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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234465
05/16/12 04:53 PM
05/16/12 04:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,793
Castlegar, BC, Canada
That AMC Guy
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,793
Castlegar, BC, Canada
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I can only assume it's like putting a V8 in the Hornet/Gremlin series. It will eventually go in, but it's a tight fit!
Bloody Mary, Full of Vodka, Blessed art thou among cocktails....
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: maximum entropy]
#1234467
05/16/12 05:00 PM
05/16/12 05:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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How do you plan on making the B body headers fit ?
I am truckless..
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234468
05/16/12 05:05 PM
05/16/12 05:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228
Colleyville
3hundred
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228
Colleyville
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As a C body guy, I shouldn't tell you this, but you need a C body pan. Milodon used to make a nice deep pan that would work, don't know about anything aftermarket currently.  Robert
'68 Fury Convertible
'69 300 Convertible
'15 Durango 5.7 Hemi
'16 300 S Hemi
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: 340SHORTY]
#1234469
05/16/12 05:11 PM
05/16/12 05:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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I'd pull all steering linkage but leave the box in. I'd test fit from underneath without the motor plate (and K frame). I have no idea where you got a front sump. Trucks use rear sump, cars use mid sump. I'd also be prepared for clutch linkage issues and have a mini starter already fitted to the engine before install. Take a look at bigblockdart.com for more info. I don't know if a BB/scattershield/4 speed and headers will require very specific parts, but they would know the best combos. I'd also have a grinder, torch and big hammer close by!
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: 3hundred]
#1234470
05/16/12 05:11 PM
05/16/12 05:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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OP
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Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
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Last time I did this (383 in a '76 Valiant) I used a Moroso 7-qt pan... don't remember the part number though. It seems I actually do have a so-called "center sump" pan (the $80 Chinese ones that 440source and ebayers sell). But it's not actually dead center, which would have cleared the k-frame. Will look for C-body deep pans, thanks for the tip. Re: B-body headers, check the BBD tech pages . In fact this is the same set that was used in the pics (I bought them from Darrin a while back).
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234472
05/16/12 05:27 PM
05/16/12 05:27 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
..... front motor plate.....
my deep oil pan won't clear the K-member .... I need a center-sump pan. Oh well, it's just MORE money and hassle :P
Now I know why I haven't tried a B-block A-body in nearly 30 years... but this IS fun, isn't it? 
I thought that one of the advantages of using a motor plate is to eliminate the K member/engine attachment issue? The factory k member& engine mounts, as well as the trans mount are responsible for the fore/aft location of the engine and trans. When you deviate from stock, these kinds of fitment issues are sure to happen.
I've found that a majority of car applications require a mid sump oil pan when using the stock k member.
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1234473
05/16/12 05:42 PM
05/16/12 05:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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West Plains, MO
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Thanks, but as I posted above, it's actually a center sump pan. Even so, the sump is too far forward. Also, my engine will sit in the stock position (since I'm using the original trans mount, it has to). The front plate is for header clearance, not to relocate my engine... This may be a stupid question, but is it possible that I put the pan on backwards? Or do they only go on one way... 
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234474
05/16/12 05:46 PM
05/16/12 05:46 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
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Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
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Quote:
Thanks, but as I posted above, it's actually a center sump pan. Even so, the sump is too far forward.
Also, my engine will sit in the stock position (since I'm using the original trans mount, it has to). The front plate is for header clearance, not to relocate my engine...
This may be a stupid question, but is it possible that I put the pan on backwards? Or do they only go on one way...
It only goes on one way,....
I use a Milodon, but you still need to make a notch for steering linkage clearance. TTI headers should work fine.
MB
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: mopar_man]
#1234477
05/16/12 06:00 PM
05/16/12 06:00 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
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Quote:
I have done the A body RB block change about 8-9 times . used a 400 base pan with center sump . i also cut off some of the lip on the k member and then mig welded it. I also bent back the lip on fire wall/floor pan to give transmission a bit more clearance. Always went with Hp manifolds as I hate headers. Make sure engine is set as low as possible because you could have some clearance issues with carb /breather / hood. may have to use shorter spacer on fan depending what rad you have. Good Luck . 
Thanks for the hints. The last two times I did this swap, I did not have to cut or modify the k-member (or the pan either)... I wish I could remember which Moroso pan I used!
The stock pan even with a mild 383 would lose oil pressure on a vigorous launch, so I definitely want a 7-qt pan for the 451...
I have already hammered the lip in the tunnel flat, otherwise it wouldn't clear the scattershield 
Planning on electric fan, and it's still going to be tight, but I have to get the beast under the hood first 
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: jlatessa]
#1234481
05/16/12 07:12 PM
05/16/12 07:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Quote:
Try the engine without the trans, it looks like maybe if the engine is more level you might have a better chance.
Joe
I agree, and you want to have the wiring for that starter on and tight to A. check for clearance. B. So you do not have to install after the headers are on.
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: jlatessa]
#1234482
05/16/12 07:30 PM
05/16/12 07:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
OP
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
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Quote:
Try the engine without the trans, it looks like maybe if the engine is more level you might have a better chance.
Scattershield is up against the tunnel too... no way unless I removed it, and then how would I get it reconnected. I think I just need a different style pan. I'm going to measure the distance from the front rail to the front of the sump and see if another pan has the required couple of inches.
Here's another view - that sump just looks awfully far forwards:
Thanks for the wiring hints. This is just a "trial fit" so I can make the motor plate to frame rail brackets. Once it goes in for hopefully the final time with the headers alongside, I'll have the starter wired up
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: RodStRace]
#1234483
05/16/12 07:31 PM
05/16/12 07:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,518
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,518
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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Done it dozens of times and you CANNOT put the engine and trans in at the same time with a deep pan! You must put the engine in first, then put the bellhousing on, then the trans, there is NO OTHER WAY to do it! The Lakewood bellhousing is part of the issue too, I quit using them in A-Body's 30 years ago! Also, B-Body headers will not fit, unless you have a flame hammer handy. You should have asked a few questions here before trying that combination. 
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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