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Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere #1226259
05/02/12 09:47 PM
05/02/12 09:47 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Ive never been really satisfied with the way the cooling system has performed and now that its warming up here (Phoenix) the engine temps seem to be creeping higher. Here is what I am working with: 67 Belvedere, 451, 10.5:1, Edelbrock heads, the block was cleaned three times during the machining process and a final cleaning before assembly so all the passages are clear, the 26" radiator was cleaned by a radiator shop prior to the new motor going in. I have ran a 7 blade flex fan and currently running a factory 7 blade clutch fan with a new Hayden clutch. The fan clutch is sitting 7/8" - 1" away from the radiator and using a factory shroud. 16 lb Chrysler radiator cap. The last time I drove it the temp was about 92 or so and going down the highway was running about 200 deg and then to 220 after getting off the freeway and pulling into the cruise in. I was running a Robertshaw 180 stat and have since replaced that with a Mr. Gasket high flow 180 stat with no real drop in temp. Distilled water and water wetter. The lower radiator hose has the spring inside so that should not be collapsing.

I also run a trans cooler to help with running a 9.5 torque converter. I do not think it is a lean issue with the carb or timing because it pulls way too hard and strong. Not sure what else to try at this point as I dont think I need to resort to electric fans and that sort of thing.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226260
05/02/12 09:53 PM
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what type of water pump housing is it? i'm guessing aluminum? there were issues with the inlet being too small.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226261
05/02/12 10:05 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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It sounds like you have all the right stuff.

Even though you are happy with the way it runs, the solution your looking for, lies in the tune up. It could be better and your car will run cooler.

Richen it up and see, it can't hurt and I bet helps on the highway.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: mikemee1331] #1226262
05/02/12 10:05 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Its a factory cast iron housing and factory pump. It was cleaned at the same time as the radiator. Also have the heater hose ports plugged, no heater box.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: mikemee1331] #1226263
05/02/12 10:07 PM
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Quote:

what type of water pump housing is it? i'm guessing aluminum? there were issues with the inlet being too small.




the bigger question is what water pump , the CCJ housing even though it has restricted flow was not found to be a real huge problem , the CCJ pump is a different story .

Also your 26" rad , 2 row or 3 ?

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: JohnRR] #1226264
05/02/12 10:12 PM
05/02/12 10:12 PM
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What's the timing set at?

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: stumpy] #1226265
05/02/12 10:17 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226266
05/02/12 10:19 PM
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Quote:

3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.




Distributor is locked meaning no mechanical advance ? if so there is your problem , all you have is 20 degrees ...

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226267
05/02/12 10:32 PM
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Not too much information on the timing your running, or what type of dist/ignition, or the method of advance...same with the carb?, a lean condition can cause unnecessary heat? what are you doing to determine a lean/rich condition?.....seat of the pants feel is not a good lean/rich indicator, plug readings?, O2 readings?...



As far as the mechanical end, IMHO I'd toss the clutch fan, run a factory 7 blade HD fixed fan, the space between the fan to radiator is not as important as how much blade area is inside the shroud, you should have at least 50%-75% of the fan buried inside the shroud for a proper pull, play around with different spacers to achieve the proper spacing, make sure you try and maintain at least 1" or more away from the radiator, as fixed fan blades at high RPMs can "flex" outward towards the radiator...

As far as the Chemical end, I'd recommend ZEREX G-05 Antifreeze, distilled water 50/50 mix, and 8-10 oz. of REDLINE water wetter

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226268
05/02/12 10:36 PM
05/02/12 10:36 PM
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I have virtually the same set-up, other than it being a 440, and an A/C water pump...

Bumper to bumper in 95 degree heat-never goes over 180...

Has it been running hot since you fired the engine???

Has the block been cut more than .030???

Are you certain the correct head gaskets are in place???

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226269
05/02/12 10:40 PM
05/02/12 10:40 PM
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Here's a combo that works very well for me on a 496 with AC:

- MP High volume water pump with anti-cavitation plate driven about 7% above crank speed
- MP aluminum housing
- 26" aluminum top tank radiator, 2" thick. Its a Mancini "Muscle Car" radiator
- Matching shroud
- 180 degree high flow stat. Originally Mr Gasket which worked (apparantly many don't) and now a Milodon stat only because I was nervous about the Mr gasket
- MP clutch fan kit with 5 blade "low drag" fan. I have a 7 blade as backup but haven't needed it

With the car moving, it always runs right up against the 180 degree stat. It actually ran 175 with the Mr gasket because it opened a little early. With the car parked and idling on a hot day with AC running it will creep up to 205 or so after 10-15 min.

