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Troubles getting timing set on 360
#1227175
05/04/12 04:04 PM
05/04/12 04:04 PM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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So, many of you recommended that I set the initial (idle) timing on my 360 in order to better diagnose the rough idle problems I'm having... I tried doing that today, and seem to be either completely stupid, or having some other problems. I have a timing light that has a dial on it...
I hooked up the timing light to the #1 plug wire, as close to the boot as possible, and then get the car to idle (around 1000 rpm). disconnected and plugged the vacuum line that goes to the vac advance on the distributor. When I set the dial on the timing light to 16 (what I've been told to set my idle timing to), and rotate the distributor until the timing mark on the balancer line up at 0 on the water pump, the timing mark doesn't seem to be there on "every" flash of the timing gun... is there something else going on? Also, is this the proper way to set the initial timing where it needs to be?
Also, just to set my baseline, I make sure all my spark plugs (autolite AL65) were set to .034, and set each idle mixture screw on the carb (Edelbrock 1405) to 1.5 turns out.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227182
05/04/12 10:50 PM
05/04/12 10:50 PM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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So, I realized that the vacuum port on the back of the carb that was going to the power brake booster was not a 'solid' fitting, it was a brass fitting that was meant to be pressure fit on the inside.. it was 2 pieces.. the nipple part and the nut part that had the threads on it to screw into the carb body... and it was wobbly.. so it was clearly a source of vacuum leak. I went out and got a solid 1 piece brass fitting and took your advice, and plugged it off for the sake of the tuning process. I blocked off the vacuum port going to the distributor too. I am wondering if something else is going on ...because even when I move the timing to 18 degrees at idle, it barely wanted to idle at 900 rpm. Then, when I revved it up, it would go up to about 38 degrees advance.
when I hooked up the vacuum advance back to the distributor, the idle timing jumped up to about 38 at idle, and when revving, it went all the way up to about 55 degrees. How is that possible?
I freaking hate this crap. I'll take body and paint work over this any day. I shoulda just dropped a Mustang 5.0 in the Miata and been done!
Think I may put a posting up on Craigslist looking for someone who knows how to tune Mopar engines in the Sacramento area, and see if I can get someone local to do it for me.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: stumpy]
#1227184
05/04/12 11:22 PM
05/04/12 11:22 PM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Is the vacuum port you are using for the advance ported or full? Pvacuum is above the butterflys and full vacuum is below. You want ported for advance.
Yeah, it's ported vacuum.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227186
05/04/12 11:27 PM
05/04/12 11:27 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
indiana
mcmopars
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Quote:
So, I realized that the vacuum port on the back of the carb that was going to the power brake booster was not a 'solid' fitting, it was a brass fitting that was meant to be pressure fit on the inside.. it was 2 pieces.. the nipple part and the nut part that had the threads on it to screw into the carb body... and it was wobbly.. so it was clearly a source of vacuum leak. I went out and got a solid 1 piece brass fitting and took your advice, and plugged it off for the sake of the tuning process. I blocked off the vacuum port going to the distributor too. I am wondering if something else is going on ...because even when I move the timing to 18 degrees at idle, it barely wanted to idle at 900 rpm. Then, when I revved it up, it would go up to about 38 degrees advance.
when I hooked up the vacuum advance back to the distributor, the idle timing jumped up to about 38 at idle, and when revving, it went all the way up to about 55 degrees. How is that possible?
I freaking hate this crap. I'll take body and paint work over this any day. I shoulda just dropped a Mustang 5.0 in the Miata and been done!
Think I may put a posting up on Craigslist looking for someone who knows how to tune Mopar engines in the Sacramento area, and see if I can get someone local to do it for me.
a ford? whats up with that.this is a mopar site,sounds like basic troubleshooting to me,reguardless of brand. so you think just drop in a 5.0 and all your mech. issues are over.wow
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227188
05/05/12 12:13 AM
05/05/12 12:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Do you have this plate under the carb?  It sounds better. You're getting closer. If you turn the idle screws in does the idle quality change? It sounds like it's got a miss in it, might be the video itself. What's the line all the way across on the timing tape in your video?
