeff, i used to just do as much work as what the customer wanted to spend.
sometimes that works well, sometimes its just the customer spending extra $$$ for almost no gain.

as an example.....say i charge $500 for a "stage I" prep on a set of heads, and $800 for a "stage II".
the customer may have $600 they want to spend for that portion of the motor build.
an extra $100 applied towards a "stage I" job isnt really going to do much of anything in terms of a performance gain when you have to divide the $100 worth of labor between 16 ports.
in most cases all it does is lighten the customers wallet a little, and they would have been better off spending that same $100 on something else.

for me, the step from a stage I to a stage II is what i feel is the amount of extra work thats necessary to make the heads enough better to show a performance difference.
trying to improve upon a stage I job, without going all the way to a stage II isnt an effective use of the available funds, IMO.

no, its not going to satisfy everyones needs....but it does work for the majority of the people i deal with.
i can tell them the price, what labor will be performed, and what they should flow when completed.
in a way, its a lot like having a set of heads CNC ported.
the CNC porting shop knows how much they are going to charge, and what they should flow when finished.
this is the same type of thing for us smaller shops that dont have CNC porting equipment, who are trying to satsify the needs for people who dont quite need the heads to be ported to that level.

the main purpose of this thread was more to educate the Moparts members(rather than argue the pros and cons of the "stage" porting philosophy), so that they would be more aware of the differences in the amount of work different shops do under the same name.
when shopping for heads, if you're dealing with a shop that does use the "stage" type of terminology for their work....dont just assume you know what you're getting for each level of porting/prep they offer.
ask them to explain what you'll be getting for your $$$.

this post was prompted by the AeroHead BB E heads i have in the shop now that got their "stage II" porting.
lets just say there are MUCH less modifications done to the ports that if i did them to my stage II package.
after seeing what was done to these heads....i can see why they are able to charge $250 less than i do for "stage II" porting on these heads.
in fact....they have less done to them than i do for my "stage I"(and its reflected in the flow numbers).



68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: fast68plymouth] #13459
11/15/04 12:44 PM
11/15/04 12:44 PM
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Ontario
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I just wanted to say Ive enjoyed this thread and all of the info you guys have provided. I plan on getting my SR's done this winter, as soon as I know what i will have for a new shortblock, I can move forward. Do either of you guys do welding repair on aluminum heads as well? So far all i know is a got some smashed valves and possibly had one piston hit the head, unless the valve slowed it down when the rod broke. I havent disassembled yet out of disgust. thanks again for all the info.

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: fast68plymouth] #13460
11/15/04 01:22 PM
11/15/04 01:22 PM
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Houston, Texas
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fast, I got a PM on another board about who to have port BB Eddy heads. I referred him to you and I hope he gets in contact with you. I told him what a sweet and wonderful guy you are!

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: 5537SG] #13461
11/15/04 01:41 PM
11/15/04 01:41 PM
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The shop I play at does not have a flowbench. We do have a couple accessable, but obviously it's not free. What goes thru the shop is 40% stock rebuilds, 25% mild performance builds, 20% medium performance, local circle track, etc engines, and 15% high budget race engines. The basic "street port" as they refer to it, is $250. It sounds like Dwayne's Stage 1, bowls, throat, and opennings, but no flowbench numbers. They dont waste time porting on a set of heads that has marginal valve work done. So, add $250 for Serdi five angle valve job, plus guides if needed. The all out engines go hourly for porting, due to the cost of flowbench testing, and hand labor. I have SRs out of the box. They came with seats out of round, guides too tight, and large aluminum chips still in the port. I have out of the box eddys, with some of the same issues(no chips tho!!bonus!) The point is, when I see everyone recommending these aftermarket heads, it is very rare to see a mention of paying someone to check them out and correct them . It's always "bolt them on and go". We are constantly trying to balance between $$ and power, and 90% of the time, the $ dictates the result. I would rather have a great set of heads, for $2K, then a slightly above average set for $1200. aluminum or not. There are many guys that can do quality port work, but the higher the ability, the fewer there are that can do it. ( i am not on the level of these guys..lol) Anyway, the owner/customer must take it upon themselves to do the research and validating..Buyer beware. Personally, the "Stage" idea cant be appllied to manufacturers that dont deal in identical product. (906s from hughes, or Dwayne, or Aerohead can be apples to apples; Eddys vs. SRs vs. Bulldogs cannot IMO) Sadly, most buyers go by the manufacturers specs because that's what they have access to.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: moper] #13462
11/15/04 06:51 PM
11/15/04 06:51 PM
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I guess it's a matter of the head porter to be "up front" with the customer & having an informed conversation with the fellow to see what he really needs, instead of taking his money & over spending in areas that won't get the desired results.

