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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1303583
09/14/12 05:01 AM
09/14/12 05:01 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 277
Cincinnati, Ohio
chargincharles
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 277
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Well, being a cheap-[Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean], I'll take a stab at some of this- "Then use a ball hone to knock the glaze off the cylinders as prep for the new rings. basically wanting to freshen up the engine." OK- a ball hone is really just to establish a the cross-hatch pattern that is needed for proper lubrication of the cylinder. It removes very little metal. So, don't think it's going to clean up the bore. "What about the cam kit. Can I get away with just sliding in a new cam using the existing cam bearings?" Cam bearing are CHEAP- especially if you buy them with a rebuild kit or bearing kit- something that will include all the bearing and rings, as well as the freeze plugs and seal/gasket. Buying it as a kit will be much cheaper than buying it piece by piece, and all of those parts are needed even in a basic 'budget' rebuild. "What size and type of rings should I order? I am thinking the ball hone will not take off hardly any material so standard size bore?" You can get the standard cast rings, but moly are better and only slightly more expensive. Well worth the cost- see my above comments about buying a KIT, not part by part. Also, if there is a ridge at the top of the cylider more than a few thousands high, then you are already out of the 'standard bore size' range. Depends on the ridge size though. "As for the crank if there is no major damage I just plan on installing new rod and main bearings and then reinstall it." You should at very least clean up the surfaces with a crocus (sp?) cloth. If there is ANY kind of damage you are going to have to have it cut. No way around this.... "Are there any technique or tips that anybody can offer concerning the ball hone and maybe slight prep of the crank for new bearings?" See the above Also- you say this is going to be mated to a 4-spd? The crank has to have a pilot bearing for that. So you need to see if the transmission end of the crank is machined to accept one, or if the crank was even cast with the depression to machine for one. In 1975 I doubt it will, but it might. If it doesn't, then it will need to be drilled, and then the pilot bearing pressed on. This can be done without a machine shop being involved, but I would not recommend it. As a final comment- really, you spent all the time/effort to pull it apart, it is worth the couple hundred dollars to take it to a machine shop and at least have it cleaned/painted, have the cam bearings and freeze plugs installed, and have the bores, etc checked. No Point in all this work if you have something major (like a cracked water jacket) wrong with the block. Cheap insurance really. Good Luck with it.  CC.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: chargincharles]
#1303584
09/14/12 08:29 AM
09/14/12 08:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:
As a final comment- really, you spent all the time/effort to pull it apart, it is worth the couple hundred dollars to take it to a machine shop and at least have it cleaned/painted, have the cam bearings and freeze plugs installed, and have the bores, etc checked.
No Point in all this work if you have something major (like a cracked water jacket) wrong with the block. Cheap insurance really.
Good Luck with it.
CC.
 Do it right. You don't want to have to pull it back out and redo it for the sake of a few dollars.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: bobs66440]
#1303585
09/14/12 08:35 AM
09/14/12 08:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
As a final comment- really, you spent all the time/effort to pull it apart, it is worth the couple hundred dollars to take it to a machine shop and at least have it cleaned/painted, have the cam bearings and freeze plugs installed, and have the bores, etc checked.
No Point in all this work if you have something major (like a cracked water jacket) wrong with the block. Cheap insurance really.
Good Luck with it.
CC.
Do it right. You don't want to have to pull it back out and redo it for the sake of a few dollars.
