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#2254408 - 02/15/17 10:50 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
lilcuda Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 303
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Originally Posted By RJS
If I read what you wrote correctly you still need to check those floats. I think you tested them with the car off and that isn't the way to go. Get car running and up to temperature. Take out front site plug and set so fuel is just under hole, or takes a slight rocking to spill. Do the same with rear but that one can be a tad higher but only to the point of just about trickling out. Now go on to the 4 corner idle screws with a vacuum gauge hooked up to full vacuum. Start car and block wheels, put car in gear and adjust at rear of carb to achieve the highest steadiest vacuum per corner. After that see if you have to lower idle by adjusting idle screw.
Ron


Interesting. Holley's instructional video said that the engine shouldn't be running when using an electric fuel pump. I did recheck the floats per their video after I adjusted the fuel pressure. I don't have a vacuum gauge right now so I can't really do the entire process at the moment.


This makes no sense. Must have been written by their attorneys. You want the car running, after all, that's how it will be idling, not with the pump on and the engine off.

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#2254432 - 02/15/17 11:59 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: lilcuda]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Originally Posted By lilcuda
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Originally Posted By RJS
If I read what you wrote correctly you still need to check those floats. I think you tested them with the car off and that isn't the way to go. Get car running and up to temperature. Take out front site plug and set so fuel is just under hole, or takes a slight rocking to spill. Do the same with rear but that one can be a tad higher but only to the point of just about trickling out. Now go on to the 4 corner idle screws with a vacuum gauge hooked up to full vacuum. Start car and block wheels, put car in gear and adjust at rear of carb to achieve the highest steadiest vacuum per corner. After that see if you have to lower idle by adjusting idle screw.
Ron


Interesting. Holley's instructional video said that the engine shouldn't be running when using an electric fuel pump. I did recheck the floats per their video after I adjusted the fuel pressure. I don't have a vacuum gauge right now so I can't really do the entire process at the moment.


This makes no sense. Must have been written by their attorneys. You want the car running, after all, that's how it will be idling, not with the pump on and the engine off.


Check 1:56. shruggy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge-mIk6nEYQ&t=123s
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#2254434 - 02/16/17 12:16 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Originally Posted By GoodysGotaCuda
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Originally Posted By GoodysGotaCuda
Originally Posted By lilcuda
A properly tuned Holley shouldn't need a choke in Southern California. One good pump of the pedal to about halfway, then crank it and it should fire right up. If not, something isn't right.


Agreed. My Warlock has an Edelbrock carb with no choke and I have started it in below freezing temperatures. It's grumpy, sure, but it will start.


MuuMuu, what ignition is in the car?


If the choke isn't the problem then maybe it's just me. I have an MSD Ready-2-Run.


Stock ignition box?


It had electronic ignition before, but I'm not sure the new distributor needs one. I'm not seeing it anywhere.


Attachments
MSD.PNG


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#2254465 - 02/16/17 07:20 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 23914
Loc: Texas
Stupid question, but is it trying to fire as you let go of the key?

I always have to question how the aftermarket ignition was wired. It is not uncommon for someone to grab a 12v "run" wire and use that. The ignition, or distributor in this case, needs 12v in both the "start" and "run" key positions.

Depending on your starting issue, it could be as simple as that. I'd verify the distributor has 12v on that red wire in the start and run key position [red wire]. Disconnect one of the two small wires at the starter relay to check the "start" voltage.
_________________________
1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - Build Thread
1976 Dodge Warlock - "Her Truck" - 360/727 2wd
2016 BMW X1
2016 Subaru WRX

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#2254589 - 02/16/17 11:34 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
lilcuda Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 303
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Originally Posted By lilcuda
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Originally Posted By RJS
If I read what you wrote correctly you still need to check those floats. I think you tested them with the car off and that isn't the way to go. Get car running and up to temperature. Take out front site plug and set so fuel is just under hole, or takes a slight rocking to spill. Do the same with rear but that one can be a tad higher but only to the point of just about trickling out. Now go on to the 4 corner idle screws with a vacuum gauge hooked up to full vacuum. Start car and block wheels, put car in gear and adjust at rear of carb to achieve the highest steadiest vacuum per corner. After that see if you have to lower idle by adjusting idle screw.
Ron


Interesting. Holley's instructional video said that the engine shouldn't be running when using an electric fuel pump. I did recheck the floats per their video after I adjusted the fuel pressure. I don't have a vacuum gauge right now so I can't really do the entire process at the moment.


This makes no sense. Must have been written by their attorneys. You want the car running, after all, that's how it will be idling, not with the pump on and the engine off.