I'll suggest you look at the water pump first and radiator second. Check pulley ratios. The high volume pump slightly overdriven seems to work really well. MP pumps are still available but spendy. If I bought another I'd probably buy a Mancini high volume.

On the radiator, you didn't comment on age or condition. Usually, hot running at speed is a sign of a plugged or inadequate radiator. A clean full depth (ie 2" or more) 3 core should do it but for some reason yours isn't. Some aftermarket 3 core rads are really thin. If its old or plugged or thin you may need a better radiator.

Also the tuneup matters. Mechanical + vacuum advance to get you in the 35-50 degree advance range while cruising helps the engine run efficiently and cool. A good cooling system should still be able to overcome a not perfect tuneup but every little bit matters.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: JohnRR] #1226270
05/02/12 10:45 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.




Distributor is locked meaning no mechanical advance ? if so there is your problem , all you have is 20 degrees ...




Man, you need closer to 33-35 at 2,500 RPM or above, and 50-55 with vacuum. Not only is it heating up from the spark so late, but all that unburned fuel is killing the rings and cyl walls (fuel wash), and diluting the oil, not to mention making the Arabs rich!

Rick

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: JohnRR] #1226271
05/02/12 11:18 PM
05/02/12 11:18 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Sorry, 20 initial and 16 mechanical. One heavy and one light advance spring.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226272
05/02/12 11:34 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Here is a little more info:

* MP electronic dist, chrome box. 20 deg initial, 16 mechanical, advance springs changed to one light and one heavy

* 800 Edelbrock carb, re-jetted and rods richened, larger needle and seat than box stock

* The plugs look spot on with no signs of too lean or rich and no detonation

* The head gaskets are correct, no cooling holes mis-aligned or blocked, that was all checked before final assembly

* Block was sonic checked before an .030 bore, plenty of material so the walls are not too thin

* The radiator has about 2700 miles since new and was cleaned before the new motor was assembled. 700-800 miles on the new motor. It was new from Year One.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226273
05/02/12 11:54 PM
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Sounds like you have the block cleaning covered and timing is in the ballpark. Vacuum advance would help but you shouldn't be overheating without it. How about radiator thickness, WP type and WP/fan pulley ratio?

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226274
05/02/12 11:55 PM
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Bowie, MD
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Quote:

The fan clutch is sitting 7/8" - 1" away from the radiator and using a factory shroud.


That might be the problem. The fan should sit out enough from the edge of the shroud to pull cool through the radiator. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air around inside the shroud instead of pulling cool air through the radiator.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: ahy] #1226275
05/03/12 12:01 AM
05/03/12 12:01 AM
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Not sure on the rad thickness. Its a factory cast iron housing and a 6 blade impeller pump which is an A/C pump I beleive. Not sure on the pulley ratios but I will look into it more tomorrow.


I have always just had the vacuum advance disconnected.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226276
05/03/12 08:09 AM
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Looks like you have just about everything covered. A bad ground on an engine block will cause it to overheat.
I would also run a fixed 7 blade fan. Plus a smaller water pump pulley.

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Rick_Ehrenberg] #1226277
05/03/12 10:01 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.




Distributor is locked meaning no mechanical advance ? if so there is your problem , all you have is 20 degrees ...




Man, you need closer to 33-35 at 2,500 RPM or above, and 50-55 with vacuum. Not only is it heating up from the spark so late, but all that unburned fuel is killing the rings and cyl walls (fuel wash), and diluting the oil, not to mention making the Arabs rich!

Rick



Quote:

Sorry, 20 initial and 16 mechanical. One heavy and one light advance spring.





Okay is it locked or unlocked?

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere [Re: Belvedere1] #1226278
05/03/12 10:31 AM
05/03/12 10:31 AM
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Ontario, Canada
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Time for a new rad I went through that years ago finally after some advice had new three rows installed and that was the end of my problems.
A shroud helps too!

Out of what carb, jets and power valve if applicable?

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