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440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? #1192250
03/06/12 01:33 PM
03/06/12 01:33 PM
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Fort Worth, Texas
xs29j8 Offline OP
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My 1970 `Cuda 440-6 had an engine rebuild in the early 1970s, and the transmission replaced in the late 1970s. I bought the car in the early 1980s, and the time has come to rebuild the transmission. The guy doing the work called to tell me the torque converter has no weights or other signs of balancing... I am having him remove the oil pan to look for any indication the engine was neutral balanced when rebuilt in the early 70s.

My Question - How severe would the vibration be if the engine was still set up for external balancing, but a neutral balance converter had be used in the late 70s rebuild...???

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192251
03/06/12 02:26 PM
03/06/12 02:26 PM
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You would have a noticeable vibration at idle and all speeds , does it still have the external balancer on the front ?

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: JohnRR] #1192252
03/06/12 02:52 PM
03/06/12 02:52 PM
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Quote:

You would have a noticeable vibration at idle and all speeds , does it still have the external balancer on the front ?




Yes, the correct external balancer is there. It is possible to neutral balance them tho, would have to check the back side of the damper.

No vibration at idle, maybe a slight vibration while revving the engine... not severe.

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192253
03/06/12 03:06 PM
03/06/12 03:06 PM
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The vibrations come and go at different RPM, I've had two motors that had the correct dampener and the incorrect converters, one motorhome motor and one 1971 U code HP motor with the big rods


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1192254
03/06/12 03:33 PM
03/06/12 03:33 PM
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Quote:

The vibrations come and go at different RPM, I've had two motors that had the correct dampener and the incorrect converters, one motorhome motor and one 1971 U code HP motor with the big rods




Any vibration at idle? IIRC, there was some vibration between 2500-3000 RPM while revving in neutral...

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192255
03/06/12 05:14 PM
03/06/12 05:14 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

The vibrations come and go at different RPM, I've had two motors that had the correct dampener and the incorrect converters, one motorhome motor and one 1971 U code HP motor with the big rods




Any vibration at idle? IIRC, there was some vibration between 2500-3000 RPM while revving in neutral...


every tach can read different a little, its been a long time ago on the U code 440 motor but I remember it shaking a little at idle and quiet a bit more at 2300 RPM in nuetral Buy the correct converter or a B&M flex plate and add the proper weights


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192256
03/06/12 05:21 PM
03/06/12 05:21 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

You would have a noticeable vibration at idle and all speeds , does it still have the external balancer on the front ?




Yes, the correct external balancer is there. It is possible to neutral balance them tho, would have to check the back side of the damper.

No vibration at idle, maybe a slight vibration while revving the engine... not severe.




A 440-6 should have a weighted convertor , the fact that it has the correct balancer points to it being internal balance though it could be internal balance. I have seen a 6pk dampner drilled to make it internal balnce and still have the look , you could pull it or use a mirror to look it over real well to see if it has a large amount of holes drilled 180 from the weight.

I did have a 440 with 6pk rods and heavy TRW 6pak replacement internal balnced internal balanced with just a small amount of steel added to the crank , I imagine someone could balance the crank to use the weighted dampner on the front and no weights on the rear but the only way you are going to figure that out is to talk to the shop that did the work originally or pull it out and have it checked .

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: JohnRR] #1192257
03/06/12 06:41 PM
03/06/12 06:41 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You would have a noticeable vibration at idle and all speeds , does it still have the external balancer on the front ?




Yes, the correct external balancer is there. It is possible to neutral balance them tho, would have to check the back side of the damper.

No vibration at idle, maybe a slight vibration while revving the engine... not severe.




A 440-6 should have a weighted convertor , the fact that it has the correct balancer points to it being internal balance though it could be internal balance. I have seen a 6pk dampner drilled to make it internal balnce and still have the look , you could pull it or use a mirror to look it over real well to see if it has a large amount of holes drilled 180 from the weight.

I did have a 440 with 6pk rods and heavy TRW 6pak replacement internal balnced internal balanced with just a small amount of steel added to the crank , I imagine someone could balance the crank to use the weighted dampner on the front and no weights on the rear but the only way you are going to figure that out is to talk to the shop that did the work originally or pull it out and have it checked .




Thanks for the replies! The mechanic called to say it looks all original inside, big rods with no signs of internal balancing. Photos to be emailed later this evening...

I guess the `Cuda had more than one "Shaker" for the last 30+ years... Very mild vibration tho...

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192258
03/06/12 07:10 PM
03/06/12 07:10 PM
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Sounds like all you need is the correctly imbalanced flexplate to have a goer.
R.

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: dogdays] #1192259
03/06/12 07:26 PM
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Quote:

Sounds like all you need is the correctly imbalanced flexplate to have a goer.
R.




, hopefully nothing got hurt from the imbalance . The 383 in my dart had what I believe was a 360 130tooth flywheel on it for I don't know how long , had a vibration , I change the clutch and had the flywheel check and rebalanced , it still has a vibration but I'm not sure now how well the imbalance was corrected considering the shop that did it missed on my stroker crank balance when I had it checked .

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: JohnRR] #1192260
03/06/12 09:21 PM
03/06/12 09:21 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Sounds like all you need is the correctly imbalanced flexplate to have a goer.
R.




