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11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? #1190291
03/03/12 02:08 PM
03/03/12 02:08 PM
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Reno, Nevada
NV69B7RR Offline OP
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I'm purchasing the front end parts for my 71 Duster 340 resto, and wondered if upgrading to the C body tie rods would be worthwhile.

What benefits do you get by upgrading the tie rods?

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #1190292
03/03/12 03:14 PM
03/03/12 03:14 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Mopar Actions guys claimed that the thicker C body 11/16" units were stronger at resisting flex and deflection. I'll bet that they would also agree that this stuff may be overkill for a drag car or one that isn't going to be driven hard in the corners.

Last edited by Frankenduster; 03/05/12 04:10 AM.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Kern Dog] #1190293
03/03/12 03:25 PM
03/03/12 03:25 PM
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Texas
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Daty Rogers Offline
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I used 70 Newport ones on my 67 Bcuda vert, it was better but then I rebuilt my entire front end at the time.

-Daty

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #1190294
03/03/12 03:38 PM
03/03/12 03:38 PM
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Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Being larger, then tend to be stiffer which will translate to more precise steering response. Provided everything else is up to par; ie suspension joints, steering box, steering box mount etc.

IMO, they were a justifiable mod when using the stock style,split sleeve adjusters. Using a newer solid sleeve adjuster, they are overkill, even for a handling application. The 9/16 tie rods with a solid sleeve are capable of supporting somthing in the range of up to 6G worth of loading before failure. This is way more than any stock based suspension could ever deliver, so why add the extra weight of the 11/16 version.

However, they are a popular upgrade.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #1190295
03/03/12 04:10 PM
03/03/12 04:10 PM
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Oregon
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For many cars, the 11/16 tie rod ends are less expensive. Evidently the volume on them is higher or something. I always use them.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: TC@HP2] #1190296
03/03/12 04:46 PM
03/03/12 04:46 PM
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Phila. Pa.
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Another option is to weld the sleeve whoch makes deflection down the seam (oil canning) near impossible. Must be very careful doing this to make sure there is enough slit open so the clamping still works AND the threads don't get any splatter. Another way might be to add a third clamp in the center of the sleeve. "Might" because I haven't done it or seen it done with my own eyes.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Mattax] #1190297
03/03/12 05:22 PM
03/03/12 05:22 PM
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Nebraska
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Judging by the pictures ive seen of them side by side, the actual ball joint itself and its housing isnt any bigger between the two.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #1190298
03/03/12 11:54 PM
03/03/12 11:54 PM
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Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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Over the past decade? I've asked this question many times, and have yet to get a definite answer, other then an 11/16" is stronger the a 9/16", a 3/4" TR is stronger then 11/16", a 7/8" stronger....... But never to what purpose other then peace of mind, your world stops if one breaks, and so on. Those that give glowing reviews to this upgrade, always seem to also mention they also at the same time reset the alignment, added new shocks, changed TB's, moved the battery to the trunk, but by golly the 11/16" TR are the hot ticket. Nobody has yet said how much flex is possibly involved. When I get home Sunday, I'll try to calculate how much constant arc flex must occur in say a typical 9/16" x 12"? TR assembly to give a whopping 1/16" toe variation. I'm going to take a wild first guess and say the assembly would have to bow 3/8" off center to give a 1/16" decrease in toe from a compression force. I don't think the forces exist, short of a four story building, to stretch in tension the assembly 1/16". I suspect the "weak" link of the TR assembly is the force path thru the curved TR casting, and the reactions there would be the original source for flexing. Heim joints don't have that problem, but they are usually a single shear design, and far from ideal. However I have serious doubts if it is indeed a real issue in the first place. I don't expect we are referring here in "corners" to poorly maintained, or simply worn out TR assemblies and the comparable lifespan of such between 9/16 and 11/16.

This topic is just another flavor of the month, IMO, behind LCA reinforcements, adding rear discs on non track driven cars, back braces on 8.75, rear sway bars, .....but I digress


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: jcc] #1190299
03/04/12 01:01 AM
03/04/12 01:01 AM
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Irving, TX
feets Offline
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I always thought it was done for the larger sleeve. Going thicker on the rod itself won't make much of a difference. By the time you bend a tie rod other stuff will be destroyed.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: feets] #1190300
03/04/12 02:37 AM
03/04/12 02:37 AM
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IN
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ahy Offline
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I did the upgrade... and no I don't have any meaningful before and after because I changed several things at once. There is another way to look at it though... Chrysler made the upgrade to the heavier tie rods on heavier cars for a reason.

When you put big sticky tires on lighter B's, E's and A's and drive them hard, the steering loads will increase. Upgrades Chrysler made for the heavier cars may be "just right".

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: ahy] #1190301
03/04/12 08:25 AM
03/04/12 08:25 AM
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Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

I did the upgrade... and no I don't have any meaningful before and after because I changed several things at once. There is another way to look at it though... Chrysler made the upgrade to the heavier tie rods on heavier cars for a reason.

When you put big sticky tires on lighter B's, E's and A's and drive them hard, the steering loads will increase. Upgrades Chrysler made for the heavier cars may be "just right".




A heavier car, heavier truck, is one thing, and I agree many suspension mods are intended to generate higher CORNERING loads, but I have yet to see a strong case made that the STEERING loads increase. We seldom make our cars heavier, actually in "corners" lighter is the preferred goal.


For additional background, review my diatribe in a similar vein over on the welded k members pic thread.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: jcc] #1190302
03/04/12 10:26 AM
03/04/12 10:26 AM
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NY NY
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340duster340 Offline
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What did the trans-am and NASCAR guys run bak in the day?