what they said. I'd probably have the heads checked and maybe milled .030. Both Summit cams work well, I like the larger 488, but it does like some conert and gear.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1303586
09/14/12 01:29 PM
09/14/12 01:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
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It is easy to get caught up in the urban myths that anyone can do a minor over haul on any Mopar V8 motor and it will make gobs of power, even more than when new  Not True  You need to have the block bores checked for taper and out of roundness, all eight of them. If they have more than .006 taper or more than .003 out of round have it bored and honed  Save your money, do it correctly and avoid a lot of disappointment, same thing on all the wear parts, heads, block, crank and cam, make sure thier in good shape before reusing them 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1303587
09/14/12 04:39 PM
09/14/12 04:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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I like your plan. Get a set of std tension std bore plasma Moly rings/good (full groove on mains) std bearings. Get the flexhone for moly rings 320 grit iirc. keep the cam bearings. Pull the ridge reamer cutter toward you rather than pushing it around the bore & check often as it does not cut even & never go past flush at any point so near flush is fine. I would not get the big Summitt cam. I would get one that would build some cyl psi. Break a ring in two and grind a hook with a sharp edge on the end & use it to clean the piston ring grooves. Mill the heads .030". Yes the outcome depends on the amount of bore wear/out of round/taper/piston wear but it will work either way and you said low buck and once the block/crank is in the shops' possession they WILL persuade you to part with a hefty sum of cash. Flexhone wants you to use their honing oil & I forgot what I used instead (iirc I called them for the grit # & the tech mentioned several substitutes (I dont think it's critical what is used) and he mentioned drill speed/# of passes. Read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com. Yes check the crank & see if it has a pilot hole & if it is large enough for a pilot bushing & if not you can hand drill a hole which does not have to be exact as there is no oil passages nearby you just need room for the trans input shaft tip then use the roller bearing that goes in the larger recess where the torque converter nose goes instead of a pilot bushing and people have even cut the tip of the shaft off if you wont be using the trans in another application just need enough length to go thru your new roller bearing for support. I think some/all of the info is in the archives
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1303589
09/14/12 05:34 PM
09/14/12 05:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
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Quote:
It is easy to get caught up in the urban myths that anyone can do a minor over haul on any Mopar V8 motor and it will make gobs of power, even more than when new Not True You need to have the block bores checked for taper and out of roundness, all eight of them. If they have more than .006 taper or more than .003 out of round have it bored and honed Save your money, do it correctly and avoid a lot of disappointment, same thing on all the wear parts, heads, block, crank and cam, make sure thier in good shape before reusing them
I definitely would not expect it to make gobs of power. Just be able to cruise around and back to the weekly show and shines around town. Thats about it.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1303590
09/14/12 05:50 PM
09/14/12 05:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
I definitely would not expect it to make gobs of power. Just be able to cruise around and back to the weekly show and shines around town. Thats about it.
It's pretty common for threads like this to meander, people will throw $2-300 for insurance at it repeatedly, not that they're wrong, but they don't know your budget and goals (even though you said low-buck at least twice) - and next thign you know it's a $3000 rebuild. People build on what the previous guy says. Read any low-buck-build-a-318-to-drive-to-work thread and see how long it takes for someone to say 'get a 360'.
There have been a handful of budget 440 build threads on here in the last year or so, do some searching and see what you can find.
I would've recommended you get it runnign first and check OP, blowby, compression, coolant sealing, etc, first. That's the first step in a true low-buck build.
Last edited by Fury Fan; 09/14/12 05:53 PM.
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1303591
09/14/12 06:14 PM
09/14/12 06:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 277
Cincinnati, Ohio
chargincharles
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 277
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
once the block/crank is in the shops' possession they WILL persuade you to part with a hefty sum of cash.
I can agree with most of what you say but the above.
This when the OP uses the NO option. In Ohio, if they want to do work that is going to cost more than $25.00 they have to provide a written estimate....so it's real easy to tell them exactly what you want done. No BS required- just man-up and say No.
I normally call around and get prices on exactly what I want done.
I have a couple local shops that I deal with and they know not to futz me around trying to add on services.
My opinion- tell 'em you want the block boiled out and inspected before they do anything else. That should only cost you 50-75 bucks depending on the shop and the area you live in. If you don't have a machine shop handy, most radiator shops will do it for you- but they can't provide inspection, just the boil out.
Once it's clean and everything checks out, have them do (at minimum) the freeze plugs, the cam bearings and paint the block.
This should be under $100 IF you provide the parts.
On the crank- have them clean it, and inspect it. If it's OK, then have them drill for the pilot bushing. Shouldn't cost more than $20-30 to have that much done.
If it needs turned, then it needs turned- there really is no way out of this. You cannot expect any kind of damage on the crank bearing surfaces to make a good runner. You'll kill the crank fairly quickly.
Cross drilling should be obvious when you have the crank out. If it is missing, then I wouldn't sweat it too much for what you are asking of it.
Also don't forget to replace the timing chain with a decent double roller unit. Again- they are pretty cheap, and if you are putting in a new cam, required. If the cam is available with a matching timing chain as part of a 'combo' then do it....cheaper that way.
On the cam, look for a nice RV grind- something that builds torque, not HP. For your purposes, you want more grunt off the line than top-end, so something a bit milder would be in order.
