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anyone align front end themselves #132714
10/06/08 01:22 AM
10/06/08 01:22 AM
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minnesota
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president61 Offline OP
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president61  Offline OP
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minnesota
WONDERING IF THIS COULD BE DONE WITHOUT TAKING CAR TO AN ALIGNMENT SHOP

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: president61] #132715
10/06/08 01:43 AM
10/06/08 01:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,384
Madison Wi
NTOLERANCE Offline
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Madison Wi
Youll never get it dead on at home.

I have used a level to set camber, and then used a tape measure to set toe, but setting the caster setting (vertical tilt of the centerline of the ball joints) is nearly impossible. Camber and caster are adjusted with the same components (eccentrics on the upper control arm pivots) When you change one you change the other. The way to set them both is to make the needed adjustments for each at the same time. Tough to do on your garage floor. Could be done, but pretty tough.

Caster and camber are measure in degrees of tilt. they make level type camber gages, but not for caster (that I know of)

Toe is a piece of cake, its measure (usually) in inches of toe in or toe out, depending on the specs.

Caster being out of spec wont cause your tires to wear, but it will cause many handling issues, such as puling to one side, poor returnability of the steering wheel to center, and instability a higher speeds.

The needed tools to set camber and caster at home would far outweigh the cost of an alignment done at a shop.


I used to care but....... things have changed
Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: president61] #132716
10/06/08 01:43 AM
10/06/08 01:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT Offline
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1_WILD_RT  Offline
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Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
Getting toe & camber close isn't to difficult, caster is quite a bit tougher...

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #132717
10/06/08 10:37 AM
10/06/08 10:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline
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Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
I use an angle finder. Find a level area for the car. Turn the steering wheel to the right about 1 to 1 1/4 turns, noteing where the spokes of the steering wheel are. You need to rotate the steering wheel to the same location but in the opposite direction later on. Once you turn the wheel to the right, using the angle finder find a flat spot on the wheel on the driverside of the car. Read and write down the angle holding the angle finder vertically. Now rotate the steering wheel to the left the same amount as you did for the first reading and take the same reading from the passengerside wheel. This will be your caster readings. Your passenger side should have about 1/2* more than the driverside. If adjustments need to be made, use the rear excentric to move the wheel in or out.
For camber, straighten the steering wheel and
take the readings from the same flat area used for the caster reading. Should be 0* to 1/2* + -.
Use the front excentric for this adjustment.
Find a couple of straight edges long enough to reach past the front tires fore and aft.(maybe 4" or so). Find 4 identical purches about 4" tall. I used Plastic wire spools. Place one at the front and rear of each wheel. Place the straight edge on top of the purches. Find a way to hold the straight edge in place and measure front and rear of tires. This will be your toe setting. Shoot for about 1/16-1/8" toe in. Make adjustments from one side and count the number of revolutions to get the right reading. Now divide that number by 2 and back off the side you adjusted and tighten the clamps. Go to the other side and revolve the same number and tighten the clamps. This will center you steering wheel. This is the way I do it and it works for me.


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: 68LAR] #132718
10/06/08 11:15 AM
10/06/08 11:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,707
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda Offline
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
Google DIY alignment and read all 419,000 hits. Some are actually quite good. Some are astonishingly bad. Bottom line is you can get it close enough to drive it to someone that can do it right. The problem is finding someone who knows how or is willing to do an old Mopar. Alot of young frontend techs think if it isn't preprogrammed in their machine it can't be done. If so then keep looking until you find a tech that is older than your car and he will know how to do it.

If you are going to try to do it yourself, buy one of these.
http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/item.asp?id=1074&catid=5

Last edited by GomangoCuda; 10/06/08 11:17 AM.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: GomangoCuda] #132719
10/06/08 11:37 AM
10/06/08 11:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
I Live Here
Jim_Lusk  Offline
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Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
It's not hard at all with a cheap alignment guage. I've found lately it's not just old cars they can't get right, many of these guys doing alignments don't have any understanding of the angles and what they can do to help or hurt driveability.

