Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
#1278077
08/02/12 07:46 AM
08/02/12 07:46 AM
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TimS
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Does it hurt to put Type F tranny fluid in a Mopar instead of the Dexron?
1968 Barracuda Fastback 318-2BBL 904 2.76 Frost Blue Survivor 1970 Roadrunner 440+6 BBL 727 AT 4.10 SG Dana Blue Fire Metallic 1971 Cuda 340-4 BBL 4spd 3.91 SG Curious Yellow 1972 Barracuda 318-2 BBL 904 AT 3.23 1 Legger Tor Red/White Vinyl Top 2007 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi AT Patriot Blue 2011 Dodge Challenger RT 5.7 Hemi 6spd 392 SG Triple Black 2014 Dodge Charger RT Max AWD 5.7 Hemi AT 305 Billet Silver
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: TimS]
#1278079
08/02/12 08:19 AM
08/02/12 08:19 AM
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scratchnfotraction
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Quote:
Does it hurt to put Type F tranny fluid in a Mopar instead of the Dexron?
No. it will work fine in it and is recomended by most people for a firmer shift.
just picked up a case of type F for my BB 727 swap this weekend myself.
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: Dodgem]
#1278082
08/02/12 06:37 PM
08/02/12 06:37 PM
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jbc426
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One of the regular village bragarts over on the slantsix board was bashing the use of Type F fluid in Mopar transmissions. He claims it degrades the bands and clutches because in the petroleum based form, it can't handle the heat as well as Dexron 2.
While there is some truth to the temperature rating of petrolium Type F as compared to petrolium Dexron, the thermal problem goes away when you switch to synthetic Type F.
In the synthetic form, the Type F can handle much higher thermal loads while still providing enhanced thermal stability and lubricity than petrolium transmision fluids, regadless of the type of fluid ie Dextron or Type F.
If you are going to use Type F, pay a bit more and run the synthetic Type F.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1278089
08/02/12 10:29 PM
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TimS
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I'll try it in my 69 Super Bee. Thanks very much for the input.
1968 Barracuda Fastback 318-2BBL 904 2.76 Frost Blue Survivor 1970 Roadrunner 440+6 BBL 727 AT 4.10 SG Dana Blue Fire Metallic 1971 Cuda 340-4 BBL 4spd 3.91 SG Curious Yellow 1972 Barracuda 318-2 BBL 904 AT 3.23 1 Legger Tor Red/White Vinyl Top 2007 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi AT Patriot Blue 2011 Dodge Challenger RT 5.7 Hemi 6spd 392 SG Triple Black 2014 Dodge Charger RT Max AWD 5.7 Hemi AT 305 Billet Silver
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: Chris2581]
#1278091
08/19/12 01:37 PM
08/19/12 01:37 PM
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ledft79
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I was told 35 years ago, Type F only in mopars. That's all that I've ever put in them. I don't know as though Dextron would hurt anything, but Type F for me.
DRIVE EM, DONT HIDE EM.
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: savoy64]
#1278093
08/19/12 04:16 PM
08/19/12 04:16 PM
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383man
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I have a good supply of ATF+4 since I worked at a Dodge dealer for 24 years. All my brother and I have ever used is the Mopar ATF+. It shifts great and looked like brand new when I dropped the pan. I dont think I will drain it and add type F to see if it is any faster. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 08/19/12 04:17 PM.
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: A12]
#1278095
08/19/12 05:15 PM
08/19/12 05:15 PM
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John_Kunkel
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It's not about "cushioning", it's all about the coefficient of friction (the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies). Type F has a more aggressive COF.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#1278096
08/19/12 06:07 PM
08/19/12 06:07 PM
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Quote:
It's not about "cushioning", it's all about the coefficient of friction (the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies). Type F has a more aggressive COF.