I wouldn't mill the heads unless they require milling to get the gasket surfaces flat again. Remember that when you do mill a head, you are going to have to take the intake into consideration when you decide how much to have removed. Also- Higher Compression means higher octane gas requirements means more $$$ to put gas in the beast. If you are looking for low buck you don't want to have to dump Premium in it and 4 something a gallon.
Finally- as other have pointed out, and I'll point out again-
Do it right the first time, because it sucks to have to pull the whole thing out again because you went cheap on something simple- like bearings, or the crank end seal, or something yer going to smack yourself for later.
As I stated in my first post- I'm a cheap SOB, but engines and transmission are the one place it does not pay to be cheap.....
You can swap meet for the hard parts (heads, intakes, exhaust manifolds/headers, carbs and distributors), but for the wear items, get the best you can afford and replace everything.
And keep in mind resources like Napa, and the phone book when looking for these parts. Not everything has to come from Jegs/Summit/Mancini, etc. Local companies sometimes are better....
Good Luck,
CC.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1303592
09/14/12 06:25 PM
09/14/12 06:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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I did a very similar build to yours on a 76 440. Stock pistons, new rings, 440source heads, lunati voodoo 60303 cam(not too far off from the "big" summit cam), headers. Quote:
The cylinder bores have a slight ridge at the top. I was going to use a ridge reamer and then remove the pistons so I can just re-ring and re-use them.
Then use a ball hone to knock the glaze off the cylinders as prep for the new rings. basically wanting to freshen up the engine.
I didn't ridge ream. I had a bit of a ridge, enough to catch a finger nail on. With a small tap of a rubber mallet from the bottom, the pistons came out fine. I deglazed/honed with a basic 3-stone hone, though they say the flex/ball hones are better.
Quote:
What about the cam kit. Can I get away with just sliding in a new cam using the existing cam bearings?
Yes, you can leave your cam bearings in place. No point in changing them because they need to be pressed in/out by a machine shop or by you with a special cam bearing install tool. Not worth redoing unless you're going to bore the cylinders while you're at it.
Quote:
What size and type of rings should I order? I am thinking the ball hone will not take off hardly any material so standard size bore?
Hastings cast rings. Some guys will recommend moly, but on a backyard hone'n're-ring, I don't think it's a great idea. From what I've heard, regular cast rings are more forgiving to honing with an improper grit and a cylinder that's slightly out of round/taper than moly rings which want more of a perfect bore.
Quote:
As for the crank if there is no major damage I just plan on installing new rod and main bearings and then reinstall it.
Leave the stock bearings in place and run a HV oil pump. The bearing and journal wear together so replacing one without having the crank reground isn't the most useful thing IMO. If you're going to have the crank ground, you might as well have the cylinders bored and the block done while you're at it.
Quote:
Any tips regarding this overhaul would be great. Not wanting anything special with the build just something fun and cheap to get it on the road.
You best be running a 3.55 or numerically higher gear and a 2800rpm or higher stall converter. That big summit cam isn't too far off from that voodoo 60303 that I ran, and with 3.55 gears and a stock converter it was doggy in the bottom end until the rpms picked up. Recurve your distributor, that 440 is going to want a lot of initial timing because of the low CR and cam. Then start tuning your carb. It will run okay, but after having been down this road before I would just put the money towards a proper rebuild. Those stock mid 70's 7.5 compression pistons SUCK!  Also, since the crank won't be drilled for your pilot bushing, you will have to run a pilot bearing off of a 90's dodge magnum v8 and cut down the tip of your 833's input shaft.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: challengermike]
#1303595
09/15/12 08:18 AM
09/15/12 08:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,389
nielsville, minn.
quickd100
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,389
nielsville, minn.
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If there is a ridge you've probably got some cylinder taper. Round straight cylinders are one of the most important parts of making power. you can get by doing just a rering but the motor won't make the power it should. The first mule I put on my dyno was a 440 I reringed. I knew it had alot of cylinder taper but needed a real short term quick fix when I did it. The dyno opened my eyes, the motor made pretty good hp up to 3500rpm, after that the ring seal started to go and the hp numbers went right down the crapper. The motor had so much blowby under load from the dyno it pushed the steel intake gasket up against the intake manifold. I would have the bores checked and if it needs a rebore look around, e-bay, here on Moparts, racing junk,ect., you should be able to find a set of cheap pistons. Dave
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1303597
09/15/12 09:31 AM
09/15/12 09:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,310
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,310
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
....I was going to use a ridge reamer....
