440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
#1193261
03/08/12 04:20 AM
03/08/12 04:20 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
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GTX MATT
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Alright guys I'm bringing this 440 over to the machine shop. My machine shop is recommending wiseco pistons, and the owner (Joe) said he will give them to me at his cost which is just over 500 with rings. These pistons have a compression height of 2.05 inches. Am I going to have to have the block decked excessively to get zero deck? Most of the KB pistons are more like 2.06 compression height. And I know when you mill the heads you need to mill the intake surface to correct the geometry, is anything required with milling of the deck? Or does it not effect geometry? Also, whats the preference for aftermarket H beams, eagle or scat? They are priced about the same. I always thought Eagle was a better brand. Other than that here's the gist of my build, throw any comments in! 1968 440, .030 over Wiseco flat tops with valve reliefs of 6cc, 2.05 compression distance Eagle or Scat H beam rods Stock forged crank, turned .010 undersized Clevite 77 tri-metal rod and main bearings, with the mains being full grooved high volume oil pump 440 Source Stealth Heads. I would do E brocks but I really prefer the stockish look and the straight plugs. Upgraded locks and retainers are in the plan. Old TM7 tarantula intake DC509 cam, the old one with the 108 LSA Erson ductile iron rockers Hooker Competition headers 800 Double Pumper The car is a '67 Satellite, 727 with ~3000 stall and 4.10s with L60s. The car is really just a street car but will see some strip action just to get a time slip. I'm hoping for 11.80s once the suspension is sorted out. 
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1193262
03/08/12 04:55 AM
03/08/12 04:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,484
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
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SoCal
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Quote:
Alright guys I'm bringing this 440 over to the machine shop. My machine shop is recommending wiseco pistons, and the owner (Joe) said he will give them to me at his cost which is just over 500 with rings. These pistons have a compression height of 2.05 inches. Am I going to have to have the block decked excessively to get zero deck? Most of the KB pistons are more like 2.06 compression height.
And I know when you mill the heads you need to mill the intake surface to correct the geometry, is anything required with milling of the deck? Or does it not effect geometry?
Also, whats the preference for aftermarket H beams, eagle or scat? They are priced about the same. I always thought Eagle was a better brand.
Other than that here's the gist of my build, throw any comments in!
1968 440, .030 over
Wiseco flat tops with valve reliefs of 6cc, 2.05 compression distance
Eagle or Scat H beam rods
Stock forged crank, turned .010 undersized
Clevite 77 tri-metal rod and main bearings, with the mains being full grooved
high volume oil pump
440 Source Stealth Heads. I would do E brocks but I really prefer the stockish look and the straight plugs. Upgraded locks and retainers are in the plan.
Old TM7 tarantula intake
DC509 cam, the old one with the 108 LSA
Erson ductile iron rockers
Hooker Competition headers
800 Double Pumper
The car is a '67 Satellite, 727 with ~3000 stall and 4.10s with L60s.
The car is really just a street car but will see some strip action just to get a time slip. I'm hoping for 11.80s once the suspension is sorted out.
Hands down go with Scat rods. Actually stock rods with bolts will do just fine for this power level.
The difference in comp. ht. is only .010. I would mock it up, then determine if you can run a thinner cometic head gasket. They make them from .017 thick and up.
Are you using a good oil pan? You'll need it with an HV pump. Full groove bearings are not neccessary for this build. 1/2 or 3/4 groove will do.
We usually mill the intake manifold to keep the valve cover rail as thick as possible because they are pretty thin as is.
Brian Hafliger
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Re: 440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1193265
03/08/12 10:36 AM
03/08/12 10:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
If you want zero deck with those pistons and rods, he's probably going to have to mill your deck about .025", give or take a little for block squareness and casting tolerances. Nothing to worry about IMO.
Seriously ??? Would you cut .025 off a head and not worry about anything ? Not cut the intake side of the head ???
I have to do some math 
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Re: 440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
[Re: JohnRR]
#1193267
03/08/12 10:59 AM
03/08/12 10:59 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
If you want zero deck with those pistons and rods, he's probably going to have to mill your deck about .025", give or take a little for block squareness and casting tolerances. Nothing to worry about IMO.
Seriously ??? Would you cut .025 off a head and not worry about anything ? Not cut the intake side of the head ???
I have to do some math
Well right off the bat we almost all go to a .039 fel pro composition gasket so that puts the heads back up .017 to .018 right off the bat from stock .022 steel shims. so little change then unless you do excessive milling to the head after that nothing to worry about.
That will put his true compression around 10.2 to 1 (I cc a set of stealth's last year all were 82.5 to 83.5) so with the 3000 stall you will need for the 509 should run fine on 89 91 for sure.
As said clearance the heads on the intake side for pushrod think even 5/16 will be to tight.
Degree that cam in about 103 (102 to 104) it will really wake it up.
