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My first Mopar what should i do with it
#1274021
07/25/12 09:47 PM
07/25/12 09:47 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Kansas City MO
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Hello all,
I have just bought my first Mopar a 1971 Doge Challenger and can’t stop smiling when I look at it.
I have been reading previous post to learn as much as I can; but not everything answers my concerns.
The car: 71 Challenger with a 318, power steering, AC, and power brakes with and front disks conversation already done, 741 rear not sure of the gears.
What I want to do with this car is to upgrade the overall performance not sure to what a 360 or the 440. Cost is defiantly a factor in this build. I have found some 360’s with a 727 and some 70’s RV 440’s with a 727 and their prices are comparable. I need to know what each one would need to work in my car and a guess on the cost of each build. My main goal is to make sure a stock mustang couldn't touch this car.
Thanks
Last edited by Jonny Vette; 07/26/12 03:08 AM.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: mikemee1331]
#1274026
07/26/12 02:50 AM
07/26/12 02:50 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
well my heart says 440 (i'm a big block guy) but the 360 will still do it, far fewer headaches, readily available parts, and less $$$!  i'm sure all the small block guys will agree.
All I have had have been small blocks and from what I have read the 360 should have no problem going right in. But there is something to say about the roar of a big block and the power they can produce. What are some of the headaches that I could run in to? I know that the motor mounts and radiator will need to be change, but I not sure of some things like the k member, torsion bar or any of the brackets for the AC, alternator and etc. .
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: BulletBob]
#1274030
07/26/12 03:36 AM
07/26/12 03:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
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Small block MoPars are nice for A bodies (Darts, pre-70 Barracudas, Dusters, Demons, Valiants, etc) and you can make them run real hard pretty cheap.
But you bought a MoPar for a reason and you didn't buy an A body. MoPar's legend isn't based in small blocks, no matter how many small block guys come on here and tell you how their 340 Duster cleaned up on the street. Build a 440 and you wont regret it.
Everyone always says its a lot of work/expensive to change to a big block, but in my opinion it really isn't. You need a big block tranny. SO WHAT? You need to do some type of performance build to your existing tranny anyway, and a core 727 isn't expensive (find an earlier 440 C body unit, it should have beefy internals). Or go the mail order complete tranny route. Either way you have a 904 which is great when you fill it with aftermarket parts for drag racing, but for a durable street/strip unit that can reuse mostly stock parts a 727 is where is at. So the tranny is a wash.
Alright, so now you need a radiator. You're probably purchasing headers and an aftermarket exhaust anyway, so no lost expense changing the exhaust. You MAY need to lengthen the coil wire. And you will need the alternator and power steering pump brackets for a big block as well as the pulleys.
So a radiator, pulleys, and alternator and power steering pump brackets are all that I see as being additional costs that you wouldn't have incurred otherwise. Its literally a bolt in deal with the correct engine brackets and the big block 727. Fidlerfingers power numbers are impressive, but its a stroker, and probably has aftermarket heads. How much $$$ does he have in it? You can reach similar numbers with a pretty basic 440 for probably cheaper. Also, on a small block, the distributor is in the wrong place (back of engine). The intake manifold on a big block doesn't flow antifreeze, which makes life easier. And on a small block and the water pump/timing cover setup is just stupid, and it angers me that both Chrysler and Ford managed to reached the same stupid consensus on how the front of an engine should come together. BUILD A BIG BLOCK.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 07/26/12 03:43 AM.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1274031
07/26/12 03:46 AM
07/26/12 03:46 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
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Read this thread and keep in mind that low compression 440s can be found for between 500 and 750 bucks pretty easy as a starting foundation. Sometimes (but not often) quite a bit less, sometimes more. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...&PHPSESSID=
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1274033
07/26/12 04:38 AM
07/26/12 04:38 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
Read this thread and keep in mind that low compression 440s can be found for between 500 and 750 bucks pretty easy as a starting foundation. Sometimes (but not often) quite a bit less, sometimes more.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...&PHPSESSID=
I found a 1974 RV 440 with everything water pump, alternator etc.. with a 727 for $500 and I found a rebuilt 1980’s 360 with 727 for $450 all within a 3 hour drive
I have heard some debate over using a RV big block that there only built for torque not power. what would I need to do to make it mean and is the k member an issue?
