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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: Rhinodart]
#1234485
05/16/12 07:45 PM
05/16/12 07:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
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Maybe it can't be done with the Lakewood due to its larger diameter... but I have put three B and RB engines (with deep pans on all of them) in A-bodies and don't remember having to do it without the trans on any of them. On the other hand, that WAS in the '80's...  I'll do it in pieces if I have to, though. I thought this was the "standard" Chinese deep pan, but maybe not. What do you think of the sump position in the pics? Did you see the link I posted earlier to BBD showing these headers (the very same set) in a Dart with B engine, manual steering, no column shift (exactly my combo)? http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/BBody.shtmlHedman 78030 B-body headers are a well-known economy header for A-bodies with the above setup. I have already applied a flame wrench and ball-peen adjuster (again, not very much needed) so they bolt up to the engine/trans. They were "pre-dinged" for clearance by the previous owner in the few small spots required, but I'm prepared to tap them a couple more times if needed... -Charles PS I want to keep my right foot in the event of a clutch/flywheel explosion, hence the scattershield... they are rare, but sometimes devastating when they do happen.
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: Dodgeguy101]
#1234487
05/16/12 09:58 PM
05/16/12 09:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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master
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Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
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Quote:
Well, it won't go in because you have the wrong pan. You need the center sump.
Yep, even I have figured that out by now  I just measured my Chinese oil pan... it's only 5" from the front rail edge to the sump! No wonder I couldn't get the engine in... it's more like a front-sump pan. I didn't get it from 440source, but from an ebay store I can't recall. Shoulda known better...
My pan is also a long 11-12" from the rear edge to the sump and there's lots of clearance to the center link (the Moroso 20760, for which I can find dimensions, is 8" there). it doesn't show the front dimension, but the pics of both the Milodon and the Moroso are obviously quite a bit longer in front than 5"... a guy on BBD measured his and that dimension is 7.5. So that will buy me 2.5" which will probably be enough 
Quote:
Got mine from Source one. Great pan for the price.
Who're they? which part number?
I can get the Milodon 30730 or the Moroso for about the same $260 with pick-up from Summit.
Quote:
I put mine in and out by myself all the time with a deep center pan. You don't have to take anything off of the engine compartment. Mine is a rb with an auto. All I had to do was bend the lip above the auto trans to make it fit.
Yep, I already hammered that lip flat with an 8-lb sledge and "finished" the job with a 4-lb hammer 
Once I get the proper pan, I will pull the column again and see if that gives me enough room to get the Hedmans in, and if not I guess I'll drop the K-frame. I am not an octopus (and have no helpers) so it will be next to impossible to slide the headers into place while also dropping the engine!
Thanks for the variety of approaches... I'll let you know how it comes out. Or in. 
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234488
05/16/12 10:07 PM
05/16/12 10:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
Dodgeguy101
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Well, it won't go in because you have the wrong pan. You need the center sump.
Yep, even I have figured that out by now I just measured my Chinese oil pan... it's only 5" from the front rail edge to the sump! No wonder I couldn't get the engine in... it's more like a front-sump pan. I didn't get it from 440source, but from an ebay store I can't recall. Shoulda known better...
My pan is also a long 11-12" from the rear edge to the sump and there's lots of clearance to the center link (the Moroso 20760, for which I can find dimensions, is 8" there). it doesn't show the front dimension, but the pics of both the Milodon and the Moroso are obviously quite a bit longer in front than 5"... a guy on BBD measured his and that dimension is 7.5. So that will buy me 2.5" which will probably be enough
Quote:
Got mine from Source one. Great pan for the price.
Who're they? which part number?
I can get the Milodon 30730 or the Moroso for about the same $260 with pick-up from Summit.
Quote:
I put mine in and out by myself all the time with a deep center pan. You don't have to take anything off of the engine compartment. Mine is a rb with an auto. All I had to do was bend the lip above the auto trans to make it fit.
Yep, I already hammered that lip flat with an 8-lb sledge and "finished" the job with a 4-lb hammer
Once I get the proper pan, I will pull the column again and see if that gives me enough room to get the Hedmans in, and if not I guess I'll drop the K-frame. I am not an octopus (and have no helpers) so it will be next to impossible to slide the headers into place while also dropping the engine!
Thanks for the variety of approaches... I'll let you know how it comes out. Or in.
Stick with it, it is worth the trouble. 
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234489
05/16/12 10:12 PM
05/16/12 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,517
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,517
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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Maybe it can't be done with the Lakewood due to its larger diameter... but I have put three B and RB engines (with deep pans on all of them) in A-bodies and don't remember having to do it without the trans on any of them. On the other hand, that WAS in the '80's... I'll do it in pieces if I have to, though. I use an Ansen bellhousing specifically designed for a big block A-Body, though they are hard to find. I thought this was the "standard" Chinese deep pan, but maybe not. What do you think of the sump position in the pics? Definitely need a center sump pan, even with that pan I have never been able to put the engine/trans in together. Did you see the link I posted earlier to BBD showing these headers (the very same set) in a Dart with B engine, manual steering, no column shift (exactly my combo)? http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/BBody.shtmlHedman 78030 B-body headers are a well-known economy header for A-bodies with the above setup. Ah yes, the Hedman headers, I did that back in 1995 and got them to work, so as long as they have already been hammered they might fit...  I have already applied a flame wrench and ball-peen adjuster (again, not very much needed) so they bolt up to the engine/trans. They were "pre-dinged" for clearance by the previous owner in the few small spots required, but I'm prepared to tap them a couple more times if needed... -Charles PS I want to keep my right foot in the event of a clutch/flywheel explosion, hence the scattershield... they are rare, but sometimes devastating when they do happen. Wear lead boots like I do... 