Check 1:56. shruggy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge-mIk6nEYQ&t=123s


Again, sounds like it was written by attorneys. All I know is that my former co-worker who has been building engines and tuning Holleys for 30+ years taught me to do it with the car running regardless of fuel pump type. He had a Corvette with a 540 hp 383 with a Holley carb that he daily drove for years. It fired on the first crank every time, almost like a fuel-injected car. I used his method and my 66 Barracuda would fire up with literally a tap of the key.

Didn't IMM build your engine? Maybe see if they can help you tune it better?

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#2254591 - 02/16/17 11:35 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
lilcuda Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 303
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By GoodysGotaCuda
Stupid question, but is it trying to fire as you let go of the key?

I always have to question how the aftermarket ignition was wired. It is not uncommon for someone to grab a 12v "run" wire and use that. The ignition, or distributor in this case, needs 12v in both the "start" and "run" key positions.

Depending on your starting issue, it could be as simple as that. I'd verify the distributor has 12v on that red wire in the start and run key position [red wire]. Disconnect one of the two small wires at the starter relay to check the "start" voltage.


Good suggestion!

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#2254607 - 02/16/17 12:08 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: lilcuda]
RJS Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5345
Loc: JERSEY
Originally Posted By lilcuda
Originally Posted By RJS
If I read what you wrote correctly you still need to check those floats. I think you tested them with the car off and that isn't the way to go. Get car running and up to temperature. Take out front site plug and set so fuel is just under hole, or takes a slight rocking to spill. Do the same with rear but that one can be a tad higher but only to the point of just about trickling out. Now go on to the 4 corner idle screws with a vacuum gauge hooked up to full vacuum. Start car and block wheels, put car in gear and adjust at rear of carb to achieve the highest steadiest vacuum per corner. After that see if you have to lower idle by adjusting idle screw.
Ron


The car has a 5 speed, so it can't be in gear with the wheels blocked...


Ok than do all I suggested in Neutral.
Ron

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#2254872 - 02/16/17 10:49 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: lilcuda]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Originally Posted By lilcuda
Again, sounds like it was written by attorneys. All I know is that my former co-worker who has been building engines and tuning Holleys for 30+ years taught me to do it with the car running regardless of fuel pump type. He had a Corvette with a 540 hp 383 with a Holley carb that he daily drove for years. It fired on the first crank every time, almost like a fuel-injected car. I used his method and my 66 Barracuda would fire up with literally a tap of the key.

Didn't IMM build your engine? Maybe see if they can help you tune it better?


When I had the misfiring issue, IMM basically told me they won't work on an engine that's in a car and that I'd have to remove the engine, drop it off, and pick it up later. That's a 2 hour drive one way costing me a couple vacation days.

In response, I took the car to a local engine builder. They do engine builds, dynos, tuning, etc. The guy, when looking for my misfire problem, also tuned the car. They know their Mopars. They had multiple magazine articles of them building 440+6's and had three '68 Darts in there (one of which was a 9 second drag car).
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#2255792 - 02/18/17 10:06 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
So, I got to work on the Dart a little bit. First, I played with starting up the car. I had no luck with 1 pump or 2 pumps. The Dart started up the best when my foot was on the gas and I let off. The key was engaged the entire time when starting up. It did not start up if I backed out the key.

I also started Dynamatting the trunk and spent most of my afternoon climbing in and out of it today. I just placed a layer over where the electric fuel pump is mounted. I wanted to put some in the back seat area of the Dart; however, as I was going to remove the subwoofer material placed in lieu of the back seats I realized that it was glued down. So, I didn't really want to mess with that. While I was back there, I accidentally bumped into the subwoofer material back panel and realized, I've got a giant drum playing back here. Just tapping it would cause quite a bit of resonance and that could possibly be causing some of the noise when the car starts to drone. So, I went back into the trunk and added 2 layers of Dynamat behind there (1 layer of scraps). The panel is definitely a lot stiffer and tapping it doesn't create as much of a resonance. None of this did help with the electric fuel pump noise (as I expected it wouldn't). The entire floor really needs to be Dynamatted.

Unfortunately, when I finished all of this, it started to rain. So, we'll see if the driving experience is better tomorrow.


Attachments
Dynamat Back Panel.jpg


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#2256420 - 02/19/17 11:52 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Drove the Dart today. It started up first try when I tried pushing the pedal to the floor and backing off. Of course, I had to babysit the car. What should the idle be at start-up? One thing I noticed is that idle seems pretty low on start up (~700-900 RPM). I thought it was supposed to be around 1200-1500 RPM.