John you might want to do a search for cushioning agents and clutches to see what I meant. We had these issues for years in motorcycle wet clutches and there are agents that are meant to cushion or soften clutch engagement and at the worst cause clutch slippage. Won't argue the COF but what determines that is the fluid or oil and the type of friction modifiers that are added to them. Type F has less friction modifiers and or cushioning agents ADDED to it than Dextron or other transmission fluids and transmission oils so it has a higher COF
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: A12]
#1278097
08/19/12 07:10 PM
08/19/12 07:10 PM
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slantzilla
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The main thing was you could use Type F in anything, but you could not use Dexron in a Ford. Ford used different material (I was told paper based) in the bands, and Type F was used to keep them from burning up. B&M Trick Shift that used to be $4 a quart when Type F was $1 was just Type F with blue dye instead of red. I use Type F in all my 904's. I use ATF +4 in all my OD trans'. Just a habit I'd guess.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#1278098
08/19/12 07:52 PM
08/19/12 07:52 PM
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Quote:
It's not about "cushioning", it's all about the coefficient of friction (the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies). Type F has a more aggressive COF.
John with this article we are both correct but the fluid's friction modifiers influences the friction material's "lock-up" point. The COF is still in the material used for the clutch friction plates or discs and the lock-up point depends on the fluid characteristics.
BTW I have always used Type F in my 727's
http://www.studebaker-info.org/PDF/44_TN4_8.PDF
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: pjc360]
#1278103
08/20/12 01:33 AM
08/20/12 01:33 AM
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dave571
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Quote:
no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?
I wouldn't. As stuff get's newer it get's pickier.
Back to the thread, this debate comes up once in a while, but is really moot.
The 727 and 904 are kinda like the cave men of automatics. They work, and work well, with almost any kind of fluid. I've seen guys on here testify to using straight engine oil, cause it would lubricate better.
In any case, will type f work? of course, and wont hurt anything that was any good to begin with..
My question has always been, and will always be, why would you bother? Even ford gave up the stuff in 79. Modern fluids are MUCH better suited for extreme temps etc.
We could use Bias ply tires, and they would work fine, but clearly there is better stuff out there, and the same goes for type F.
FWIW I use either Mercon 5 or atf plus 4 whatever the current stuff is
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: dave571]
#1278104
08/20/12 12:11 PM
08/20/12 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?
I wouldn't. As stuff get's newer it get's pickier.
Back to the thread, this debate comes up once in a while, but is really moot.
The 727 and 904 are kinda like the cave men of automatics. They work, and work well, with almost any kind of fluid. I've seen guys on here testify to using straight engine oil, cause it would lubricate better.
In any case, will type f work? of course, and wont hurt anything that was any good to begin with..
My question has always been, and will always be, why would you bother? Even ford gave up the stuff in 79. Modern fluids are MUCH better suited for extreme temps etc.
We could use Bias ply tires, and they would work fine, but clearly there is better stuff out there, and the same goes for type F.
FWIW I use either Mercon 5 or atf plus 4 whatever the current stuff is
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: A12]
#1278105
08/20/12 12:54 PM
08/20/12 12:54 PM
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360view
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Type F seems to be one of the ATF formulations in the many graphs in this SAE paper about Mopar 9176, such as Figure 9 http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdfTEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF (ATF+3, aka 7176) while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF (+4 aka 9602) ... Torque Converter Clutch Performance – The goal was to develop a fluid that would match or exceed the holding capacity of ATF A. During the course of the program, many candidates were screened for clutch holding capacity. Figure 9 shows how the new ATF B compares to the current ATF A in the bench test developed to simulate the holding capacity of the torque converter clutch. Also shown are the results on two other potential ATF candidates from the development program. ATF F (Mercon?) gave lower coefficients in this test compared to ATF A. and also caused some slippage in the proprietary Chrysler TCC test. However vehicle shift quality performance of ATF F was acceptable. On the other hand ATF G (Dexron3 ?) gave acceptable TCC performance but provided harsher shifts in the vehicle [7] Chrysler Corporation, “Engineering Specification MS- 7176 Change E”, May 14, 1997 [8] Ford Motor Company, “MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification trademarked for Service”, September 1, 1992 [9] Ford Motor Company, “MERCONV Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification Trademarked for Service”, February 1, 1996
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: slantzilla]
#1278106
08/20/12 01:36 PM
08/20/12 01:36 PM
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ChristianCuda
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Quote:
The main thing was you could use Type F in anything, but you could not use Dexron in a Ford. Ford used different material (I was told paper based) in the bands, and Type F was used to keep them from burning up.