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234490
05/16/12 10:19 PM
05/16/12 10:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
Dodgeguy101
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Well, it won't go in because you have the wrong pan. You need the center sump.
Yep, even I have figured that out by now I just measured my Chinese oil pan... it's only 5" from the front rail edge to the sump! No wonder I couldn't get the engine in... it's more like a front-sump pan. I didn't get it from 440source, but from an ebay store I can't recall. Shoulda known better...
My pan is also a long 11-12" from the rear edge to the sump and there's lots of clearance to the center link (the Moroso 20760, for which I can find dimensions, is 8" there). it doesn't show the front dimension, but the pics of both the Milodon and the Moroso are obviously quite a bit longer in front than 5"... a guy on BBD measured his and that dimension is 7.5. So that will buy me 2.5" which will probably be enough
Quote:
Got mine from Source one. Great pan for the price.
Who're they? which part number?
I can get the Milodon 30730 or the Moroso for about the same $260 with pick-up from Summit.
Quote:
I put mine in and out by myself all the time with a deep center pan. You don't have to take anything off of the engine compartment. Mine is a rb with an auto. All I had to do was bend the lip above the auto trans to make it fit.
Yep, I already hammered that lip flat with an 8-lb sledge and "finished" the job with a 4-lb hammer
Once I get the proper pan, I will pull the column again and see if that gives me enough room to get the Hedmans in, and if not I guess I'll drop the K-frame. I am not an octopus (and have no helpers) so it will be next to impossible to slide the headers into place while also dropping the engine!
Thanks for the variety of approaches... I'll let you know how it comes out. Or in.
Sorry, 440 source, I don't remember the part number, but when I called to check to see if it would fit, whoever answered the phone, said they didn't say it would fit, but from the pics, it was a center sump. Yes it fit fine, just didn't like their tone I guess. Why sell a pan if you don't know what it fits? Anyway, it does the job for 80 or so, whatever it was. If I had to do it over, would probbly get the Milodon that has the side tanks built on it for more ground clearance.
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: Dodgeguy101]
#1234491
05/16/12 11:01 PM
05/16/12 11:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
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Quote:
Sorry, 440 source, I don't remember the part number, but when I called to check to see if it would fit, whoever answered the phone, said they didn't say it would fit, but from the pics, it was a center sump. Yes it fit fine, just didn't like their tone I guess. Why sell a pan if you don't know what it fits? Anyway, it does the job for 80 or so, whatever it was. If I had to do it over, would probbly get the Milodon that has the side tanks built on it for more ground clearance.
Thanks. I looked at the 440source one and it looks a lot like the one I have (too close to the front). So I pried open my wallet and ordered a Milodon 30930 that has side "kickouts" and the matching pickup from Summit. There's another Milodon with actual side tanks but it's around $400 
Even $276 ("free" shipping, $12.95 "Handling") is a lot of money for a plain old wet-sump pan, but paying for one is not half as aggravating as not being able to get the engine in the @#$% car
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: DrCharles]
#1234492
05/16/12 11:08 PM
05/16/12 11:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
Dodgeguy101
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, 440 source, I don't remember the part number, but when I called to check to see if it would fit, whoever answered the phone, said they didn't say it would fit, but from the pics, it was a center sump. Yes it fit fine, just didn't like their tone I guess. Why sell a pan if you don't know what it fits? Anyway, it does the job for 80 or so, whatever it was. If I had to do it over, would probbly get the Milodon that has the side tanks built on it for more ground clearance.
Thanks. I looked at the 440source one and it looks a lot like the one I have (too close to the front). So I pried open my wallet and ordered a Milodon 30930 that has side "kickouts" and the matching pickup from Summit. There's another Milodon with actual side tanks but it's around $400
Even $276 ("free" shipping, $12.95 "Handling") is a lot of money for a plain old wet-sump pan, but paying for one is not half as aggravating as not being able to get the engine in the @#$% car
I looked on the site, the number is 121-1002. That one will fit. Picture is a little off, but it fits fine.
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: 65rbdodge]
#1234500
05/17/12 10:03 PM
05/17/12 10:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,517
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,517
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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Quote:
in my 71 dart w/400 i have hedman b-body headers, #187 oil pan, 727, modified(motor mounts) 73+sb k-frame. it all fit, headers needed a few dings, but nothing major. HEDMAN B-BODY HEADERS DO FIT!
I first used the Hedman headers in the early 90's. They are 1-3/4 tubes and really too small for the 440, but perfect for a 383/400 unless stroked. Of course they are much better than ANY factory exhaust manifolds. 
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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Re: Too tight a fit... 451 A-body rant
[Re: sickhemi]
#1234501
05/17/12 10:09 PM
05/17/12 10:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
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Quote:
i put my 440 inmt dart without the blowshield istalled with the milodon 7qt pan. the front right corner of the pan was a little tuff to get by the k-frame a notch would have helped. had to put the blowshield on after the engine was in place and that sucked 
My Milodon pan is supposed to be delivered tomorrow. 
Rhinodart also says it can't be done with a scattershield and deep pan. I may give it a quick try just to learn for myself the hard way
I am seriously considering dropping the K-frame... at this stage the car is a "roller" with no front shocks or brake lines, so I'd only have to pull the t-bars, tubular upper control arms, disconnect the steering U-joint, and then the four big bolts!
I'm using a motor plate anyway, so the engine can sit quietly on the frame rails while I put the headers in from underneath and then lift the K-frame straight up into place, without having to "steer" the engine around the Milodon pan.
I would much rather do this than try and put the scattershield back on with the engine in the car... indeed!
Any thoughts on this approach, or problems I haven't thought of yet? 
thanks
Charles
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