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: TheOtherDodge] #13463
11/15/04 10:15 PM
11/15/04 10:15 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Quote:

fast, I got a PM on another board about who to have port BB Eddy heads. I referred him to you and I hope he gets in contact with you. I told him what a sweet and wonderful guy you are!




sounds like someones gonna be in for a rude awakening when they call


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: fast68plymouth] #13464
11/16/04 01:00 PM
11/16/04 01:00 PM

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Guys,

This is a great thread, .. !!!!

After 26 years of porting heads, .. I haven't found and easy answer to this one! I think the key is like you guys pointed out, . it's up the the porting shop to discuss the work with the customer and estimate the project costs from there.

I do feel there's a place for each way to do things. I have "stage" porting prices for basic packages, .. bracket race, street, .. and it's similar to most shops, .. bowls, short turns, gasket match, valve job.

But that is a basic head prep that should be done to ANY cylinder head. The new castings that come out of the box aren't "ready to run" so this work needs to be done.

With my engineering background and pro stock experience most of my work these days is high end custom and design work to go to CnC. All of this work is quoted on a per project basis, .. the only way to do it.

Good thread guys, .. great to see head porters sharing like this.

Curtis

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: fast68plymouth] #13465
11/16/04 01:51 PM
11/16/04 01:51 PM

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Quote:


i get 45/hr for porting.

for a set of SR's, thats $800.

i figure on about 13.5hrs for the porting portion of this job, which is basically a mild full port job.

and if i read that right....at $80-100/hr you'd get $1360-1700 for fully hand porting those heads.

i haven't done too many of the 440-1's, but it takes me about 22hrs to do them




Fast,

Jeff makes some good points, .. first and most important is the hourly labor rate. $75 to $100 an hour for our expertise is the proper rate. The VALUE of the work you do is much greater then $45 and hour.

I don't know your shop, but once you get into a commercial space, .. or start buying machines equipment, paying advertising, salaries, etc. you HAVE to get $75 an hour or more just to cover overhead. The cost of doing business is important to know for ANY business.

At the rate, .. it's normal for my shop to get, .. say a set of Chebby 15º comp heads, .. $2,300 - $2,500 in porting, ..
Pro stock style heads, .. not uncommon for the total bill, .. castings, valves, etc. to be well over $10K, ..
4 cylinder "kent" 2 valve road race head, .. $2,900 complete, ..

To fully port a bracket race set of heads, .. not "all I can do" pro level stuff, .. but a good basic port job. Bowls, short side, .. correct volume, raise roof, narrow guide boss, chambers, etc.
yes it's often $1,400 to $1,800 depending on the head.
Around 17 to 20 hours of labor.

Now, .. go to Mike Chapman's web site and look at prices for Pro level work, .. his 15º chevy heads are $2200 for the CnC porting only.

High level, good work is expensive because it very time consuming to do.

This leads me to Jeff's comment of $800 stage 2 porting, ..
I don't think that's expensive IF, .. again, IF the level of work done is worth it. At $75 an hour, .. it's takes a little over 10 hours of work to get to that. Not hard to do if porting big block heads, ..

My stage 2 if you want to call it that, ... is bowls, guide bosses, short turn, gasket match, all the good basic work, ..takes about 8-10 hours on a set of big block heads ( aluminum) and it's $800. But, .. this is probably closer to a "stage 3" of most other shops.

I do, .. a basic valve bowl reshape & blend, .. my "stage 1"
( 5 hours of labor)
Then a Full port as listed above, .. my "stage 2"
( 8-11 hours of labor)
Then full race stuff is quoted, .. ..
and EVERYTHING we port if flowed, .

Oh, Jeff, .. do you do outside contract work for CnC ???? I've been looking around
for a CnC shop I can live with, .. Ford 4.6 PI heads, .. SB Chevys, . etc. ???

Curtis

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same #13466
11/16/04 03:22 PM
11/16/04 03:22 PM
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Sorry, can't add any "professional" input on this subject. However, I can throw in a few comments from my own experiences in the hobby...

"Stage <whatever> porting" doesn't mean zip to me anymore for just the reasons stated above. Tell me what you're going to do for the $ and we'll go from there.

No way I'll pay anybody to put a grinder to my heads who doesn't have the ability to flow test their results. Hmmm... guess that's partly why I bought my own flow bench a few years ago.

I've paid for cylinder head work from a number of different shops over the years and seen the work of quite a few others. At this point I'd say from what I've seen (limited as this may be in the grand scheme of things), maybe half of the work done was worth the money charged IMO. It's pretty disappointing to see the results of some "professional's" work, only to have to box the heads up and take them elsewhere to have the same job redone correctly.

It's a big confidence boost knowing I've found a cylinder head shop I trust to work on my stuff, even though I've got to ship my parts out of state to get the job done right. Too bad I haven't found a local shop to do basic block machine work, etc., that I feel the same way about.