B&M Trick Shift that used to be $4 a quart when Type F was $1 was just Type F with blue dye instead of red.
I use Type F in all my 904's. I use ATF +4 in all my OD trans'.
Just a habit I'd guess.
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: 360view]
#1278108
08/20/12 06:37 PM
08/20/12 06:37 PM
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A12
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Quote:
Type F seems to be one of the ATF formulations in the many graphs in this SAE paper about Mopar 9176, such as Figure 9
http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdf
TEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF (ATF+3, aka 7176) while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF (+4 aka 9602)
... Torque Converter Clutch Performance – The goal was to develop a fluid that would match or exceed the holding capacity of ATF A. During the course of the program, many candidates were screened for clutch holding capacity. Figure 9 shows how the new ATF B compares to the current ATF A in the bench test developed to simulate the holding capacity of the torque converter clutch. Also shown are the results on two other potential ATF candidates from the development program. ATF F (Mercon?) gave lower coefficients in this test compared to ATF A. and also caused some slippage in the proprietary Chrysler TCC test. However vehicle shift quality performance of ATF F was acceptable. On the other hand ATF G (Dexron3 ?) gave acceptable TCC performance but provided harsher shifts in the vehicle
[7] Chrysler Corporation, “Engineering Specification MS- 7176 Change E”, May 14, 1997 [8] Ford Motor Company, “MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification trademarked for Service”, September 1, 1992 [9] Ford Motor Company, “MERCONV Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification Trademarked for Service”, February 1, 1996
According to the SAE doc ATF B is the best of the best at present? Even better than F-Type ATF for lock-up and unlock So where do we get this ATF B???
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: A12]
#1278109
08/20/12 07:43 PM
08/20/12 07:43 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#1278110
08/20/12 07:46 PM
08/20/12 07:46 PM
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A12
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Quote:
Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
thanks John
I guess I'll just stick with Type F
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#1278111
08/21/12 10:45 AM
08/21/12 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
I had to re-read the SAE doc, what did Chrysler develop from this, was it Dexron II? Here's the title of the SAE document again, the heading suggests something NEW:
Development and Introduction of Chrysler’s New Automatic Transmission Fluid
Dennis W. Florkowski and Tracey E. King Chrysler Corporation
Anthony P. Skrobul Texas Lubricants
James L. Sumiejski Lubrizol Corporation
Then this:
TEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF, while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF.
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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
[Re: A12]
#1278112
08/21/12 02:21 PM
08/21/12 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
I had to re-read the SAE doc, what did Chrysler develop from this, was it Dexron II? Here's the title of the SAE document again, the heading suggests something NEW:
Development and Introduction of Chrysler’s New Automatic Transmission Fluid
Dennis W. Florkowski and Tracey E. King Chrysler Corporation
Anthony P. Skrobul Texas Lubricants
James L. Sumiejski Lubrizol Corporation
Then this:
TEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF, while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF.
The SAE paper is referencing the development of Mopar ATF+4 (MS-9602) and replacement of the prior Mopar ATF+3 (MS7176E).
Notice how the more modern Mopar ATF+4 utilizes a Fully Synthetic Group III base oil from Texaco and a top notch additive package from the Lubrizol Corporation.
Mopar ATF+4 began development in 1989 so it has roots going back 23-years.
There are newer more advanced fluids on the market today.
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