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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: Paul_Fancsali]
#1268453
07/25/12 08:23 AM
07/25/12 08:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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Quote:
1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible
OK. I can't disagree that the factory never put in A/C with a 4 speed Fury BUT, I'm still 99.99% inclined to feel that the dealer installed it.
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1268454
07/25/12 02:19 PM
07/25/12 02:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 511
AZ.
696pack
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Quote:
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Yes but in 1966 only a 350 h.p. engine was available which had the lower lift cam unlike the 383 H.P. and the 440s with same came that came in the 375 h.p.
The reason A/C was not available with 4 speed and high lift cam was because of problems with overreved compressors.
D, a couple of thoughts.....
The 68-69 383 four speed A/C cars came with the 330 horse engine. Why couldn't the 440-four speed A/C cars come with the lower powered 440?
Compressor speed - couldn't that have been easily solved with a different size pulley?
383-4speed A/C car production is relatively small. There were a lot fewer 440 equipped cars. How large of a market could there have been for this combination? Would you have sold 10? 20? 100? a year?
Would it have been worth it (remember Chrysler was supposed to be a for profit business) to design, build, ship, store, inventory and promote the availability plus deal with any back end warranty or repair issues for a small run?
(Just to reminder, the only thing that made the 66 383 an "HP" was making it a 4-bbl. There wasn't an 383 335 HP variant in the B bodies until 68 nor the 440 HP cam until 67. No 375 horse 440 until 67. Just want to keep our engines straight to keep the thread on topic)
Doug, the quote you reference above was my answer to the availability of A/C with a 440 and a 4 speed on the C bodies which it WAS available and for the reason I stated. As you stated only the 350 h.p. 440 was available in 1966 and it had the lower revving cam.
At 18 years old in 1968 when I was selling Dodges new I was the exception to the rule in that I liked performance cars WITH A/C. I asked both our factory sales and srvice reps why the 4 spped A/C combo was not available on R/Ts and the answer was because of compressor problems. What else could it be? All of the componants were readily available and being used in other applications. Yes, it would be an easy fix with a different size pulley why they chose not to is anyones guess.
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: Commando1]
#1268455
07/25/12 02:23 PM
07/25/12 02:23 PM
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Posts: 511
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Quote:
Quote:
1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible
OK. I can't disagree that the factory never put in A/C with a 4 speed Fury BUT, I'm still 99.99% inclined to feel that the dealer installed it.
It was not a matter of "Know the right people and any combo is possible" in this case because 440-4 speed-A/C WAS available. I still have a 1966 Dodge Dealer Data Book and there is nothing to state it was not available.
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1268459
07/26/12 02:11 AM
07/26/12 02:11 AM
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696pack
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Quote:
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1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible
OK. I can't disagree that the factory never put in A/C with a 4 speed Fury BUT, I'm still 99.99% inclined to feel that the dealer installed it.
It was not a matter of "Know the right people and any combo is possible" in this case because 440-4 speed-A/C WAS available. I still have a 1966 Dodge Dealer Data Book and there is nothing to state it was not available.
'66 didn't have a 350HP engine and that C body probably had maybe 3.23 at best.
Then what was the rating? In 65 the 426 wedge was 365 and my understanding the 440 in 66 was downgraded to 350.
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1268461
07/26/12 09:11 AM
07/26/12 09:11 AM
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South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
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Quote:
The '66 Plymouth book is very explicit.
You beat me to the punch in posting that excerpt from the factory literature.
Yours is a little hard to read so excuse me if I make it more readable to the unconvinced but it needs to be driven home: 
1965:
1966:
I repeat my original position: It was a 99.999% probability it was dealer installed unless you produce for me a build sheet that shows otherwise.
Now, for all you guys who foolishly INSIST that they have a 1974 440 with a steel crank FROM THE FACTORY.... 
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 696pack]
#1268462
07/26/12 10:23 AM
07/26/12 10:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,964
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
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1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible
OK. I can't disagree that the factory never put in A/C with a 4 speed Fury BUT, I'm still 99.99% inclined to feel that the dealer installed it.
It was not a matter of "Know the right people and any combo is possible" in this case because 440-4 speed-A/C WAS available. I still have a 1966 Dodge Dealer Data Book and there is nothing to state it was not available.
'66 didn't have a 375HP engine and that C body probably had maybe 3.23 at best.
Then what was the rating? In 65 the 426 wedge was 365 and my understanding the 440 in 66 was downgraded to 350.
Typo , meant to type 375HP
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: Commando1]
#1268463
07/26/12 10:26 AM
07/26/12 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,964
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
I repeat my original position: It was a 99.999% probability it was dealer installed unless you produce for me a build sheet that shows otherwise.
Don't forget who you are dealing with , the doctor of deceit , he'll have that buildsheet for you in no time ...