I suggest that you don't do this. Nothing good will come from it, will likely ruin or make worse the top ring seal, and could ruin the block. Probably the worst tool ever made.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: BSB67]
#1303598
09/15/12 12:45 PM
09/15/12 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
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Quote:
Quote:
....I was going to use a ridge reamer....
I suggest that you don't do this. Nothing good will come from it, will likely ruin or make worse the top ring seal, and could ruin the block. Probably the worst tool ever made.
The ridge is approximately .002 to .005.
If I dont use the reamer will it hurt the new rings that I put on the stock pistons when the engine is running?
What grit should I use on the cylinders for cast iron rings?
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: BSB67]
#1303600
09/15/12 12:55 PM
09/15/12 12:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
....I was going to use a ridge reamer....
I suggest that you don't do this. Nothing good will come from it, will likely ruin or make worse the top ring seal, and could ruin the block. Probably the worst tool ever made.
How do you suggest he get the pistons out if there is a ridge?
It has it's place and must be used sometimes. Used properly it won't ruin a engine block. 
And if a ridge reamer needs to be used to get the pistons out then I'd bet it needs to be bored.
FWIW I have done many cheapy engine rebuids and have never regretted any of them. But I have the tools to measure stuff to know if I can get away with it.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1303604
09/15/12 03:56 PM
09/15/12 03:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,310
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,310
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
I also agree that one slip up with the ridge reamer and you'll be boring it.
Sheldon
Usually they don't even know that they screwed it up. It will still assemble and run.
The few that I have seen needed to be overbored 0.040" or 0.060" just to cover up the affect of a R.R. used on a std bore block.
Maybe my limited experience is not representative.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#1303606
09/15/12 04:35 PM
09/15/12 04:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,062
Amherst,NY
challengermike
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,062
Amherst,NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
....I was going to use a ridge reamer....
I suggest that you don't do this. Nothing good will come from it, will likely ruin or make worse the top ring seal, and could ruin the block. Probably the worst tool ever made.
The ridge is approximately .002 to .005.
If I dont use the reamer will it hurt the new rings that I put on the stock pistons when the engine is running?
What grit should I use on the cylinders for cast iron rings? [/quote
No it wont hurt the rings, the ridge is there because the cylinder is worn down and the ridge is where the rings didnt touch.As long as the stroke and pistons are the same it will not touch the ridge.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: challengermike]
#1303607
09/15/12 04:38 PM
09/15/12 04:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
....I was going to use a ridge reamer....
I suggest that you don't do this. Nothing good will come from it, will likely ruin or make worse the top ring seal, and could ruin the block. Probably the worst tool ever made.
The ridge is approximately .002 to .005.
If I dont use the reamer will it hurt the new rings that I put on the stock pistons when the engine is running?
What grit should I use on the cylinders for cast iron rings? [/quote
No it wont hurt the rings, the ridge is there because the cylinder is worn down and the ridge is where the rings didnt touch.As long as the stroke and pistons are the same it will not touch the ridge.
What about getting the pistons out and then back in without hurting the rings or the ring lands on the piston with a ridge at the top?
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: CUDA8U]
#1303610
09/16/12 10:22 AM
09/16/12 10:22 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,761
Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,761
Holland MI Ottawa
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Sounds like the good ole days of taking a good running motor and doing rings, bearings, gaskets and freezeplugs are gone?
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: buildanother]
#1303612
09/16/12 11:17 AM
09/16/12 11:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,062
Amherst,NY
challengermike
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,062
Amherst,NY
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Quote:
No, I just think the original poster has not done enough of this stuff to know what will fly, and what won't. 
I agree but you have to start somewhere. Im sure we all started out doing rerings and gaskets. Nothing wrong with just freshing it up.
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Re: Low buck 1975 440 engine overhaul....
[Re: 2boltmain]
#1303613
09/16/12 12:24 PM
09/16/12 12:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Sounds like the good ole days of taking a good running motor and doing rings, bearings, gaskets and freezeplugs are gone?
Depends how worn the cylinders are. If they're bad, the results from a backyard hone'n're-ring job might be very mediocre.
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