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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: RUNCHARGER] #1228805
05/14/12 10:05 PM
05/14/12 10:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
6
68Plymouths Offline
member
68Plymouths  Offline
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6

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
Quote:

Wow! That does look like junk. It just shows that those Chrysler Engineers years in school was put to good use not designing something like that.

Sheldon




Really? From your vast technical and engineering knowledge, as well as your many years of hands on suspension fabrication experience, I am sure you will point out any flaws that I have made in the steering and suspension geometry. Btw, a very similar design happens to be on many super late model race cars (specxifically Rayburn and GRT). They seem to be able to take corners at around 130mph on a 1/2 mile track. Like to see a stock Mope front-end do that...

Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: 68Plymouths] #1228806
05/14/12 10:20 PM
05/14/12 10:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976
Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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RUNCHARGER Offline
I Live Here
RUNCHARGER  Offline
I Live Here
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976
Chilliwack B.C. Canada
Do you know anything about gusseting, over angling joints, the effects of leveridging? Hope you don't drive that on a public highway.

Sheldon

Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: RUNCHARGER] #1228807
05/14/12 11:54 PM
05/14/12 11:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,149
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
Too Many Posts
slantzilla  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,149
Park Forest, IL
Quote:

Do you know anything about gusseting, over angling joints, the effects of leveridging? Hope you don't drive that on a public highway.

Sheldon




I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes, he does know about all that.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: RUNCHARGER] #1228808
05/15/12 09:26 AM
05/15/12 09:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
6
68Plymouths Offline
member
68Plymouths  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
Quote:

Do you know anything about gusseting, over angling joints, the effects of leveridging? Hope you don't drive that on a public highway.

Sheldon




I don't know about leveridging. Never even heard of it. Is that a new technical term?

Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228809
05/15/12 10:51 AM
05/15/12 10:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,385
Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
master
TC@HP2  Offline
master
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,385
Pikes Peak Country
Quote:

It looks like the control arm is on the wrong side of the car. The angle of the top of the ball joint should be level with the floor with the control arm attached to the factory mounts.


Quote:

First time I've seen the pivot points on a control arm not be in a straight line with each other.




Its an optical illusion because of the camera angle in the shot. Actually, the upper arm pivots are in plane, they are just level instead of angled. This is anti-dive and it has been removed in this demonstration.

This appears to be a collection of parts from different vendors to address differing issues. There are Magnumforce double adjustable uppers mounting in the a plane similar to the Hotchkis design using a QA1 lower with a strut rod and the t-bar has been replaced by a coil over.

Once you start dropping the ride height of the car, the stock geometry starts to change. Not radically at first, but the lower you go, the more it changes. There becomes a point where you get low enough you need to revise some of the angles to restore its operation through its arcs. That's what we have here. Can't say if the builder figured it out on his own, had some help, ran it through a program or what. I can say that based on my experience, there is logic behind most of what is happening here. The camber curve change is a bit more nebulus as Mopar have decent camber gain already and unless you're getting a lot of body roll, you typically don't need to change it radically. Will it improve the handling, yes. Will it last 250,000 miles, I have no idea. But then again, these cars are not daily driver knocking down 20k miles a year anymore and they usually get regular inspection now that they didn't enjoy earlier in their lives. I wouldn't be as worried about the geometry of it all so much as having all the weight on that coil over going in to the inner fender. If it is properly supported on the engine side, then it may last.

Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: TC@HP2] #1228810
05/15/12 11:22 AM
05/15/12 11:22 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 480
Texas
R
racer_amx Offline
mopar
racer_amx  Offline
mopar
R

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 480
Texas







Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: TC@HP2] #1228811
05/15/12 01:04 PM
05/15/12 01:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
6
68Plymouths Offline
member
68Plymouths  Offline
member
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
The only parts not hand crafted by me are the heim joints, the coil over assemby and the spindle assembly. Everything else was made in my shop, on my tools, by me. I did all the calculations myself. I do have some experience with racing suspension systems. However, much of what I know can be found in Steve Smith's book "Advanced Racecar Suspension Development." Available for like $25. And all my practical experience has been building and driving dirt modifieds. I have no doubt that it is plenty stout. As stout as a stamped factory piec? Maybe not, but I only put maybe a thousand miles on my car each year. ANd it's a shitload lighter! This is something that has been brewing in my head from the first time I took a stock Mope suspension apart.

Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228812
05/15/12 01:38 PM
05/15/12 01:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
Quote:

Quote:

It looks like the control arm is on the wrong side of the car. The angle of the top of the ball joint should be level with the floor with the control arm attached to the factory mounts.

Yeah.... This is MUCH better than stock!




First time I've seen the pivot points on a control arm not be in a straight line with each other. I don't know what kind of issue that might have, but it's different...




Hotchkis A-arm for B/E body has most of the anti-dive removed from them too. They said it was for caster change in bump that gave them bumpsteer. Makes sense.

I don't think the Hotchkis stuff is zero anti dive. But greatly reduced.


Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: DARTH V8Я] #1228813
05/15/12 09:36 PM
05/15/12 09:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,878
Willow Grove PA
71sat440 Offline
I Live Here
71sat440  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,878
Willow Grove PA
Quote:

So how to you guys feels about the leafsprings vs 3/4-link for handling? I was in a friends 71 Monte Carlo (stock sus) and that thing outhandled my 74 roadrunner (stock sus) something fierce!





Go drive any of the newer pre 2005 mustangs (except IRS cobras)

They all have triangulated 4 link rears.

They have their weaknesses like bushing bind in hard corners, bushing bind though out the up and down motion because the triangle end wants to kind of tighten up.

In a triangulated system your asking the arms to do two separate jobs.

Control side to side motion AND up and down motion.

Ideally you would want something like a pan hard bar to control side to side motion so the control arms only have to worry about up and down motion.

Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: 71sat440] #1228814
05/15/12 11:21 PM
05/15/12 11:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я Offline
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
DARTH V8Я  Offline
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
Yeah, like factory 3rd gen Camaro's. Pan hard bar along with the torque bar to the trans.. two lower control arms [no uppers]. Thats a great set up!


When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: DARTH V8Я] #1228815
05/16/12 03:41 PM
05/16/12 03:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 115
Manteca, CA
DRJDVM Offline
member
DRJDVM  Offline
member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 115
Manteca, CA
Frankenduster and Supercuda...... Wow.... Dont get you panties all wadded up.... They might get hooked on the stick up your..... Nevermind.... You aren't worth it......

Damn..... Take a different opinion and make it personal.... Totally uncalled for and unnecessary......

I am building a 70 cuda.... And cutting it up.....if you don't like it I don't care. I'm on this site to learn about mopars, enjoy the hobby, meet new people and get different opinions and until now EVERYONE has been great.... I've enjoyed the site alot...... Until the posts by frankenduster etc

No I don't post alot..... Big deal.... Alot of stuff on here is about stock stuff and that's not my thing.... So what?

And I'll put my camaro up against any POS car either of you have in your garage

This thread has totally run its course..... So I'm going to leave it alone before the Internet warriors out there that can't handle a different opinion ...... Or simply hate guys that have interests or drive other cars that aren't mopars.....get even more uptight and unleash more personal attacks.... Getting into a pissing match with some guys on the Internet isn't worth it...... Peace out......

Last edited by DRJDVM; 05/16/12 03:58 PM.
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: DRJDVM] #1228816
05/16/12 06:37 PM
05/16/12 06:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 18,880
-
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RSNOMO Offline
Moparts Torchbearer
RSNOMO  Offline
Moparts Torchbearer
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Posts: 18,880
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'And I'll put my camaro up against any POS car either of you have in your garage'

Impressive...

Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: RSNOMO] #1228817
05/16/12 07:09 PM
05/16/12 07:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 905
SD
Z
zrxkawboy Offline
super stock
zrxkawboy  Offline
super stock
Z

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 905
SD
Quote:

'And I'll put my camaro up against any POS car either of you have in your garage'

Impressive...




I, also, am quite impressed...


It's Swifty! Swifty, you toad sucker!
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: zrxkawboy] #1228818
05/16/12 07:47 PM
05/16/12 07:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
About to go away
Supercuda  Offline
About to go away

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Quote:

Quote:

'And I'll put my camaro up against any POS car either of you have in your garage'

Impressive...




I, also, am quite impressed...




As am I


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption [Re: Supercuda] #1228819
05/16/12 08:34 PM
05/16/12 08:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
You're as much of a piece of crap as I am!


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