69 charger front end alignment problems!!
#1186883
02/26/12 11:23 PM
02/26/12 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389 kansas city, mo
rave_12000
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ok, so i got the story out of the NTB alignment tech...he couldn't get the passenger side to align, because the top would not come out far enough. they said that i put the wrong upper control arm on...and that the passenger side upper control arm was shorter than the driver side. so i get time to measure it and there is no difference between the 2? what the hell now? i was not aware of any difference in the lengths between e and b bodies. i think that the upper control arms were a matched pair from a 71 cuda. Are the passenger and driver side UCAs the same length? measuring from bushing shoulder to center of ball joint. my additional question...i think that i may have overtorqued the passenger upper ball joint. i seem to remember that i couldnet get it to click. there are much more threads showing on on the passenger side upper ball joint, than driver side. this might shorten the length of adjustment.
i am just about clueless to this. please help.
Last edited by rave_12000; 02/26/12 11:52 PM.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1186898
02/28/12 07:52 PM
02/28/12 07:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,935 WI
Dcuda69
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WI
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186899
02/28/12 08:00 PM
02/28/12 08:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012 indiana
mcmopars
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
indiana
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Quote:
Took it to Ford dealer an got guy that did my challenger. He played with it for about an hour and they called to let me know that they "think" they can get it to the tune of $225? I said ok because I just want to move on. Hope I am not wasting $?
I used slider type calipers and spindles likely from a 78 cordoba. I used it because it was under a 69 charger rt/se. Would these spindles throw the whole deal off? I asked why so complicated and they said it was just completely whack from the way I threw it together. I replaced or refurbished everything.
i would say your wasting your money.are you kidding me $225.00 for an alignment.wow $70.00 is what we pay here,and he does all the old muscle around here.perfect job every time.sorry you are having such hard luck in a simple front end alignment.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186902
02/28/12 09:46 PM
02/28/12 09:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012 indiana
mcmopars
super stock
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super stock
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indiana
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Quote:
The guy said he worked on it for 5 hours today...and couldn't get it. Says he couldn't get the passenger side out far enough, which is consistent with first shop. They seem to think that the shock tower has been pushed in. Now, how much can I gain with the moog offset uca bushings? Or should it go to the frame shop. I can post specs after I get the printout tomorrow. [/quo
man that sucks,$225.00 today,on top of the other $$ from the first shop.you really need to find out why it will not come into alignment,something is not right,bent or wrong part or something.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: Dcuda69]
#1186906
02/28/12 11:16 PM
02/28/12 11:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791 MI, usa
dvw
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Quote:
There shouldn't be any alignment "tech" confused with a classic Mopar car. Camber is camber, caster is caster and toe is toe. Sure they have their quirks(unable to achieve enough pos caster w/o bushings) but still! I've done many classics and rarely had issues making one go down the road! There are literally MILLIONS of GM 4x4 trucks using torsion bars and eccentric cams on the upper control arms!!! This ain't rocket science
I can't believe these guys. All 4WD S-10 and all full size 2wd and 4wd Chevy trucks have cams. Most 4wd have torsion bars as well. Gee, I'll bet know body's ever had to align one of them before. Bent is bent. It doesn't matter what brand it is. Plenty of guys in the Detroit area that could find the problem in 15 minutes. To bad your not close. I'd throw it on the hoist for nothing. Show me the specs. I'll bet I can come close to figuring out by looking at them alone. Doug
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1186907
02/29/12 12:00 AM
02/29/12 12:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677 Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
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Quote:
A factory service manual for any 68-70 B body will have a chassis diagram showing various measurements. THESE will help to determine if the frame rails are square and parralel. It may be stating the obvious, but with a few bent parts, it can be difficult to get within spec. Sorry, I didn't click on your link to see what you have done, but I'll guess that you are a "hands on" guy. You are probably capable of getting the car pretty close with a few basic tools. I set up the upper control arms as follows: Rotate the REAR alignment cam to allow the rear bushing close to the engine, and the FRONT bushing toward the fender. If the camber looks too negative, adjust the rear cam only. I hope this helps.
