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Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: cogen80] #1228645
05/07/12 05:45 PM
05/07/12 05:45 PM
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Long Island, NY USA
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BergmanAutoCraft Offline
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Thats correct.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: BergmanAutoCraft] #1228646
05/07/12 05:58 PM
05/07/12 05:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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I'll add that I also agree that the means RMS used to eliminate bump steer seemed odd. Rick referred to it as a "cantilevered" design.
In smoothe surfaces, the design probably works fine. Imagine taking it on the neglected roads that we drive on every day. The dips, cracks, ruts and potholes would certainly take a toll.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Kern Dog] #1228647
05/07/12 06:17 PM
05/07/12 06:17 PM
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Berlin, N.J.
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abodyjoe Offline
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Quote:

I'll add that I also agree that the means RMS used to eliminate bump steer seemed odd. Rick referred to it as a "cantilevered" design.
In smoothe surfaces, the design probably works fine. Imagine taking it on the neglected roads that we drive on every day. The dips, cracks, ruts and potholes would certainly take a toll.




my alter-k has been in my dart since july of 2006. its all crappy pot hole (should see my road. wish they would fix the damn thing soon) dip all over south jersey/pa roads driven. system has held up fine. all original heim joints and all. i grease everything every spring while i'm checking the car over for the summer season. if it wasn't a 80 mile round trip for work or gas was $1 a gallon again i would daily drive the car. no doubts in my mind that the system would hold up to daily abuse. only issue i have is that the paint i used on it when it was new is falling the hell off. that pisses me off..


It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

www.MoparMisfits.com
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: abodyjoe] #1228648
05/07/12 07:40 PM
05/07/12 07:40 PM
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Posts: 6,653
Near Reading PA USA
pinkduster Offline
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I guess I'm going to have to get a copy of this magazine and read it for myself. Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see the need for the Alterkation set up. First of all, I'm NOT a cornering or handling guy at all, so lets get that out of the way (I run skinnies on the front and drag tires on the back). I do like to drag race a couple of times a year though, so how would the Alterkation benefit me? I suppose it would remove some weight from the car (how much), but if it does in fact move weight more forward in the car, wouldn't that be a BAD thing for drag racing? If you are a drag racer, how has changing to the Alterkation improved your ET.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: pinkduster] #1228649
05/07/12 09:08 PM
05/07/12 09:08 PM
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Posts: 115
Manteca, CA
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Manteca, CA
I read the article...... My overall impression is that the author thinks the stock design and set up works perfect so why mess with it....anything different than using the stock Mopar design is a step in the wrong direction

When it comes to "out of the box" suspension designs that handle well..... Mopar doesn't top the list..... Yes you can make it better with aftermarket stuff, but the overall design is very outdated

The RMS stuff isn't perfect but any stretch but to me the overall design is better than stock Mopar stuff

Some guys just don't ever want to evolve from the stock stuff

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: DRJDVM] #1228650
05/07/12 09:16 PM
05/07/12 09:16 PM
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Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
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Mopar (60s-ish torsion bar) may not be top of the heap stuff now, but at the time was the best starting point for a handling build for a domestic automaker. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement or that some of the aftermarket offerings aren't better in some respects.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228651
05/07/12 09:38 PM
05/07/12 09:38 PM
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Posts: 43,458
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart Offline
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I have driven several cars with the Alter-K and the Mr. Norms design plus a few other of the designs, and all were based off the Alter-K except the Magnum Force. I have been over 150 MPH and through the twisties a few times at speed and my opinion is the Alter-K is the best. Yes there is some bump steer with some of the designs, but the Alter-K seems to have the least IMHO. The main difference between stock k-frames and Alter-K types are the removal of the torsion bars and addition of coil overs, less weight, better brakes, plus rack and pinion steering. I do agree that the unibody was not designed for the loads on the shock towers that the coil overs have and to be honest tying the frames and gusseting the shock towers should be done if the car is to be street driven alot. Son't forget the infinite adjustability of the new suspensions to your taste, while the stock suspensions are very limited.


The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

A-Body's RULE!
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228652
05/07/12 09:39 PM
05/07/12 09:39 PM
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colorado
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savoy64 Offline
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alot of trans am races were won by those antiquated torsion bars--in fact if dodge and plymouth had been counted as a team---they would have won each years series over gm and ford(mercury)---bob

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: savoy64] #1228653
05/07/12 10:04 PM
05/07/12 10:04 PM

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I totally agree with Rick on all the points he made.

However...

Rick is all about making things "bomb proof" and I can see where the RMS may have it's shortcoming in an application that sees thousands of street miles in all conditions.

The factory Mopar design is very hard to improve upon when you think about it in that application.

If you're after weight reduction and something that free's up space for headers in a drag-type application then the RMS K is your ticket.