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: GomangoCuda] #132720
10/06/08 11:39 AM
10/06/08 11:39 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,568
Omaha, Nebraska
Scott Carl Offline
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Scott Carl  Offline
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Posts: 1,568
Omaha, Nebraska
I did some alignments when I turned wrenches back in the late 70s. I would cringe when a Mopar or Ford for that matter would come in. They both used similar eccentric type adjustments. The trouble is keeping one eccentric from moving when you have to loosen both to make certain adjustments. Its been over 30 years since I had to do it but I remember them being a nightmare. Least for me. It was one of the few things GM had going for them IMHO. Just loosen the UCA mounts and install or remove the right combination of shims and re tighten. Piece of cake

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: Scott Carl] #132721
10/06/08 12:32 PM
10/06/08 12:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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moper Offline
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Columbia, CT
I do. Anyone that thinks it can't eitehr doesnt understand how it all works, or hasn't tried hard enough. It isnt easy, but anything can be lined up at home. They do make some easier tools now. Very few shops now even know how to do a proper alignment on a rear wheel drive without struts or 4wd. Ask a circle track guy who does their alignments...


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: moper] #132722
10/06/08 03:36 PM
10/06/08 03:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,788
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum Offline
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Magnum  Offline
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Posts: 5,788
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
I've tried a few. Got some surprisingly close after comparing the set up on a real alignment rack.

Some I thought were close and were WAY off when on the rack.

Moral of the story. Center the steering wheel. Make your tie rod assemblies the same length. Base line the toe at home. Let the lasers to the rest.


69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: president61] #132723
10/06/08 05:44 PM
10/06/08 05:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis Offline
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Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
I've been doing my own for several years now, I got tired of paying $50-100 for some monkey to do a halfa$$ed job and tell me that's as good as they can get it because it's old. Plus, I just wanted to learn how my suspension worked, and needed the ability to refine things as I saw fit. I spent about $100-150 for the tools (caster/camber gage and toe gage) and some short ramps and shims to level the car on my driveway. I've more than paid for the parts now, and can tweak to my heart's desire. Just don't expect it to be a fast procedure, especially on an A-body. I probably spend 2-3 hours getting the front end where I want it, starting from scratch.

Clair

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: moper] #132724
10/06/08 06:08 PM
10/06/08 06:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,568
Omaha, Nebraska
Scott Carl Offline
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Scott Carl  Offline
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Posts: 1,568
Omaha, Nebraska
Quote:

I do. Anyone that thinks it can't eitehr doesnt understand how it all works, or hasn't tried hard enough. It isnt easy, but anything can be lined up at home. They do make some easier tools now. Very few shops now even know how to do a proper alignment on a rear wheel drive without struts or 4wd. Ask a circle track guy who does their alignments...




That was probably the issue back then. We had a good front-end machine. State-of-the-art (for its time)Hunter. We were just plagued with crappy hand tools. I remember it seeming like I needed 3 hands to make some of the adjustments

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: Scott Carl] #132725
10/06/08 08:51 PM
10/06/08 08:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,545
Seattle, WA
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375inStroke Offline
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Posts: 1,545
Seattle, WA
Monkeys and their acceptance of loose tolerances has me doing my own. A carpenter's square and a tape measure is all that's needed. 1/4" in at the top of a 15" wheel is 1deg negative camber. Turning the tires left and then right, and comparing the camber change will let you check the caster. Most want the most they can get, but if you want the exact number, there are formulas on the net. My cars drive straight, don't wander, and the tires don't wear unevenly.

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: 375inStroke] #132726
10/06/08 09:51 PM
10/06/08 09:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,374
Rancho Cordova, CA
Exit1965 Offline
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Exit1965  Offline
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Rancho Cordova, CA
I used one of these.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1934/Caster_Camber_Gauges

I did it in about 3 hours, some of which was spent finding some vinyl tiles to use as turn plates (masonite soaked up the grease..).