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227191
05/05/12 12:25 AM
05/05/12 12:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
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you need the piece that is shown above to seal the deal...
that part comes with the performer intake from edelbrock for a reason..
Last edited by 70AARcuda; 05/05/12 12:27 AM.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227192
05/05/12 12:29 AM
05/05/12 12:29 AM
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RobX4406
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Quote:
No, I've got the carb bolted directly to the intake (with a gasket in between).. It's a Performer intake and a Performer carb, I was under the impression that I wouldn't need anything other than the gasket between them. It is getting better.. but it's still not right. This is exceptionally frustrating. I'm having a cocktail now.
That intake carb combo needs that plate. It's the hourglass shape question I asked earlier.
See instructions, bottom of page 3.
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/edl-2176.pdf
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#1227193
05/05/12 12:31 AM
05/05/12 12:31 AM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
you need the piece that is shown above to seal the deal...
that part comes with the performer intake from edelbrock for a reason..
That's what I get for buying the intake and carb "used" ... I'll see if I can get that part. I was using a 1" spacer to help reduce heat soak to the carb, but I got rid of it in an effort to reduce vacuum leaks.
Also, to the question about the line across the timing tape on the video.. i think that's just an anomaly with the frame rate of the video and frequency of the flash from the timing light.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227194
05/05/12 12:36 AM
05/05/12 12:36 AM
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RobX4406
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Those plates are about $7 at O'rielly's or autozone IIRC. They tend to get "lost"...  That 1" spacer may do the same, however, it introduces other potential issues. Get that plate #2732 and try again. Reset the carb idle mix screws to 1.5 turns out. If you get the plate on, the idle should increase a bunch because your leak should be gone.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227195
05/05/12 12:54 AM
05/05/12 12:54 AM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Those plates are about $7 at O'rielly's or autozone IIRC.
They tend to get "lost"...
That 1" spacer may do the same, however, it introduces other potential issues. Get that plate #2732 and try again.
Reset the carb idle mix screws to 1.5 turns out. If you get the plate on, the idle should increase a bunch because your leak should be gone.
Thanks man.... I'll give that a shot. Thanks for putting up with all my stupid questions and problems.. this is completely new to me. I'm not an "engine tuning" guy... I went to school for body/paint work
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227197
05/06/12 05:58 PM
05/06/12 05:58 PM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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OK.. so when my neighbor came over to help me the other day, he noticed that the rubber ring on the harmonic balancer was bulged a little bit in one spot.. he thinks the outer ring may have slipped a bit.. which would make trying to set the timing almost impossible. So today, I rotated the crank until the TDC mark lined up with the timing cover mark for '0'.. and pulled the #1 plug. I put a dowel in the plug hole, and slowly rotated the crank by hand to see if the TDC indicator on the balancer was "true" .. it seems off by about 5 degrees. So I put some timing tape on the balancer, at the "new" TDC mark. I also got that Edelbrock plate that was referenced above, and put that in between the carb and intake (with new gaskets). I also got a vacuum gauge to help me try to set my idle mixtures....
It seems like I should be able to get the engine to idle at around 800-900 rpms, right? I can't get it to idle (and stay running) at less than 1100 or close to 1200... there's gotta be something else going on.. I just have no $#@#$%@%^%$^"ing idea what.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227199
05/07/12 12:49 PM
05/07/12 12:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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I had one come loose and eat my timing cover. I caught it before any real damage occured. 
Last edited by Challenger 1; 05/07/12 01:57 PM.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227202
05/07/12 02:07 PM
05/07/12 02:07 PM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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JohnRR - it's a 360. As far as idle, it's hard to check the timing at anything less than 1100 or 1200 because it wants to die, so it requires constant throttle feathering to keep it going.. as far as I can tell, I've got it around 18-20 degrees advance at the "idle" speed of 900 or so.. but like I said, it's hard to say for sure, because it doesn't want to stay running at that low of an RPM.
I'll have to see about disconnecting the MSD.. I don't remember how it's all wired in now, and all the wiring is nice and bundled up,... could be a pain in the butt to figure out how to disconnect it .. but I'll give it a shot.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227203
05/07/12 03:33 PM
05/07/12 03:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Western Washington
Sixgun
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OK my 2 cents.