I thought he was very fair in his analogy.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: savoy64] #1228654
05/07/12 10:25 PM
05/07/12 10:25 PM
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Posts: 11,678
W. Kentucky
justinp61 Offline
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I have looked at the Alterk kit for my street/strip Dart. It's a very nice set up for sure, but honestly I think my money is better spent elsewhere. As it's set up now it runs high 1.30 60' foot range. I run skinnies up front with Cal-Tracs and monos on the rear so it's set up more to go in a straight line. That being said it doesn't handle bad and is very predictable in the curves.

The only front end upgrades I'm looking at now is a set of adjustable upper control arms with heim ends and adjustable strut rods. The car already has Strange disk on the front, Wilwoods on the rear and will stop on a dime.

Nice front end set up, but not worth the $$$ to me. I like to see more return for the investment on the parts I buy. .

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? #1228655
05/07/12 10:42 PM
05/07/12 10:42 PM
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Posts: 236
Maryland
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cudaboone Offline OP
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Did not mean to start a firestorm. I just feel that if you knock something, you should have some facts to back up any and all of your statements. It's no different that any other scientific or professional statement. You have to have data to back them up good or bad. Expecially when it is someone's business/livelyhood.
Hated might have been a little harsh, but he did seem to zero in on alterkation. If i do get one, it looks like a will have to come up with a way to beef up the frame. It looks enticing when you think of the room you will gain.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: justinp61] #1228656
05/07/12 10:43 PM
05/07/12 10:43 PM
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Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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I too think Rick explained it very clearly. I have to agree with him and I'd also have to say his thought process is clearly in today's world.

Sheldon

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Rhinodart] #1228657
05/07/12 10:47 PM
05/07/12 10:47 PM
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Fresno, CA
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No need to beef up the shock towers with the AlterK. The upper shock/spring bracket is part of the AlterK. You don't use the original shock tower, as I understand it.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: cudaboone] #1228658
05/07/12 10:50 PM
05/07/12 10:50 PM
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Berlin, N.J.
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abodyjoe Offline
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Quote:

Did not mean to start a firestorm. I just feel that if you knock something, you should have some facts to back up any and all of your statements. It's no different that any other scientific or professional statement. You have to have data to back them up good or bad. Expecially when it is someone's business/livelyhood.
Hated might have been a little harsh, but he did seem to zero in on alterkation. If i do get one, it looks like a will have to come up with a way to beef up the frame. It looks enticing when you think of the room you will gain.






its a lot more enticing if you have ever driven a car with one. i'm working on selling a few thing and saving so i can buy a second one to install in jamies dart.


It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

www.MoparMisfits.com
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: RUNCHARGER] #1228659
05/07/12 10:53 PM
05/07/12 10:53 PM
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Posts: 20,149
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
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If you really take a look at how a stock Mopar front suspension works you'd realize what a piece of crap it is. The upper A-arm moves in so many different directions there is no way it can not bump steer. Watch any stock suspension Mopar (especially an A body) come down from a wheelstand at the drag strip. The front wheel moves more directions than Shakira's azz.

You think just because you don't wheelstand you've got nothing to worry about? That's just an example of what the geometry looks like going through it's travel. Yours will do the same thing hitting bumps on the highway at speed.

Will it affect most people? No, but an AlterK-Tion addresses the real issues for those who want a suspension that works properly.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: slantzilla] #1228660
05/08/12 12:03 AM
05/08/12 12:03 AM
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Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я Offline
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Its a TRAP!
Quote:

If you really take a look at how a stock Mopar front suspension works you'd realize what a piece of crap it is.



On F/J bodies etc.


When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: DARTH V8Я] #1228661
05/08/12 12:11 AM
05/08/12 12:11 AM
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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Slant, while I don't have the heavy background to give either design the nod, I will say that your example is a simplification. By that measure, a straight axle is great!

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: RodStRace] #1228662
05/08/12 12:27 AM
05/08/12 12:27 AM

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Quote:

Slant, while I don't have the heavy background to give either design the nod, I will say that your example is a simplification. By that measure, a straight axle is great!





..if you're into Conestoga's.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: RodStRace] #1228663
05/08/12 12:28 AM
05/08/12 12:28 AM
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lewiston, ID
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cornucopia Offline
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I'm in Richard E's corner on this one.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: RodStRace] #1228664
05/08/12 12:40 AM
05/08/12 12:40 AM
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Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Bend,OR USA
I have read many car articles in many magazines over my life racing cars, I have seen outright lies in print put in by the writer to increase sells. My question on most magazine scribes and their ability to be a authority is what is there background, a degree in writing or are they car racers,Engineers, fabricators or racers that got a job at a magazine writing technical articles Probally there educated in English, publishing and writing, even then I wonder about some of thier wording When I see questions like this I wonder who the writer is and what is his expertise to be a authority on the subject he is writing about You know the old adage, don't beleive anything you hear or read and only half of what you actually see When it comes to money, people lie and cheat


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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