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: Commando1]
#1268464
07/26/12 02:54 PM
07/26/12 02:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,948
Harlan, Iowa
69CoronetRT
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Quote:
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The '66 Plymouth book is very explicit.
You beat me to the punch in posting that excerpt from the factory literature.
Yours is a little hard to read so excuse me if I make it more readable to the unconvinced but it needs to be driven home:
Now, for all you guys who foolishly INSIST that they have a 1974 440 with a steel crank FROM THE FACTORY....
Thanks. The board resized my picture. The full scan comes up when you click on the attachment.
I'm not sure I understand your comment about the 74 cast/forged crank. Could you explain a little more?
Seeking:
1969 St. Louis plant VINs, SPD, and VONs.
Over 2,000 thanks to you!
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 3hundred]
#1268465
07/26/12 03:00 PM
07/26/12 03:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,948
Harlan, Iowa
69CoronetRT
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Quote:
I understood it to be a problem with sustained high RPM operation, like with a lower geared car. A different pulley would hurt low RPM A/C efficiency. Sustained high RPM operation a problem, true or not, I don't know.
A 440-4 would have come with 3.54 gears standard. A/C was available with 3.55s.
Was there something different about the pulleys or compressors used on a 3:55 gear car with A/C that couldn't be used with a car that had 3:54?
Is a compressor running on a 4,000 RPM car with 3:23s seeing something different than a car running 4,000 RPM with 3:54's?
Seeking:
1969 St. Louis plant VINs, SPD, and VONs.
Over 2,000 thanks to you!
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1268466
07/26/12 03:41 PM
07/26/12 03:41 PM
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696pack
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Answering a few different things here. 1. Most of my experience comes from being in the new car business with Dodge from 1968-1974. I have had several old Plymouths over the years but basically rely on the factory info I have or have access to Which the majority is Dodge. I have nothing on Plymouth and know little about the minuet differences other than there were some from the two sister brands. This is apparently one of them with the availability of 440-4 speed-A/C. For Dodge they are specific to mention what the two 440s were available in and with what trans as well as very specific about what engine/trans combos A/C was NOT available with in this Data Book link. http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/imag..._Monaco0020.jpg2. As I stated previously in this thread my info on the availability of A/C with a 4 speed on a 375 h.p. car came from both the factory sales and service reps. I believe the concern was the very likely possibility of over-reving the engine and compressor with the manual trans as in missed shifts, etc. which is certainly not as apt to happen with an auto trans. 3. Thanks for the info on the h.p. ratings. Did that info come from pages 96/97 of the Data Book as I just noticed that page is missing from my book? I was not aware that the dual exhaust cars were rated at 365 h.p. and was only aware of the 350 h.p. rating of the single exhaust cars. The info above states the engine (s?) have a standard cam. Assuming they have the same cam and the exhaust is the only difference then why are they rated at different RPMs? Also, did the dual exhaust cars have hipo exhaust manifolds like the later 67 375 h.p. engines?
Last edited by 696pack; 07/26/12 03:52 PM.
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 696pack]
#1268467
07/26/12 07:34 PM
07/26/12 07:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,948
Harlan, Iowa
69CoronetRT
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Quote:
Answering a few different things here.
1. Interesting. More research is required
2. Would a 440 over rev more than a 383? Not trying to be a jerk about this concept but everything that is mentioned about RPMs, gears and over reving a compressor with a 440...wouldn't the same thing have happened with a 383? Over reveing is over reving regardless of the CID.
3. Page 98
Seeking:
1969 St. Louis plant VINs, SPD, and VONs.
Over 2,000 thanks to you!
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 6T9Hemi]
#1268468
07/26/12 09:20 PM
07/26/12 09:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,357
central Florida
VL21
pro stock
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central Florida
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Take a look at the rods in a V2 or RV2 compressor...then a 5 horse Briggs & Stratton...and then think about that compressor cycling in and out at 5k, I get their concern. I always thought the GM compressor was a little tougher, and for some reason I think availability of a/c was better?  The police units cut the compressor out at full throttle, seems like something could have been done, but as posted above, a/c 4spd sales were a small pct of totals.
It takes gasoline to interest me.
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Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ?
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1268470
07/26/12 11:36 PM
07/26/12 11:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 511
AZ.
696pack
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Quote:
Quote:
Answering a few different things here.
1. Interesting. More research is required
2. Would a 440 over rev more than a 383? Not trying to be a jerk about this concept but everything that is mentioned about RPMs, gears and over reving a compressor with a 440... wouldn't the same thing have happened with a 383? Over reveing is over reving regardless of the CID.
.Page 98
Yes, the same thing would happen with the 383/335 and that is the reason for a 330 h.p. (lower reving cam) in an A/C Bee or RR. In fact, the 383/335 is actually a higher reving engine stock than the 440.
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