1966 Dart GT ...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: 340duster340] #1190303
03/04/12 02:23 PM
03/04/12 02:23 PM
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Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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I take it there is no further need to post what running road course laps with a street car equipped with the better hardware does to the handling and ride both on and off the track.
Starting from stock to the larger tie rods/sleeves to the solid sleeves...Is it possible that a 26 inch tall 10 inch wide tire puts bigger loads on the steering hardware?? You know the tire size that is optimum for these cars other than an a body, but a key piece of info that is overlooked constantly.

When a test passenger whom is not a car person can notice the difference in a car [while just driving around] from changes like tubular uca's a welded k frame, different tires it's obvious the stuff works.

It's great to ask questions to learn but to poke at subjects with no practical experience other than a calculator and race car experience is not nice. Race cars are not the old crap we drive.

Remember the goal - we are trying to build street cars that can run laps and drive like a new car. If you think this forum is for racing you are in the wrong place. How many of us can afford to go racing??? If you have $650.00 you can come run 2 days on thunder road with me and see if your calculators are right. June 25-26, 2012

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: 340duster340] #1190304
03/04/12 09:17 PM
03/04/12 09:17 PM
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Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

What did the trans-am and NASCAR guys run bak in the day?




Nascar back in the day in a 4,000lb? cars at 200mph on a 31Deg banking for 500 miles in wheel to wheel competition with a 100,000 spectators behind a fence 20? feet away ran I believe 3/4" TR


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: jcc] #1190305
03/04/12 09:38 PM
03/04/12 09:38 PM
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jcc Offline
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repeat by mistake

Last edited by jcc; 03/05/12 12:32 PM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: jcc] #1190306
03/04/12 09:50 PM
03/04/12 09:50 PM
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

When I get home Sunday, I'll try to calculate how much constant arc flex must occur in say a typical 9/16" x 12"? TR assembly to give a whopping 1/16" toe variation.




Hope nobody panics, I left the calculator in the drawer, for a few reasons.

Because first there are a few assumptions, TR assembly per side is approx 12" long, the attached steering arm has a lever arm from the ball joint of approx 6", and the "typical" tire is say 26" dia, which means any change in TR assembly length has a 2+ multiplier effect at the point of measured toe. Additionally in my own mind I am not certain as to whether under normal cornering, is one TR assembly under compression and the other under tension or both compression or both tension? Assuming worse case of both under compression, early numbers indicate for a toe total change of 1/16", would require nearly a 1/4" bow in the TR assembly both sides. I can't see that happening. I also don't have a large library/data/real world experience to compare that 1/16" toe change worse case scenario to normal bump steer variations. These TR assemblies are not just flopping around, and would only bow under very high loads.

And at a bit of a stretch, read the this link, I think it has some merit, and easily also explains well, IMO, why caster increases steering effort, with all its benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_rudder


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: ThermoQuad] #1190307
03/04/12 11:34 PM
03/04/12 11:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
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340duster340 Offline
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NY NY
Quote:

I take it there is no further need to post what running road course laps with a street car equipped with the better hardware does to the handling and ride both on and off the track.
Starting from stock to the larger tie rods/sleeves to the solid sleeves...Is it possible that a 26 inch tall 10 inch wide tire puts bigger loads on the steering hardware?? You know the tire size that is optimum for these cars other than an a body, but a key piece of info that is overlooked constantly.

When a test passenger whom is not a car person can notice the difference in a car [while just driving around] from changes like tubular uca's a welded k frame, different tires it's obvious the stuff works.

It's great to ask questions to learn but to poke at subjects with no practical experience other than a calculator and race car experience is not nice. Race cars are not the old crap we drive.

Remember the goal - we are trying to build street cars that can run laps and drive like a new car. If you think this forum is for racing you are in the wrong place. How many of us can afford to go racing??? If you have $650.00 you can come run 2 days on thunder road with me and see if your calculators are right. June 25-26, 2012




i love the key board heroes on this site; did you had a bad day?

i actually am building a 66 dart for handling and if i ever get it done i would love to take you head to head. unfortunately its a ways a way so you will have to take this rusty pic as an open invite. i will push the car over the finish line if i have to; and then buy you diner because i am not a bitter person who dwells on the internet to taunt other car guys.

i was just asking for conversation sake. i guess thats not allowed in the hard core handling...er corners are best forum. what a joke.



1966 Dart GT ...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: NV69B7RR] #1190308
03/05/12 01:18 AM
03/05/12 01:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
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Rick_Ehrenberg Offline
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As I recall the math, it came out 22% less defection.

I wouldn't change TRE's (and sleeves) that are OK, but if you need to change 'em anyway...

You can also weld the slots in the smaller sleeves.

On the opposite end of the scale are the solid 11/16" ID sleeves w/ jam nuts (FFI, etc.)

Rick

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: Rick_Ehrenberg] #1190309
03/05/12 01:36 AM
03/05/12 01:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,161
Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline
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I run the larger TRE's myself in my 1971 Satellite Sebring, but I put them in at about the same time I upgraded the ENTIRE front end, so I have no distinct before/after experience to share. Basically, I did it as per Mopar Action's tech articles which have never let me down.

Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits? [Re: JF_Moparts] #1190310
03/05/12 04:15 AM
03/05/12 04:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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It may have been in one of the above posts, but here goes: Are the C body tie rod ends the same size as the A, B and E cars? If not, I guess to use the 11/16" units, you'd need 2 inners, 2 outers along with the sleeves? Is the taper in the center link and lower ball joints are the same degree as the other cars?

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