I drove it around and with the lower fuel pressure the car seems a lot happier. The added Dynamat didn't help that much, but did help some. It's not as bad as it was before, but is still pretty bad. The car still resonates, but it's not deafening, just annoyingly loud.

I did fill up the Dart before coming home. 10 MPG!!! A lot better than 6.7 mpg and not too bad for having an autocross event mixed in. One problem I had was that the car did not want to start up for a min or two following the fill up. It definitely wanted less gas. I still debate whether it's me or the car, but I think I'm going to purchase a choke regardless. They're cheap and can easily be removed if it doesn't work.
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#2256940 - 02/20/17 10:01 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 23914
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Drove the Dart today. It started up first try when I tried pushing the pedal to the floor and backing off. Of course, I had to babysit the car. What should the idle be at start-up? One thing I noticed is that idle seems pretty low on start up (~700-900 RPM). I thought it was supposed to be around 1200-1500 RPM.

I drove it around and with the lower fuel pressure the car seems a lot happier. The added Dynamat didn't help that much, but did help some. It's not as bad as it was before, but is still pretty bad. The car still resonates, but it's not deafening, just annoyingly loud.

I did fill up the Dart before coming home. 10 MPG!!! A lot better than 6.7 mpg and not too bad for having an autocross event mixed in. One problem I had was that the car did not want to start up for a min or two following the fill up. It definitely wanted less gas. I still debate whether it's me or the car, but I think I'm going to purchase a choke regardless. They're cheap and can easily be removed if it doesn't work.



Idle on startup can be pretty choppy if the engine is cold, but it should not take long to hold it's own idle. FWIW, my Warlock will idles around 600rpm in gear when warm, there's no reason for it to be >1,000rpm. I would target no more than 750rpm on the throttle stop [assuming you don't have a fast-idle w/o a choke]
_________________________
1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - Build Thread
1976 Dodge Warlock - "Her Truck" - 360/727 2wd
2016 BMW X1
2016 Subaru WRX

Build page -> https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi<-

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#2257014 - 02/21/17 01:17 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Originally Posted By GoodysGotaCuda
Idle on startup can be pretty choppy if the engine is cold, but it should not take long to hold it's own idle. FWIW, my Warlock will idles around 600rpm in gear when warm, there's no reason for it to be >1,000rpm. I would target no more than 750rpm on the throttle stop [assuming you don't have a fast-idle w/o a choke]


When the engine is warm, the idle is at about 800 RPM. My question was on a cold start up as my car idles down low. Every other car I have starts idle >1000 RPM and drops as it gets warmer. I'll have to see if I have the fast idle screw on the passenger side of the carb. Hopefully this weekend.
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#2257033 - 02/21/17 04:33 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 23914
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Originally Posted By GoodysGotaCuda
Idle on startup can be pretty choppy if the engine is cold, but it should not take long to hold it's own idle. FWIW, my Warlock will idles around 600rpm in gear when warm, there's no reason for it to be >1,000rpm. I would target no more than 750rpm on the throttle stop [assuming you don't have a fast-idle w/o a choke]


When the engine is warm, the idle is at about 800 RPM. My question was on a cold start up as my car idles down low. Every other car I have starts idle >1000 RPM and drops as it gets warmer. I'll have to see if I have the fast idle screw on the passenger side of the carb. Hopefully this weekend.


Anything fuel injected will either have an idle-air control valve [IAC] or an electronic throttle body to deliver more throttle/air input on cold starts and idle high. They also have a direct input of engine temp [ECT] to know when it needs to high-idle or not.

Carbs managed this through a fast-idle cam, however the carb has no reference of engine heat without the presence of a choke, therefore it is likely not on your carb if you do not have a choke on it. Factory operation would kick-on the fast-idle when the choke is closed and kick off upon throttle input and an open/opening choke.
_________________________
1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - Build Thread
1976 Dodge Warlock - "Her Truck" - 360/727 2wd
2016 BMW X1
2016 Subaru WRX

Build page -> https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi<-

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#2259640 - 02/25/17 11:55 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
I installed a manual choke today. Spent last night making a bracket for it. It definitely makes it easier on start up. I can get the idle higher on start up now. I didn't get it to completely warm up as I couldn't take it for a drive today.


Attachments
Manual Choke 2.jpg


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#2261996 - 03/01/17 11:02 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
lilcuda Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 303
Loc: Northern California
Once you get a chance to drive it, you'll have to get the hang of gradually opening the choke as it warms up so it doesn't load up with fuel.

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#2262054 - 03/02/17 01:12 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: lilcuda]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Originally Posted By lilcuda
Once you get a chance to drive it, you'll have to get the hang of gradually opening the choke as it warms up so it doesn't load up with fuel.