RobX is right, if you have all these issues running around, it's hard to get a plan of action in a linear progression.
Sometimes I 'pretend' it's a customer car and either I am coming in "cold" or I do not believe anything they told me.
(I am the tech, it's my job to troubleshoot,info given may be inaccurate)
*Double check your firing order.I have seen the 5-7
traded more often than you'd think(done it myself)
*You had vacuum leaks, you may have fixed them-GOOD!Do the careful covering of the venturis thing again and see if the idle still speeds up-maybe the intake gaskets themselves are leaking.You can check PART of this by spraying penetrant around the top of the ports.If the idle speeds up, you need to regasket the intake.Obviously you cannot check the underside this way, but it's a start.
*what kind of cam do you have?this 360 I just did has "one step above stock 340" and it has a pretty good lope,and runs rough until warmed up,
but pulls a solid 15" of vacuum at about 900-1000 idle.
*warm it up good before trying to adjust further
*some cam setups REQUIRE a 'short fast curve' to get the initial timing up where it wants to be, while keeping the total advance to a "reasonable"
35'(this varies a bit for different engine combos)
I have a stock style chrysler dizzy with slightly welded up slots to get the initial where the motor "wants" it.Still running about 35' total.
*if I read between the lines, you have pertronics stuff triggering an MSD? You might consider scrounging up a stock chrysler mag pickup dizzy
to simplify your task?just a thought on overcomplication.
*when you do get the initial where you want it, and plug the dizzy vac can into the PORTED orifice on the carb, you will see 50'of advance @
like 3000 rpm depending on the springs and weights in the dizzy.This is "normal".Timing should return to your initial @ idle.
*when you feel you have eliminated most (hopefully ALL) of the underlying issues try a vacuum gauge on the unported carb vacuum barb,and adjust your mixture screws for highest
warm idle vacuum.Won't always work on all setups, but sometimes does.Your ear is just not all that accurate.Vacuum should be relatively steady and not pulse too much if there are no serious mechanical problems in the engine(burnt exhaust valve, wiped cam lobe,worn out or broken piston ring etc.)
Best of luck, hope this helps.
The only dumb questions are the ones that aren't asked and answered.
C
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227204
05/07/12 03:45 PM
05/07/12 03:45 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
JohnRR - it's a 360. As far as idle, it's hard to check the timing at anything less than 1100 or 1200 because it wants to die, so it requires constant throttle feathering to keep it going.. as far as I can tell, I've got it around 18-20 degrees advance at the "idle" speed of 900 or so.. but like I said, it's hard to say for sure, because it doesn't want to stay running at that low of an RPM.
I'll have to see about disconnecting the MSD.. I don't remember how it's all wired in now, and all the wiring is nice and bundled up,... could be a pain in the butt to figure out how to disconnect it .. but I'll give it a shot.
It should be pretty easy to do , I assume you have the instructions for it ? If not go to the MSD website and get them.
I have a nice 360 Balancer should you decide to change it out .
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: Sixgun]
#1227205
05/07/12 03:59 PM
05/07/12 03:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
*Double check your firing order.I have seen the 5-7
traded more often than you'd think(done it myself)
Yup, checked this too... it's correct
Quote:
*You had vacuum leaks, you may have fixed them-GOOD!Do the careful covering of the venturis thing again and see if the idle still speeds up-maybe the intake gaskets themselves are leaking.You can check PART of this by spraying penetrant around the top of the ports.If the idle speeds up, you need to regasket the intake.Obviously you cannot check the underside this way, but it's a start.
I'll double check that... thanks.. forgot about that technique.
Quote:
*what kind of cam do you have?this 360 I just did has "one step above stock 340" and it has a pretty good lope,and runs rough until warmed up,
but pulls a solid 15" of vacuum at about 900-1000 idle.
It's a Comp Cam XE268H - moderate cam with the following specs:
Xtreme Energy XE268H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft & Lifter Kit
Lift: .477''/.480''
Duration: 268°/280°
RPM Range: 1600-5800
Since I can't get it to maintain an 'idle' of less than 1100 or 1200, I can't tell whether it's keeping steady vacuum there or not..