It's not hard. It was my first alignment, and when I drove the car I was surprised (and proud) that it went straight and felt good. I dont put enough miles on it to notice tire wear, but it measured to spec so that's good enough for me.

For toe, I know I bought the harbor freight gauge, and i knew I tried to use it, but in the end I dont remember if I used it, or used a magnetic laser level and some tape measures..

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: Exit1965] #132727
10/07/08 01:32 AM
10/07/08 01:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
I Live Here
Jim_Lusk  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
Quote:

I used one of these.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1934/Caster_Camber_Gauges





That's the tool that I have. Also, another Moparts member published this alignment technique some time back and it works well these days.

Start with the ride height, then set the front cam all the way out and the rear cam all the way in. Then bring the rear cam out until the camber is in spec. This is the maximum caster that you can get with this car. Then set the toe.

I do have a change to ride height that I like. The factory used a cumbersome method of measuring two places to the floor and taking the difference. I like about an inch between the LCA bumper and frame. I actually measure from the frame to the LCA (not the bumper) and make both sides equal.

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: Jim_Lusk] #132728
10/07/08 08:41 AM
10/07/08 08:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
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denfireguy Offline
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Colorado
Quote:



Start with the ride height,




This is the key. If you want to weed out alignment guys who dont know Mopars or torsion bars, ask them what the first step is (besides putting the car on the rack). If they answer anything besides set the ride height, go somewhere else.
On the other hand, doing it yourself is an exercise in patience. I have gotten very close after totally rebuilding the front end. Then I took it around to alignment shops and asked the magic question. I encouraged them to look it up before answering. Beleive it or not, a kid at the local Pep Boys store answered off the top of his head. And he got my alignment business.
Craig


2014 Ram 1500 Laramie, 73 Cuda
Previous mopars: 62 Valiant, 65 Fury III, 68 Fury III, 72 Satellite, 74 Satellite, 89 Acclaim, 98 Caravan, 2003 Durango
Only previous Non-Mopar: Schwinn Tornado
Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: denfireguy] #132729
10/07/08 11:00 AM
10/07/08 11:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
I Live Here
Jim_Lusk  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
Quote:

Quote:



Start with the ride height,




This is the key. If you want to weed out alignment guys who dont know Mopars or torsion bars, ask them what the first step is (besides putting the car on the rack). If they answer anything besides set the ride height, go somewhere else.
On the other hand, doing it yourself is an exercise in patience. I have gotten very close after totally rebuilding the front end. Then I took it around to alignment shops and asked the magic question. I encouraged them to look it up before answering. Beleive it or not, a kid at the local Pep Boys store answered off the top of his head. And he got my alignment business.
Craig




So true. I even had a guy at a local shop argue with about whether adjusting ride height was part of the alignment procedure........

Re: anyone align front end themselves [Re: Exit1965] #132730
10/07/08 05:38 PM
10/07/08 05:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,568
Omaha, Nebraska
Scott Carl Offline
pro stock
Scott Carl  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,568
Omaha, Nebraska
Quote:

I used one of these.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1934/Caster_Camber_Gauges

I did it in about 3 hours, some of which was spent finding some vinyl tiles to use as turn plates (masonite soaked up the grease..).

It's not hard. It was my first alignment, and when I drove the car I was surprised (and proud) that it went straight and felt good. I dont put enough miles on it to notice tire wear, but it measured to spec so that's good enough for me.

For toe, I know I bought the harbor freight gauge, and i knew I tried to use it, but in the end I dont remember if I used it, or used a magnetic laser level and some tape measures..




I almost bypassed this thread because of the nightmares I encountered in the past. But I was in fact an impatient kid then and after reading all the posts, I might just have to try it myself again. Thanks all, especially Exit1965 and Jim Lusk, for renewed inspiration!!







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