If you do not degree it they are often around 107 to 109 and you should use a 4000 stall! Even at 106 it will need a 3500 to 3800 stall.
trust me I love that cam but it needs to be degreed in with some extra advance.
Set the total mechanical timing to 38 all in by 1500 (i like 1200) and you should have a stout little combo!
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Re: 440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
[Re: Dodgem]
#1193268
03/08/12 11:04 AM
03/08/12 11:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you want zero deck with those pistons and rods, he's probably going to have to mill your deck about .025", give or take a little for block squareness and casting tolerances. Nothing to worry about IMO.
Seriously ??? Would you cut .025 off a head and not worry about anything ? Not cut the intake side of the head ???
I have to do some math
Well right off the bat we almost all go to a .039 fel pro composition gasket so that puts the heads back up .017 to .018 right off the bat from stock .022 steel shims. so little change then unless you do excessive milling to the head after that nothing to worry about.
That will put his true compression around 10.2 to 1 (I cc a set of stealth's last year all were 82.5 to 83.5) so with the 3000 stall you will need for the 509 should run fine on 89 91 for sure.
the valley end rails need to be cut , you use the sme math as the intake side of the heads , .0123 for every .010 of the deck of the valley pan , ASSuMEing he is using that, will not sit flat. Plus he needs to check the heads to the valley end rails. On my 383 stroker build between the heads I was using , cut .050ish , and the deck cut about .025 , I had to take .070 off the valley rails to get the intake gasket to sit right .
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Re: 440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
[Re: Dodgem]
#1193269
03/08/12 11:14 AM
03/08/12 11:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Ontario, Canada
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Wiseco shows a 2.065 piston on page 41 that is what you want unless you decks are way under spec http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Automotive/CompleteCatalog.pdfChrysler 440 Flat Top Kit Part # Bore Size Comp. Ht. Stroke Rod Lgth. Pin Dia. Dome Volume Comp. Ratio 88cc Head 78cc Head Cubic Inch Repl. Piston Repl. Ring Part # PT034H3 4.350” 2.050 3.750” 6.760” 1.094" -4cc 9.8:1 10.7:1 446 5034H3 4350H PT034H55 4.375” 9.9:1 10.7:1 451 5034H55 4375H New! Chrysler 440 Flat Top • OEM & Indy Cyl. Heads Kit Part # Bore Size Comp. Ht. Stroke Rod Lgth. Pin Dia. Dome Volume Comp. Ratio 88cc Head 78cc Head Cubic Inch Repl. Piston Repl. Ring Part # PT137H3^ 4.350” 2.065 3.750” 6.760” .990" -6.3cc 9.6:1 10.4:1 446 5137H3 4350H PT137H4^ 4.360” 9.6:1 10.5:1 448 5137H4 4360H PT137H55^ 4.375” 9.7:1 10.6:1 451 5137H55 4375H
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Re: 440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
[Re: Dodgem]
#1193270
03/08/12 11:15 AM
03/08/12 11:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Wiseco shows a 2.065 piston on page 41 that is what you want unless you decks are way under spec
http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Automotive/CompleteCatalog.pdf
Chrysler 440 Flat Top
Kit Part # Bore Size Comp. Ht. Stroke Rod Lgth. Pin Dia. Dome
Volume
Comp. Ratio
88cc Head 78cc Head Cubic Inch Repl. Piston Repl. Ring
Part #
PT034H3 4.350”
2.050 3.750” 6.760” 1.094" -4cc 9.8:1 10.7:1 446 5034H3 4350H PT034H55 4.375” 9.9:1 10.7:1 451 5034H55 4375H
New! Chrysler 440 Flat Top • OEM & Indy Cyl. Heads
Kit Part # Bore Size Comp. Ht. Stroke Rod Lgth. Pin Dia. Dome
Volume
Comp. Ratio
88cc Head 78cc Head Cubic Inch Repl. Piston Repl. Ring
Part #
PT137H3^ 4.350” 2.065 3.750” 6.760” .990" -6.3cc 9.6:1 10.4:1 446 5137H3 4350H
PT137H4^ 4.360” 9.6:1 10.5:1 448 5137H4 4360H
PT137H55^ 4.375” 9.7:1 10.6:1 451 5137H55 4375H
That may be what he NEEDS , but he WANTS the CHEAPY piston and ring package ... 
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Re: 440 Build questions and acheiving zero deck
[Re: R/T1968R/T]
#1193272
03/08/12 01:31 PM
03/08/12 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
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My problem with the wisecos with the 2.06 compression height is that they don't seem to be available in a .030 over size, only .055 over.
I was actually going to inquire as to what everyone was running for an oil pan, but I figured I'd save it for another thread. I'm looking at 7 qt pans, particularly the Milodon low profile 7 quart but it says that its 7 inches deep which is the same as all of the non-low profile pans that hold 7 quarts so I'm wondering what gives.
And if the consensus is that full groove mains aren't necessary, is the high volume pump necessary?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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