Quote:
*warm it up good before trying to adjust further
Yup, had it warmed up to about 200 degrees as I was trying to tune it
Quote:
*some cam setups REQUIRE a 'short fast curve' to get the initial timing up where it wants to be, while keeping the total advance to a "reasonable"
35'(this varies a bit for different engine combos)
I have a stock style chrysler dizzy with slightly welded up slots to get the initial where the motor "wants" it.Still running about 35' total.
*if I read between the lines, you have pertronics stuff triggering an MSD? You might consider scrounging up a stock chrysler mag pickup dizzy
to simplify your task?just a thought on overcomplication.
"Scrounge up" some Mopar parts? ha I'll see what I can find at a Junkyard.. probably not much though. Quote:
*when you do get the initial where you want it, and plug the dizzy vac can into the PORTED orifice on the carb, you will see 50'of advance @
like 3000 rpm depending on the springs and weights in the dizzy.This is "normal".Timing should return to your initial @ idle.
OK.. I did see that,.. it went up to about 55 or so.. if I recall correctly
Quote:
*when you feel you have eliminated most (hopefully ALL) of the underlying issues try a vacuum gauge on the unported carb vacuum barb,and adjust your mixture screws for highest
warm idle vacuum.Won't always work on all setups, but sometimes does.Your ear is just not all that accurate.Vacuum should be relatively steady and not pulse too much if there are no serious mechanical problems in the engine(burnt exhaust valve, wiped cam lobe,worn out or broken piston ring etc.)
Best of luck, hope this helps.
Thanks for the response.. I just need to be able to get it to stay running at 900 rpm or so in order to be able to adjust the mixture screws on the carb..
I wonder if I need to get a new HB, since mine doesn't seem to be accurately reflecting TDC.. .?
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227206
05/07/12 04:16 PM
05/07/12 04:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,607
Western Washington
Sixgun
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OK seems like you are covering all the basics and are moving on to more evil issues.Soooo... is your curve right? Can you get the initial(mechanical ONLY, vac plugged)that you are told to set at, AND keep the total where it needs to be? BTW paying close attention to JohnRR is a very good idea.I do. Darn! You have EXACTLY the same cam I have in this 360 John helped me out with.I like this grind! I have an airgap intake, Eddy 750 (I heard John groan when I typed that)and ported 2.02s. Idles kind of ragged, but I'm still breaking it in.Rarely stalls in gear. I also have an old dampener (cruddy) I will not vouch for, for free (old style 360 without big weight) though John has you covered there. You could probably get a NEW pioneer or something from O reillys or NAPA pretty cheap. If you want to cover the mailing I can give you a stock chrysler mag trigger dizzy as a "core" (will need vac can and new pickup, cannot trust old crud)If that helps LMK. John, the fricken'360 runs GREAT!!!thanks again for the tech and the piston/rod deal!My Wife is pretty happy too! C 
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227208
05/07/12 04:58 PM
05/07/12 04:58 PM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
First
Check for vac leaks again. If it's still got leaks, you will be chasing your tail!
Will do.. I feel like I'm getting dizzy from chasing my tail already! It's hard to tell when it'a a vacuum leak, or if the idle is just increasing due to fumes from the carb spray making it in the top of the carb.. Quote:
Second
Mark try this. Get it started and twist the intial up more. Whatever you observe now, turn it up another 4 degrees and see if you can get it to idle down.
I'll try that.. it seems like it speeds way up when I advance it up to about 25 or 30.. so I should try that, and then try to dial the idle back down to see if it smooths out? Quote:
See if the timing setting you observed at high idls has changed to a lower number with the new lower idle speed. As long as it starts without kicking back, bump it 2* at a time until it becomes hard to start, then back it off 2*. The numbers that were suggested are just that, suggestions, let the engine tell you what it wants.
OK, when I was playing around, I did observe this behavior at one point.. so I know what you're talking about.. I'll try using that as an indicator too.
Quote:
third...
Do you have any control of the primary side of the carb. Do the idle mix screws do anything right now. Can you see any fuel dripping in from the boosters?