Exactly. It may be time to take it to a frame shop, but not if the alignment was closer before the rebuild. There are a number of things that I would look at if the car were in front of me, including strut rod length, control arm straightness, k-member, etc.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186909
02/29/12 12:36 AM
02/29/12 12:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,611 Pataskala, Ohio
GTX70sixpack
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Pataskala, Ohio
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Offset bushings is a band-aid to cover a real problem in your case. They are ment to be used to increase castor for high speed stability. There is no way someone can spend 5 hrs on a simple alignment and not know what is wrong. The 60s-70s Mopars take about 30 minutes to align including set up time and it couldn't take more than 15 minutes to find a problem.
You have one of 4 problems asuming you have the correct parts on it; frame rail/rails bent spindle bent lower control arm bushing beat out k-frame shifted to the right (which would probably have enlarged mouunting holes and a frame rail issue.
Once again you will have to find someone who knows what they are doing. I wish you the best of luck, I'm surrounded by idiots at my shop now, we can't find any good techs.
65 Belvedere II Station Wagon 69 Coronet R/T convertible 70 GTX 70'cuda 99 Dodge Diesel dually 4X4
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: GTX70sixpack]
#1186910
02/29/12 01:00 AM
02/29/12 01:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
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Striving for excellence
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Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
I'm surrounded by idiots at my shop now, we can't find any good techs.
Lets hope that they don't read THAT. Its hard to get help moving a fridge nowadays...
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186914
02/29/12 10:37 AM
02/29/12 10:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,611 Pataskala, Ohio
GTX70sixpack
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 1,611
Pataskala, Ohio
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The type of equipment does not matter, if your using bubble guages or the latest and greatest, all just reads where the wheel is. It is a myth that the new equipment is a bad thing for old cars, in fact it makes the job faster and easier. As far as finding someone old enough who knows, it's not age, very few people can wrap the head around how everything relates and what has to be moved to acheive a desired setting. The new machines will even tell you how thick of shims to put where in the old GM's. The thing that most don't get on Chryslers is both ecentrics affect camber and castor and they end up guessing and setting them many different times until they get a close setting.
I would say there are less good alignment techs than there are techs who can build transmissiions. I do everything, always have. The guys I work with take there own cars to shops for repairs claiming I don't know how to do that??? Yet they work at our shop all day????? Lost in space!!!!
65 Belvedere II Station Wagon 69 Coronet R/T convertible 70 GTX 70'cuda 99 Dodge Diesel dually 4X4
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186915
02/29/12 11:06 AM
02/29/12 11:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389 kansas city, mo
rave_12000
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here are the specs he got: LEFT camber: 0.3 caster: -0.9 toe 0.21
RIGHT camber: -2.4 caster:-4.4 toe 0.18
total toe 0.39 steer ahead 0.02
i handed him these specs for max street perf from allpar skosh chart: camber: -.75 to 1.0 caster 2.5 to 3.5 toe in 1/16 to 1/8"
He seemed to think that the shock tower needed to come straight out? again, could i solve this with the moog offset UCA bushings?
Last edited by rave_12000; 02/29/12 01:01 PM.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186916
02/29/12 11:35 AM
02/29/12 11:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389 kansas city, mo
rave_12000
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to me...it doesnt look like anyone has touched the front nut on the strut bar. is there some adjustment there? if you pull that forward a bit, then you would get more castor, correct?
Last edited by rave_12000; 02/29/12 03:13 PM.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: JohnH]
#1186918
02/29/12 03:24 PM
02/29/12 03:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389 kansas city, mo
rave_12000
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Quote:
The torsion bar adjustment is on the lower car are that goes straight up.. you are looking at the nut that holds the lower control arm foward in place.
Correct. Is there adjustment there?