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: goldmember]
#1274035
07/26/12 05:11 AM
07/26/12 05:11 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
Depends on the goal,a "stock mustang" can mean most anything. I'd build a strong streetable 408ish cube small block,but for a few $$$ more you could get the same result or better with a big block. Your choice. How bout a stock iron headed pump gas 446" bb in a 3700lbs run mid 10's and drives everywhere on pump gas? http://www.jsiskphotos.com/Cars/Holly-Sp...8&k=bqrX4CH
I agree mustangs are all over the place in performance but usually last in a race LOL
But I would think somewhere in the mid to low 12’s would do just fine. It’s going to be on the street more than the strip.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: Jonny Vette]
#1274036
07/26/12 05:26 AM
07/26/12 05:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
goldmember
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For that a small block would be easy to do.A 4" stroker kit(no eagle cast crank!!) with either EQ or edelbrock heads mild ported,10 to 1 comp,edelbrock performer RPM intake,headers(any that fit),750 holley,3.73 gears,3000+ converter,camshaft(depends on if you want hyd,hyd roller ,flat tappet),but something 230@.050=240@.050 108-112 lsa .525-.560 is very mild and very easy to attain low 12's or BETTER.
Last edited by goldmember; 07/26/12 05:37 AM.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: goldmember]
#1274037
07/26/12 05:33 AM
07/26/12 05:33 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
For that a small block would be easy to do.
Any suggestion on what type of build would get me there I would most likely start with the a 360 platform if I decide on the small block option
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: Jonny Vette]
#1274041
07/26/12 09:16 AM
07/26/12 09:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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Quote:
Jonny Vette is a nick name my friends gave me. I have owned corvettes since I was 16 and I still love them. But when I decided I wanted a muscle car and after doing some research Mopar just seemed to be the epitome of muscle.
You did research to pick a muscle car.
So the Mopar gene is not really in your DNA...
But I'm glad you're here.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: Jonny Vette]
#1274042
07/26/12 10:29 AM
07/26/12 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
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Quote:
Quote:
Read this thread and keep in mind that low compression 440s can be found for between 500 and 750 bucks pretty easy as a starting foundation. Sometimes (but not often) quite a bit less, sometimes more.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...&PHPSESSID=
I found a 1974 RV 440 with everything water pump, alternator etc.. with a 727 for $500 and I found a rebuilt 1980’s 360 with 727 for $450 all within a 3 hour drive
I have heard some debate over using a RV big block that there only built for torque not power. what would I need to do to make it mean and is the k member an issue?
Believe it or not the RV big block is the same as a non high performance 440, theres nothing special about it.
There are two kinds of 440s. HP (or High Performance) versions which were rated at 375 horsepower prior to 72. These came in Charger R/Ts, GTXs, Challenger R/Ts, 'Cudas, Coronet R/Ts, and optional in some full size cars. Then there is the non-performance version, the 350 horsepower version prior to 72. This came in full size cars and in your case, RVs(Chrysler New Yorkers, Chrysler 300s, Imperials, some Plymouth Furys, some Dodge Polaras, etc.)
In the later years the compression ratios dropped and emissions equipment was added and the horsepower ratings changed, but the parts are all generally the same. There are two differences between the low performance and high performance version.
The high performance version came with a bigger (but still very small) cam. In 68-70 the low performance version used a Holley 600, which the HP version used an ~750 cfm Carter. Later on they all used Thermoquads. The HP version also had the HP exhaust manifolds and a windage tray. Other than that the engines are identical.
You would probably be replacing the stock cam, carb, and exhaust manifolds anyway so it doesn't matter where you start. The only thing to be aware of is that some later RV engines used a special head casting with special cooling passages. If you have those they will work fine, but most people ditch them for the regular passenger car heads.