Uh.. hard to tell if the idle mixture screws are doing much at this point, maybe if I can get the idle RPM down, I might be able to tell. At the risk of sounding stupid, I'm not sure which is the "primary side" of the carb (it's an Edelbrock Performer 1405 - 600cfm). Quote:
Here's some stuff that should be present on that engine.
Vacuum at idle of about 850-900 should be in the 13-15 area minimum.
It should idle cleanly at 850-900 rpm
In gear it should drop maybe 100 rpm.
Thanks again. I swear, I wish some of you guys lived closer.. I'd provide beer and pizza if you could come over to assist!
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227219
05/08/12 07:35 PM
05/08/12 07:35 PM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
How much fuel pressure do you have going to the carb?
Is it more than 5 psi? If so turn it down to 5 psi. I know the ede instruction say that you can run up to 6.5, yet, I've never had one run happy there.
it's right around 5 to 5.5 psi
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227224
05/09/12 01:52 PM
05/09/12 01:52 PM
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Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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I'll have to try that trick on mine  Also try rattling the throttle shafts to see if the bores are worn at all. There should be no lateral movement at all. Your intake is a squarebore, and not a spreadbore, correct? If it's spreadbore, you'll need an adapter plate to give it more room to seal.
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#1227225
05/09/12 02:09 PM
05/09/12 02:09 PM
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RobX4406
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Find someone with a KNOWN good carb, ANYTHING, find a holley 600 vac, and take that one you have off and try it.
The regulator you have is a POS if the pressure is creeping. If you set it at one pressure and it goes above that pressure, it's really not doing anything worthwhile! If you could only handle 100 pounds of weight while moving something from one hand to the other. That weight is regulated and the system suddenly decided to send you 150 pounds of items, what's gonna happen? Likely failure...
Timing, balancer, fuel pressure, carb settings, vacuum leaks and who knows what else is a problem you have.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227228
05/09/12 03:16 PM
05/09/12 03:16 PM
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Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
You still have the PB booster and everything else disconnected from the engine?
At least the person was honest with you and didn't just take your money. I doubt the metering rods will do squat at idle...
Yeah, everything is disconnected and plugged, the only vacuum line hooked up is the one on the back of the carb, which is hooked up to the vacuum gauge.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227230
05/09/12 03:24 PM
05/09/12 03:24 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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What about the gas that's in the car? How old is it?
He could put points back in the one he's running now, right?
Last edited by Challenger 1; 05/09/12 03:25 PM.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1227232
05/09/12 03:27 PM
05/09/12 03:27 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
He could put points back in the one he's running now, right?
True , I wasn't thinking about that .
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227233
05/09/12 03:29 PM
05/09/12 03:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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Seriously, I'm about ready to have it towed somewhere and just pay someone to get the POS running right for me. I'm going after so many different things (timing, ignition, vacuum, carburetor, possible cam problems, possible compression problems)... it's irritating as hell, and I appreciate all the help everyone's trying to give me, but I know there's only so much you guys can do to help me 'remotely'.. and I clearly have no idea WTH I'm doing. I was all excited to get the car painted, but I think I'm just as discouraged now as I was before I had it painted.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227235
05/09/12 03:57 PM
05/09/12 03:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Don't get discouraged, hang in there. I'm gonna be in Sacramento in a few weeks for a couple days. I'd be happy to come by and introduce myself and help you with what I know. Which isn't everything but hopfully enough to get you closer. I can bring some basic trouble shooting tools and see what we can find out. Hopefully you will get it straighten out before then. First thing I would do is a compression test since it's SB which are pretty easy to get to the spark plugs. I may even have a good known carb...on my car that I will be driving. We can try it if need be.  I have all the tuning stuff for 1405 too.  I'll PM you the dates if you want and see what your schedule looks like.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227236
05/10/12 03:51 AM
05/10/12 03:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
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Posts: 12,589
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Quote:
Have you pulled the valve covers to check for any excessively loose rockers ?
Thanks.. no, I haven't yet. I'll try that tomorrow morning.
