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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: A12] #1278097
08/19/12 07:10 PM
08/19/12 07:10 PM
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Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
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The main thing was you could use Type F in anything, but you could not use Dexron in a Ford. Ford used different material (I was told paper based) in the bands, and Type F was used to keep them from burning up.

B&M Trick Shift that used to be $4 a quart when Type F was $1 was just Type F with blue dye instead of red.

I use Type F in all my 904's. I use ATF +4 in all my OD trans'.

Just a habit I'd guess.


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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: John_Kunkel] #1278098
08/19/12 07:52 PM
08/19/12 07:52 PM
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N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:


It's not about "cushioning", it's all about the coefficient of friction (the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies). Type F has a more aggressive COF.




John with this article we are both correct but the fluid's friction modifiers influences the friction material's "lock-up" point. The COF is still in the material used for the clutch friction plates or discs and the lock-up point depends on the fluid characteristics.

BTW I have always used Type F in my 727's

http://www.studebaker-info.org/PDF/44_TN4_8.PDF

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: A12] #1278099
08/19/12 09:46 PM
08/19/12 09:46 PM
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I always heard that type F was required in the C4 & C6 transmissions because the Dexron would foam in them.

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: BLACKHEMIRR] #1278100
08/19/12 11:09 PM
08/19/12 11:09 PM
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i got a question that no one has really been able to answer, can type f be used in a non lock up A-518 sucsessfully? I know for the first 3 gears the type f would do fine, but what i wanna know is if type f is good enough to keep the overdrive planetery gears happy.

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: pjc360] #1278101
08/20/12 01:22 AM
08/20/12 01:22 AM
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no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: TimS] #1278102
08/20/12 01:29 AM
08/20/12 01:29 AM
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Aurora, Colorado
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It is OK in the older non-lockup transmissions.
Don't use in a lockup type transmission.
The Type F may shift firmer if the trans has stock clutches. I'm not sure it makes much difference if using the race clutches?

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: pjc360] #1278103
08/20/12 01:33 AM
08/20/12 01:33 AM
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Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:

no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?




I wouldn't. As stuff get's newer it get's pickier.

Back to the thread, this debate comes up once in a while, but is really moot.

The 727 and 904 are kinda like the cave men of automatics. They work, and work well, with almost any kind of fluid. I've seen guys on here testify to using straight engine oil, cause it would lubricate better.

In any case, will type f work? of course, and wont hurt anything that was any good to begin with..

My question has always been, and will always be, why would you bother? Even ford gave up the stuff in 79. Modern fluids are MUCH better suited for extreme temps etc.

We could use Bias ply tires, and they would work fine, but clearly there is better stuff out there, and the same goes for type F.

FWIW I use either Mercon 5 or atf plus 4 whatever the current stuff is

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: dave571] #1278104
08/20/12 12:11 PM
08/20/12 12:11 PM
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Pacific NW USA
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Quote:

Quote:

no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?




I wouldn't. As stuff get's newer it get's pickier.

Back to the thread, this debate comes up once in a while, but is really moot.

The 727 and 904 are kinda like the cave men of automatics. They work, and work well, with almost any kind of fluid. I've seen guys on here testify to using straight engine oil, cause it would lubricate better.

In any case, will type f work? of course, and wont hurt anything that was any good to begin with..

My question has always been, and will always be, why would you bother? Even ford gave up the stuff in 79. Modern fluids are MUCH better suited for extreme temps etc.

We could use Bias ply tires, and they would work fine, but clearly there is better stuff out there, and the same goes for type F.

FWIW I use either Mercon 5 or atf plus 4 whatever the current stuff is





Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: A12] #1278105
08/20/12 12:54 PM
08/20/12 12:54 PM
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Type F seems to be one of the ATF formulations in the many graphs in this SAE paper about Mopar 9176, such as Figure 9

http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdf


TEST FLUIDS -
Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated.
ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF (ATF+3, aka 7176)
while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF (+4 aka 9602)

... Torque Converter Clutch Performance –
The goal was to develop a fluid that would match or exceed the holding capacity of ATF A. During the course of the program, many candidates were screened for clutch holding capacity. Figure 9 shows how the new ATF B compares to the current ATF A in the bench test developed to simulate the holding capacity of the torque converter clutch.
Also shown are the results on two other potential ATF candidates from the development program.
ATF F (Mercon?) gave lower coefficients in this test compared to ATF A. and also caused some slippage in the proprietary Chrysler TCC test. However vehicle shift quality performance of ATF F was acceptable.
On the other hand ATF G (Dexron3 ?) gave acceptable TCC performance but provided harsher shifts in the vehicle

[7] Chrysler Corporation, “Engineering Specification MS- 7176 Change E”, May 14, 1997
[8] Ford Motor Company, “MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification trademarked for Service”, September 1, 1992
[9] Ford Motor Company, “MERCONV Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification Trademarked for Service”, February 1, 1996

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: slantzilla] #1278106
08/20/12 01:36 PM
08/20/12 01:36 PM
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Texas
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Quote:

The main thing was you could use Type F in anything, but you could not use Dexron in a Ford. Ford used different material (I was told paper based) in the bands, and Type F was used to keep them from burning up.