If the tranny is from the RV it is probably a truck tranny with a short tail shaft. It will have heavy duty internal parts, but the tail shaft wont work in your car. You can use it in combination with any 727 to build a beefy unit though. All you really need to do is have the tail shaft changed.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: pa340dart]
#1274044
07/26/12 12:35 PM
07/26/12 12:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Chino Valley
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Before diving in and swapping out stuff, get to know local mopar guys and hopefully ride in a few BB and SB cars. There are a lot of little things on these cars that confuse people that come from a different background. Get to know it before diving in. If you have spent much time here, you may have seen a comment about the seller or previous owner of a car being a 'chevy guy' or 'Camaro guy'. This is not praise, it's shorthand for someone doing something to a Mopar that is not viewed favorably. Try not to be that guy. 
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: pa340dart]
#1274047
07/26/12 01:16 PM
07/26/12 01:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,564
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
bigsbigelow
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St. Clair Shores, Michigan
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Quote:
I totally agree with you RodStRace
Don't start tearing into it until you have a plan and know what you want AND document all changes
Although in his first post he mentions a 741 rear
I thought 741's only came in a-bodies and had a small bolt pattern
Maybe its a typo and a 742 rear
I bet the 741 was swapped in for a broken sure grip or to replace a peg leg.
The tech archive write up on Mopar diffs
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/axle/1.html
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: Jonny Vette]
#1274048
07/26/12 01:18 PM
07/26/12 01:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Mass
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Go right to the issue, if you want HP, drop in a 440, you can always add a 6pak later, if that floats your boat....I've had my share of smblk E bodies, they can be fun in 340/340-6/360 combos...but the 440 is where it's at for HP, the $$$ you start throwing at the smblk later on to up the HP could be spent on an intial install of a 440.....if a 4spd is your desire, save up/collect all the parts required, then when your ready, do the swap...
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: RodStRace]
#1274051
07/26/12 03:40 PM
07/26/12 03:40 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
Before diving in and swapping out stuff, get to know local mopar guys and hopefully ride in a few BB and SB cars.
There are a lot of little things on these cars that confuse people that come from a different background.
Get to know it before diving in. If you have spent much time here, you may have seen a comment about the seller or previous owner of a car being a 'chevy guy' or 'Camaro guy'. This is not praise, it's shorthand for someone doing something to a Mopar that is not viewed favorably. Try not to be that guy.
I agree I don’t plan on jumping in head first not knowing what I’m doing or what I want. The 318 that is in the car now is currently getting cleaned up and will work just fine for the moment. And then after doing plenty of research I will hopefully find the best combination for the car and for me. So I really do appreciate all the help you guys are offering.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: bigsbigelow]
#1274052
07/26/12 03:42 PM
07/26/12 03:42 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
Quote:
Although in his first post he mentions a 741 rear
I thought 741's only came in a-bodies and had a small bolt pattern
Maybe its a typo and a 742 rear
I bet the 741 was swapped in for a broken sure grip or to replace a peg leg.
The tech archive write up on Mopar diffs
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/axle/1.html
741 is what I saw on the case I have had the car for a week now and all I have done is cleaned it up and searched for numbers still no idea what the gears in it could be
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: moparjo68]
#1274053
07/26/12 03:54 PM
07/26/12 03:54 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
Have you considered a 383? They are more easy to find than a 440 and cheaper in price. I built my 383 with the same specs as the Road Runner 383. Plenty of power!!! If you look on Craigslist right now, they probably have several for sale.
There is one for sale nearby but I know less about the 383 than the 440 but I can’t say I know a lot about it. So what could be some of the advantage of the 383?
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: pa340dart]
#1274054
07/26/12 04:01 PM
07/26/12 04:01 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Quote:
That 741 ?? rear WILL have to be changed if you go with Big Block
I have seen others using a 741 with their big blocks. I did plan on putting a 3.55 or 3.91 sure grip in it but would I really need to replace the case?
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: Jonny Vette]
#1274055
07/26/12 04:03 PM
07/26/12 04:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,319
St. Louis, Mo
318 Stroker
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St. Louis, Mo
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Quote:
and is the k member an issue?
K-member is the same for small block and big block
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: Jonny Vette]
#1274057
07/26/12 05:04 PM
07/26/12 05:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 486
Sonoran desert, Arizona, USA
moparjo68
mopar
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Posts: 486
Sonoran desert, Arizona, USA
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The 383 is LESS prestigious than the 440. But, they are more plentiful and if you build it, for example, to the specs of the Road Runner engine, you would have one heck of an engine with loads of torque and horsepower. The 383 was discontinued after the '71 model year but thousands of them are still around and awaiting to be "reborn".