I did pull 3 of the plugs tonight to take a look at them after having it idle for a little while.. .but they all look so different, I don't know which one to use as an indicator of what's going on!
http://calgecko.smugmug.com/Cars/Dart-Plugs/Plugs/22899968_Bqs8cj#!i=1839331706&k=3pq7Kz8
That's several photos of 3 different plugs, you can see that one of them has dark coloring on one side of the porcelain, but is clean on the other side... one of the plugs has clean porcelain all the way around, and the other is kinda tan...
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1227237
05/10/12 03:52 AM
05/10/12 03:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Don't get discouraged, hang in there.
I'm gonna be in Sacramento in a few weeks for a couple days. I'd be happy to come by and introduce myself and help you with what I know. Which isn't everything but hopfully enough to get you closer.
I can bring some basic trouble shooting tools and see what we can find out.
Hopefully you will get it straighten out before then.
First thing I would do is a compression test since it's SB which are pretty easy to get to the spark plugs.
I may even have a good known carb...on my car that I will be driving. We can try it if need be.
I have all the tuning stuff for 1405 too.
I'll PM you the dates if you want and see what your schedule looks like.
That would be HUGE ... I would really appreciate it if I can't get it running better by that time (or figure out the problem(s) ) ...
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227238
05/10/12 10:50 AM
05/10/12 10:50 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
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Wow those plugs are really really clean for an engine that wont idle. I would expect carbon fouled plugs. Anyway, from your plugs it looks like you have too much timing. Looks like your air fuel ratio is decent, you could probably stand to richen it up a little bit and see what it does, but I doubt that would make your problem better. Judging by the fact that you're not overly rich, its probably not either of these problems but it might be. 1. Not sure if this was mentioned before but have you verified that the metering rods are staying down at idle? 2. Are you sure that you put the metering rods back in? I've seen people forget them more times than you'd believe
Last edited by GTX MATT; 05/10/12 10:55 AM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: RobX4406]
#1227240
05/10/12 02:49 PM
05/10/12 02:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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I Live Here
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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more info..
This morning, I pulled all the plugs out and removed the valve covers.. rotated the crank by hand, and am very happy to say that every rocker moved up and down .. they all appeared to move the same amount.. I was a little worried (based on what someone else suggested at one point) that one of my cam lobes may have sheared/flattened...
I'm really wondering if my cam timing is off.... but without having adjustable cam sprockets, I would guess the only way my cam timing would be off is if it's off by an entire tooth... which is possible. When I installed the cam, I did it by lining up the dimples on the gears. I've watched videos on how to degree a cam, and it looks very complicated .. not to mention, it means I've got to pull everything (alternator, fan, water pump, timing cover) off the front of the engine... but if that's what I need to do, I guess I have no choice.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: BTTG]
#1227243
05/10/12 05:04 PM
05/10/12 05:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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Those plugs show that the engine is lean. That will happen when you have a vacum leak. Set your air/fuel mixture screws to 1 1/2 turns out. This setting will be close enough to get it running and chek for vac leaks. Leave the vac to the dist unplugged with the port on the carb plugged. As said before when its running spray something like WD 40, (but not starting fluid)around the base of the carb and the mating surfaces of the heads and manifold.. Get running enough to check for leaks before worring about setting the timing.
Did you timing chain set have the bottom gear with the 3 notches?
Even if you set it to the 4 degrees advanced or retarded it will run smooth except for the lumpity lumpity from the cam.
Tere is a post in the last couple of days that shows the lower gear.
I am truckless..
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: 340SHORTY]
#1227244
05/11/12 08:09 PM
05/11/12 08:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Sacramento, CA
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OK... did some more work...
Using the positive piston stop method, I did find that my balancer's TDC mark is RIGHT ON .. exactly.
So, then someone on another forum said that I should check the valve overlap at TDC at piston #1, and that if anything, the intake valve should be opening just a tad ahead of the exhaust valve. Well, it turns out the exhaust valve is open about .063" more than the intake valve at TDC. Apparently, this is an indicator of cam timing being retarded (might explain why I had to dial my ignition timing up to 30 degrees to get it to sorta run?)