B&M Trick Shift that used to be $4 a quart when Type F was $1 was just Type F with blue dye instead of red.

I use Type F in all my 904's. I use ATF +4 in all my OD trans'.

Just a habit I'd guess.





Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: pjc360] #1278107
08/20/12 05:47 PM
08/20/12 05:47 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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Quote:

i got a question that no one has really been able to answer, can type f be used in a non lock up A-518 sucsessfully? I know for the first 3 gears the type f would do fine, but what i wanna know is if type f is good enough to keep the overdrive planetery gears happy.




Type F is just about the last fluid you would want to run in any OD trans...it lacks the lubrication needed for constantly running OD gears.


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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: 360view] #1278108
08/20/12 06:37 PM
08/20/12 06:37 PM
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N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:

Type F seems to be one of the ATF formulations in the many graphs in this SAE paper about Mopar 9176, such as Figure 9

http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdf


TEST FLUIDS -
Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated.
ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF (ATF+3, aka 7176)
while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF (+4 aka 9602)

... Torque Converter Clutch Performance –
The goal was to develop a fluid that would match or exceed the holding capacity of ATF A. During the course of the program, many candidates were screened for clutch holding capacity. Figure 9 shows how the new ATF B compares to the current ATF A in the bench test developed to simulate the holding capacity of the torque converter clutch.
Also shown are the results on two other potential ATF candidates from the development program.
ATF F (Mercon?) gave lower coefficients in this test compared to ATF A. and also caused some slippage in the proprietary Chrysler TCC test. However vehicle shift quality performance of ATF F was acceptable.
On the other hand ATF G (Dexron3 ?) gave acceptable TCC performance but provided harsher shifts in the vehicle

[7] Chrysler Corporation, “Engineering Specification MS- 7176 Change E”, May 14, 1997
[8] Ford Motor Company, “MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification trademarked for Service”, September 1, 1992
[9] Ford Motor Company, “MERCONV Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification Trademarked for Service”, February 1, 1996




According to the SAE doc ATF B is the best of the best at present? Even better than F-Type ATF for lock-up and unlock So where do we get this ATF B???

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: A12] #1278109
08/20/12 07:43 PM
08/20/12 07:43 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
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Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.


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Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: John_Kunkel] #1278110
08/20/12 07:46 PM
08/20/12 07:46 PM
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N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:


Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.




thanks John

I guess I'll just stick with Type F

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: John_Kunkel] #1278111
08/21/12 10:45 AM
08/21/12 10:45 AM
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Quote:


Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.




I had to re-read the SAE doc, what did Chrysler develop from this, was it Dexron II? Here's the title of the SAE document again, the heading suggests something NEW:

Development and Introduction of Chrysler’s New Automatic Transmission Fluid


Dennis W. Florkowski and Tracey E. King
Chrysler Corporation

Anthony P. Skrobul
Texas Lubricants

James L. Sumiejski
Lubrizol Corporation


Then this:

TEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses
and some typical physical characteristics of the two key
ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler
Factory-Fill ATF, while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF.

Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? [Re: A12] #1278112
08/21/12 02:21 PM
08/21/12 02:21 PM
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Pacific NW USA
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Quote:

Quote:


Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.




I had to re-read the SAE doc, what did Chrysler develop from this, was it Dexron II? Here's the title of the SAE document again, the heading suggests something NEW:

Development and Introduction of Chrysler’s New Automatic Transmission Fluid

Dennis W. Florkowski and Tracey E. King
Chrysler Corporation

Anthony P. Skrobul
Texas Lubricants

James L. Sumiejski
Lubrizol Corporation


Then this:

TEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses
and some typical physical characteristics of the two key
ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler
Factory-Fill ATF, while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF.




The SAE paper is referencing the development of Mopar ATF+4 (MS-9602) and replacement of the prior Mopar ATF+3 (MS7176E).

Notice how the more modern Mopar ATF+4 utilizes a Fully Synthetic Group III base oil from Texaco and a top notch additive package from the Lubrizol Corporation.

Mopar ATF+4 began development in 1989 so it has roots going back 23-years.

There are newer more advanced fluids on the market today.

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