Last edited by Brad_Hawk; 11/16/04 03:51 PM.
Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same #13467
11/16/04 03:59 PM
11/16/04 03:59 PM
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Quote:


Fast,

Jeff makes some good points, .. first and most important is the hourly labor rate. $75 to $100 an hour for our expertise is the proper rate. The VALUE of the work you do is much greater then $45 and hour.

Curtis





curtis , you're killing us here , my junk isn't worth $75-100 an hour ...


running up my post count some more .
Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: JohnRR] #13468
11/16/04 06:15 PM
11/16/04 06:15 PM

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the worth of the work performed is often times limited by what the market will bare.
some shops get close to 300 dollars to bore/hone with a plate, in another part of the country the same job can be had for about 180.00.

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same #13469
11/16/04 07:18 PM
11/16/04 07:18 PM
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Quote:

the worth of the work performed is often times limited by what the market will bare.
some shops get close to 300 dollars to bore/hone with a plate, in another part of the country the same job can be had for about 180.00.




nevermind adding in shipping parts 1000 plus miles


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Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same #13470
11/16/04 07:49 PM
11/16/04 07:49 PM

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Quote:

the worth of the work performed is often times limited by what the market will bare.
some shops get close to 300 dollars to bore/hone with a plate, in another part of the country the same job can be had for about 180.00.




Yea that's true with jobs like that, .. but on a national level, ..and in the porting world, ..you should be paying for a guy with some engineering background in fluid dynamics, .. dyno experience, .. a good porter isn't a guy who grinds out a hole to make it flow a number on the bench, ..

a good cylinder head guy knows how to build a port with the proper cross section, volume, .. flow curve for the application. That same guy should know the little valve job tricks that make HP on the combo, .. should know proper flow coefficients and how to use them, etc.

If a head guy doesn't know things like the discharge coefficient, velocity profiles, mean gas velocities, runner to cylinder volume, etc. he just can't design good ports.

Good cylinder head guys are engineers, ..

Generally shop rates in the pro cylinder head world, and pro level engine builders are determined on a national market
while smaller shops and smaller porting shops who do regional work are effected more by their local market & economy.

The other thing to consider is cost of doing business.

Let's say porting shop "A" is in Northern Virginia, .. and pays VERY high rent for commercial space, .. has the latest equipment, .. flow bench, wet bench, and spends money on development.
His cost of doing business, rent, machines, electric, salary, etc. may be, say $60 per shop hour.

Local "home" porter "B" has a little shop in his back yard, .. doesn't have the latest equipment, .. and doesn't spend money on development. his cost of doing business may be say $40 per hour.

But, .. whoever you are, .. if you are in business you need to know your cost of doing business.
This plays just as much role in your rates as does any market value.

The bottom line, .. if it's a $800 bracket race port or a $3000 comp port job, .. $75 to $100 an hour for shop labor is very much in the norm, .. and for some cylinder head shops a good deal. You get what you pay for.
This is a normal rate for CnC work, ..

Now, .. I'm not trying to say I'm expensive, .. many pro shops charge more then I do, .. .. but I match the cost to the time involved in the project. I do a TON of $300 touch up work to those disappointing CnC heads on the market, and a fair amount of $800 bracket race full ports, .. .. it's not all gravy. ;-)

Curtis

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: JohnRR] #13471
11/16/04 07:54 PM
11/16/04 07:54 PM

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Quote:

nevermind adding in shipping parts 1000 plus miles




It's normal for us, .. we won championships in four different countries last year, .. so shipping across the US, .. no big deal, ..shipping to New Zealand , .. once every few weeks, ..

Curtis

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same #13472
11/16/04 11:51 PM
11/16/04 11:51 PM
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Quote:


...in the porting world, ..you should be paying for a guy with some engineering background in fluid dynamics, .. dyno experience, .. a good porter isn't a guy who grinds out a hole to make it flow a number on the bench, ..

a good cylinder head guy knows how to build a port with the proper cross section, volume, .. flow curve for the application. That same guy should know the little valve job tricks that make HP on the combo, .. should know proper flow coefficients and how to use them, etc.

If a head guy doesn't know things like the discharge coefficient, velocity profiles, mean gas velocities, runner to cylinder volume, etc. he just can't design good ports.

Good cylinder head guys are engineers, ..





Things have sure changed since 'Grumpy' Jenkins used an archaic SF-100 to test his Pro Stock-winning heads in the '70s. Back then even engine builders like him probably weren't too far evolved from the "guy who grinds out a hole to make it flow a number on the bench" description.

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same [Re: BradH] #13473
11/17/04 01:40 AM
11/17/04 01:40 AM

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Brad,

You may be surprised, .. the "grump" is a fairly smart guy.
I don't know if he uses all the flow ratios and coef stuff, ..
my cuz works there, I'll have to ask.

But yea, things have changed. In the 80's I was offered a job at a few NASCAR teams, .. now if you don't have a degree in engineering they won't talk to you, . no matter what you've done in the past.

Curtis

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