Also, I was told to do a compression test on all cylinders, as the compression can be an indicator of cam timing being off...
compression readings were as follows:
Going around the engine from cylinder #1, by cylinder #
Drivers side, front of engine to back of engine:
cylinder:
1: 92psi
3: 92psi
5: 75psi
7: 80 psi
passenger side, front to back:
2: 90psi
4: 85psi
6: 100 psi
8: 70 psi
Looking more and more like my cam timing is off... .yeah?
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: MNobody]
#1227247
05/12/12 02:17 AM
05/12/12 02:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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Wasnt that motor rebuilt back when you did the Bar B Que post? How did you do the comp test? Those reading are really low for a new engine. Stop chasing all the things you suspect are wrong. Work on 1 problem and cure or confirm its right.
I am truckless..
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227249
05/12/12 03:51 AM
05/12/12 03:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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Quote:
Mark I don't see or remember seeing anything about this ...
You have a stock point distributor wit ha pertronics installed , correct ? Have you made any changes it to it to limit mechanical advance ? If the answer is no you want to keep your initial timing to no more than 5 degrees because the distributor has too much mechanical advance in it ....
This of course is after you figure out the cam timing issue .
Yeah, stock distributor with pertronix ignitor installed... I have not changed anything else within the distributor. Ain't no way it would idle at anything close to 5 degrees unless something drastic changes
how about a SBC swap? LOL
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227250
05/12/12 03:59 AM
05/12/12 03:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
Next step - get a Chevy Small Block and call it done.
The problems that you are having happen to Ford and Chevy guys as well. I was a Chevy guy for 16 years and I've had MORE than my share of car frustrations.
I have a stash of known good working parts here that I'd be willing to share. I've found that even if my troubleshooting skills are out of whack, a collection of spare parts to test can really help! My Bro in law has a Holley 600 on his Duster 360. I have several points and electronic distributors, some plug wires, ether/starting fluid to test for vacuum leaks, a dial back timing light.....I don't live very far away. Let me know if you want my help.
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1227252
05/12/12 09:10 AM
05/12/12 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Mark I don't see or remember seeing anything about this ...
You have a stock point distributor wit ha pertronics installed , correct ? Have you made any changes it to it to limit mechanical advance ? If the answer is no you want to keep your initial timing to no more than 5 degrees because the distributor has too much mechanical advance in it ....
This of course is after you figure out the cam timing issue .
Yeah, stock distributor with pertronix ignitor installed... I have not changed anything else within the distributor. Ain't no way it would idle at anything close to 5 degrees unless something drastic changes
how about a SBC swap? LOL
Mark , stock distributors have 30-32 degrees of mechanical advance , you can't set initial to anymore than 5 or it's going to ping like crazy.
That's just a stock replacement set , not guarantee it's dots are correct, borrow a degree wheel and check it .
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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1227253
05/12/12 12:58 PM
05/12/12 12:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mark I don't see or remember seeing anything about this ...
You have a stock point distributor wit ha pertronics installed , correct ? Have you made any changes it to it to limit mechanical advance ? If the answer is no you want to keep your initial timing to no more than 5 degrees because the distributor has too much mechanical advance in it ....
This of course is after you figure out the cam timing issue .
Yeah, stock distributor with pertronix ignitor installed... I have not changed anything else within the distributor. Ain't no way it would idle at anything close to 5 degrees unless something drastic changes
how about a SBC swap? LOL
Mark , stock distributors have 30-32 degrees of mechanical advance , you can't set initial to anymore than 5 or it's going to ping like crazy.
That's just a stock replacement set , not guarantee it's dots are correct, borrow a degree wheel and check it .
John, at this point total timing is the least of his worries. Just adds to the confusion. He's going to require altering the mechanical advance when this idle issue is solved.
Those compression test numbers are horrible unless that thing is in the 7:1 range. If the engine was a 9:1 static it should have about 140-155psi if everything was installed correctly.
Mark, I had one of those timing sets that when the dots were lined up, my cam was 8 degrees retarded from where it should have been. I know that this is frustrating for you. Stay with it. The engine will run good once you get things right.
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... PM me your address and I'll send you the 360 balancer I have .