Of course.
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#2263009 - 03/03/17 09:43 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Got to drive the Dart today. It took awhile to figure out start up again. So, it seems it needs the choke all the way open on start up and then once the engine starts, the choke needs to be reduced immediately for the car to idle happy. The car still doesn't like to move unless water temp is at 150F, but what's nice about the manual choke is that it's warming up much faster now. When starting the car while it's warm, it likes a little bit of choke.

That being said, I've been working on function so much lately, I decided to do something cosmetic. So, I added a front spoiler. I have less than $50 into that. I don't think it looks too bad. I doubt it will do anything functionally.


Attachments
Front Spoiler 1.jpg

Front Spoiler 2.jpg


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#2264409 - 03/06/17 02:42 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
jpilone Offline
master

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Boca Raton, Florida
Looking good!
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#2264720 - 03/07/17 12:12 AM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: jpilone]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
Originally Posted By jpilone
Looking good!


Thanks! up
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#2280589 - 04/01/17 08:47 PM Re: MuuMuu's 68 Dart... It's a Learning Process... [Re: MuuMuu101]
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 12101
Loc: Covina, Ca
So, I invited a friend to go autocrossing with me today. He has a '67 Dart that was his first car and has wanted to ride in it. He met at my house in his '06 WRX and we cruised on down to Autoclub Speedway for the NMCA Autocross. The car drove nicely on the freeway.

My first set of autocross runs were not great whatsoever. The course was turns left and right and I couldn't really balance the car too well. Too much power, not enough grip, and in desperate need of a much more experienced driver. Let's just say, I destroyed some cones... and then some. I was smoothest when I barely tapped the throttle, but was very slow. But even then, the lightest throttle input can make the car pretty squirly. Average runs were approximately in the 38 second range and my best for the day was about 43 seconds.

Well, after my first set of runs, I did a once over for the car. My friend who was passenger said he heard rubbing throughout the run. I was too focused on driving to pay attention. I noticed a scrape on my front spoiler and when I tried to rub it off, the spoiler started moving a lot. I took a look under the car and the spoiler was barely being held on in 2 out of 4 locations. So, I removed that and tossed it with a good chuckle. Then we took a look at my tires. Now, the outside of my tires have been previously scraped (as seen in the photos) because when I first put the wheels on, the fenders weren't (partially) rolled and I still had a support bracket in place when I put the car together before taking it to Hotchkis. So, I didn't think much of it. When I took a look at them today, there were little rubber hairs peeling off of the side of the tire meaning there inner fender lip or GT trim studs are still scraping into the tires. There was a pretty gnarly gash (as seen in the bottom-ish part of the photo) that didn't make me too happy/confident. When the shop did the car, they couldn't roll the fenders completely due to the GT trim.

So, my friend and I cleaned the tires up and decided to do the next set of runs before we decided to bail out early (I would have got 3-4 sets of 3 runs). The second set felt better. We recorded it with a cell phone. I was still having problems hearing the rub. I'd hear it here and there, but a new problem arose during my second run. The Dart was backfiring like crazy with an occasional banging noise. I told my friend to get out of the car and check everything. He looked under the car and in the engine compartment real quick and didn't really notice anything. We decide to do one more run to see if we can recreate the problem and this time the misfire was a lot worse. After the run we drove down the strip and we were getting this misfire at low RPM's/speed but it would slowly go away at higher RPM's/speed. We park the car and do another once over. As I was reving the car in Neutral, my friend notices one of the bolts on the header flange rotating in position... Lovely. We start jacking the car up to tighten all of the nuts and as I get under the car, they're all missing. Yep, the nuts fell off. So, I tightened the 1 (out of 3) nuts that stayed on as best as I could and we drove back home. No misfiring whatsoever and the car was a pleasant drive. We figured that the exhaust was getting into the intake causing the misfiring to happen.

So, tonight I've got to stop by Home Depot to collect some hardware and fix this car as best as I can before Big Willow on Thursday. The plan is to install new hardware and locking washers on the exhaust flange, find where the wheel is rubbing and attempt to cut the inner fender lip, and remove the GT trim (just for racing... will be installed before Friday). I don't think I'll be able to get new front tires by then; however, I'll just limit my runs on Thursday if necessary.

I did this event to shakedown the car before Big Willow. I'd rather something go wrong at sub-60 mph than 100+ mph.


Attachments
NMCA Autocross 4-1-17.jpg

Broken Splitter 1.jpg

Broken Splitter 2.jpg

Gashed Tires.jpg


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