, hopefully nothing got hurt from the imbalance . The 383 in my dart had what I believe was a 360 130tooth flywheel on it for I don't know how long , had a vibration , I change the clutch and had the flywheel check and rebalanced , it still has a vibration but I'm not sure now how well the imbalance was corrected considering the shop that did it missed on my stroker crank balance when I had it checked .




Currently planning to use the B&M 10238 flexpate:

http://bmracing.com/?wpsc-product=chrysler-sfi-flexplate-70-up-chrysler-4404-wtf727

...concerned about the .008 TIR engine to transmission requirement for installation tho...

Pics just received:

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192261
03/06/12 09:25 PM
03/06/12 09:25 PM
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.........

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192262
03/06/12 09:31 PM
03/06/12 09:31 PM
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Number matching block... I plan to have the engine rebult in the next 1-2 years...

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192263
03/06/12 09:35 PM
03/06/12 09:35 PM
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What a cast crank ??? .....Just kidding... ...I'd try for the right parts and see if the mystery vibrations go away...Hopefully the previous rebuild did'nt try to neutral balance, get it close then just go with it...You'll know soon enough with all the right parts in there...Good Luck...

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192264
03/07/12 01:35 AM
03/07/12 01:35 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Sounds like all you need is the correctly imbalanced flexplate to have a goer.
R.




, hopefully nothing got hurt from the imbalance . The 383 in my dart had what I believe was a 360 130tooth flywheel on it for I don't know how long , had a vibration , I change the clutch and had the flywheel check and rebalanced , it still has a vibration but I'm not sure now how well the imbalance was corrected considering the shop that did it missed on my stroker crank balance when I had it checked .




Currently planning to use the B&M 10238 flexpate:

http://bmracing.com/?wpsc-product=chrysler-sfi-flexplate-70-up-chrysler-4404-wtf727

...concerned about the .008 TIR engine to transmission requirement for installation tho...

Pics just received:




Is it the original trans ? if so the TIR shouldn't be an issue .

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: JohnRR] #1192265
03/07/12 03:05 AM
03/07/12 03:05 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Sounds like all you need is the correctly imbalanced flexplate to have a goer.
R.




, hopefully nothing got hurt from the imbalance . The 383 in my dart had what I believe was a 360 130tooth flywheel on it for I don't know how long , had a vibration , I change the clutch and had the flywheel check and rebalanced , it still has a vibration but I'm not sure now how well the imbalance was corrected considering the shop that did it missed on my stroker crank balance when I had it checked .




Currently planning to use the B&M 10238 flexpate:

http://bmracing.com/?wpsc-product=chrysler-sfi-flexplate-70-up-chrysler-4404-wtf727

...concerned about the .008 TIR engine to transmission requirement for installation tho...

Pics just received:




Is it the original trans ? if so the TIR shouldn't be an issue .




No, the transmission is not the orginal... or even the correct P/N or year of make. So far, no luck in my search for a Six Pack P/N transmission...

I believe the engine is fine... the main bearings might have been hammered a bit, but the oil pressure is good even at hot idle conditions. My plans to rebuild the engine are more about wanting an extra 100 HP than the condition, but this issue gives it a bit more urgency...

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192266
03/07/12 10:59 AM
03/07/12 10:59 AM
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TIR could be an issue with the B+M plate , it's not as forgiving as the factory plate .

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: JohnRR] #1192267
03/08/12 01:09 AM
03/08/12 01:09 AM
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Quote:

TIR could be an issue with the B+M plate , it's not as forgiving as the factory plate .




Found another possible bolt on solution... whatcha think John & Cab? Anyone else ever use this product?...

http://www.kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=2077&cat=0&page=3

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192268
03/08/12 01:15 AM
03/08/12 01:15 AM
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KMJ warns that the balance plate may not work with a stock beveled flex plate... might have to bevel the balance plate?!?

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192269
03/08/12 02:20 AM
03/08/12 02:20 AM
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Get the right converter Or get the add on weight kit for your converter and have them welded on

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 03/08/12 12:09 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192270
03/08/12 11:14 AM
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Quote:

KMJ warns that the balance plate may not work with a stock beveled flex plate... might have to bevel the balance plate?!?




You would put the plate behind the stock flexplate . I like the idea of that add on , but how thick is it ?

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: JohnRR] #1192271
03/08/12 10:36 PM
03/08/12 10:36 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

KMJ warns that the balance plate may not work with a stock beveled flex plate... might have to bevel the balance plate?!?




You would put the plate behind the stock flexplate . I like the idea of that add on , but how thick is it ?




Sorry for the delay in replyng... it has been a long day. The guy at KMJ said he thought it was about .125 thick, but he did not seem to be certain....

I believe that A&A Transmission may finally be shipping my rebuild parts... been trying for three days to get them shipped. My order total was "only" $1065, I guess their bigger customers kept them occupied... kept being told there were 6-7 orders ahead of me

BTW, when I rebuild the engine, I plan to internally balance it, hence my interest in a bolt-on solution...

Re: 440 Six Pack Vibration w/ Neutral Bal Torque Converter? [Re: xs29j8] #1192272
03/09/12 01:55 AM
03/09/12 01:55 AM
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Quote:



BTW, when I rebuild the engine, I plan to internally balance it, hence my interest in a bolt-on solution...




Use theB+M plate and deal with a mismatch , if there is one , during the rebuild

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