I believe the K member is the same for 318 and 383. If not, please correct me. And if K member is the same, the mounts will be the same as 318.
Last edited by moparjo68; 07/26/12 06:00 PM.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: fiddlerfingers]
#1274059
07/26/12 06:57 PM
07/26/12 06:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Quote:
Its alot of work changing over to a big block.
Not really. Most of his 318 stuff would need to be replaced anyway. His stock 904 transmission won't take any serious HP. To swap the big block in you're need a set of readily available motor mounts, new rad which you'd want anyway if you built a hot small block, new transmission, shorter driveshaft, then just the nuts and bolts. I dunno, I swapped a small block magnum into a 6cyl jeep wrangler and didn't think it was too bad a job, so calling a challenger SB to BB swap a "lot of work" seems laughable to me.
Quote:
Have you considered a 383? They are more easy to find than a 440 and cheaper in price.
Waste of time and money IMO. Even if he was to buy a rebuildable core 383 for 150 bucks versus a core 440 for 600 bucks, that $450 cost difference is a drop in the bucket by the time you have the rest of your parts bought and the engine built. Better piston choices for the 440 and the rest of the parts/labor will cost the same between a 383 and 440.
Drive the car as-is for now and build a 440 on the side. Or a 400 with a 440 crank = 451.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1274060
07/26/12 07:07 PM
07/26/12 07:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,886
Lost and Spaced
bboogieart
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Like said b-4, drive it awhile. You will get a better idea of what you want. E-body cars can be great canyon carvers with a small block and some suspension upgrades or a great drag car with the big block and some totally different suspension up grades. Get to know your car and decide what you want to do with it. You can chase down and tromp mustangs either track. Nice car by the way. Glad you have seen the light.
I have mechanical Aptitude.
I can screw up anything.
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: bboogieart]
#1274062
07/27/12 07:15 AM
07/27/12 07:15 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 14
Kansas City MO
Jonny Vette
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Kansas City MO
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I totally agree with you guys, I was planning on driving it with the 318 till I could get all the parts together. I wanted to get an idea of the advantages and disadvantages between the two. And it seems that everything needs to be upgrade for either one so the cost is manly in the build. Now I have heard the 440 can affect the handling is this true? Now I’m not planning on smashing thought turns constantly but l don’t want something that I have to fight to have fun on winding roads. And thanks for the compliments on the car. She has a long road ahead of her to look as good as some of your guys cars but I’ll get her there. 
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Re: My first Mopar what should i do with it
[Re: Jonny Vette]
#1274064
07/27/12 08:04 AM
07/27/12 08:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction
The member whose name is actually Art
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The member whose name is actually Art
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,538
Albany, NY
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Good morning Johnny V, welcome to the Board!
I'll jusst comment on the handling - you'll want to stiffen the torsion bars to at least factory specs for a BB if you go that route. If you like a tighter feel, add a front sway bar.
Other than that a BB basically handles as well as the SB in stock form. They will 'feel'different though. I drove a B-body with SB for 10 years before buying another of the same model,but with a factory BB. The BB definitely understeered more,but the more I drove it,the more I got used to the way the weight feels (Again, both cars are factory stock front-ends) and now I consider them equal in handling. But the feel of the SB is def lighter. Others may have a different opinion.
I am currently building another BB B-body more as a road car and will put a front sway bar in it, probably a thin rear swaybar too from Firm Feel.
Thanks for the interesting thread!
-Art
65 Satellite hardtop 361/4bbl console 727 2.76
67 Satellite convert 383/2bbl column 727 3.23
67 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3 Zagato. Alloy body, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
67 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1.3. Alloy panel, 1.3L V4 DOHC 4-spd
71 Alfa Romeo GT Junior 1300 Zagato, 1.3L 4cyl DOHC hemi 5-spd
82 Alfa Romeo GTV6 2.5L SOHC hemi V6 5-spd transaxle
75 Maserati Bora US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
77 Maserati Khamsin Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8 5-spd ZF
07 Aston Martin DB9 6.0L DOHC V12 6spd transaxle
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