I have an appointment with leroys frameworks in independence, mo. Sounds like they can bend what they need to and align for $210. ($60 for alignment). I wish I would have known about these guys before. Not enough time to get measurements today, so I will let them do it. I am thinking there is a bend somewhere.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186921
02/29/12 08:50 PM
02/29/12 08:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791 MI, usa
dvw
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Quote:
here are the specs he got: LEFT camber: 0.3 caster: -0.9 toe 0.21
RIGHT camber: -2.4 caster:-4.4 toe 0.18
total toe 0.39 steer ahead 0.02
i handed him these specs for max street perf from allpar skosh chart: camber: -.75 to 1.0 caster 2.5 to 3.5 toe in 1/16 to 1/8"
He seemed to think that the shock tower needed to come straight out? again, could i solve this with the moog offset UCA bushings?
First off an offset bushing in the left front forward position will get the left side very close to what you need. You may only get 1.5-2.0 degrees of positive caster and 0 camber which will work.. The right side is bent. With that much negative caster the lower ball joint is to far back. Either the lower arm,K-frame,spindle,or frame rail are pushed back. Quick and dirty measurement. How much distance between the rear of the front tire and the wheel well opening? Check the distance between the outer tie rod and the tire. Look for wrinkles in the frame rail behind the K-frame. Some one sharp with a tape measure will find it. Doug
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: dvw]
#1186922
03/01/12 12:44 AM
03/01/12 12:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389 kansas city, mo
rave_12000
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Quote:
Quote:
here are the specs he got: LEFT camber: 0.3 caster: -0.9 toe 0.21
RIGHT camber: -2.4 caster:-4.4 toe 0.18
total toe 0.39 steer ahead 0.02
i handed him these specs for max street perf from allpar skosh chart: camber: -.75 to 1.0 caster 2.5 to 3.5 toe in 1/16 to 1/8"
He seemed to think that the shock tower needed to come straight out? again, could i solve this with the moog offset UCA bushings?
First off an offset bushing in the left front forward position will get the left side very close to what you need. You may only get 1.5-2.0 degrees of positive caster and 0 camber which will work.. The right side is bent. With that much negative caster the lower ball joint is to far back. Either the lower arm,K-frame,spindle,or frame rail are pushed back. Quick and dirty measurement. How much distance between the rear of the front tire and the wheel well opening? Check the distance between the outer tie rod and the tire. Look for wrinkles in the frame rail behind the K-frame. Some one sharp with a tape measure will find it. Doug
thanks for the analysis doug.
i think there is a little more give on the driver side. he just roughed it in and really got hung up on the right side.
i think that the right rail is pushed back. it took a hit in the front that looked pretty much square to me. there is some buckling, but in front to just directly over the front of the k frame. i seriously doubt that there is a bent control arm or spindle. i gave them a serious workover when i restored them.
from brainstorming, i think that it might make since to loosen up the k frame and rear transmission mount and see how far we can pull it forward. to go further, maybe we could elongate the main k frame bolts and pull it evan further forward and suck it down with the impact wrench. this should help castor on each side. i guess offset bushings could be added if necessary. i do not think that the shock tower is bent...i just cannot see any indication on the inner fenders (i.e. bends, buckles, etc.).
i will know more tomorrow afternoon...
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186927
03/02/12 02:33 AM
03/02/12 02:33 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168 Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq
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Quote:
so, got the car to the frame shop today. they checked it out and found that the culprit is a bent lower control arm. this blows my mind when i think about how much time i spent working with the thing. i am going to go pick it up and swap the arm out tomorrow am. while i am at it, i got a pair of the moog offset uca bushings to put in. frame guy recommended this...but he suggests to put them BOTH offset outward?
Nice to hear it's a relatively easy fix - compared to, say, a bent frame rail.
I agree with the offset bushing install - both outward. You can always adjust the cam bolt inboard on the aft one to get the camber where you want, and adjust the front cam bolt, if necessary, to dial in the caster as necessary for the spec you want, or to match the other side...
I'm sure Rick will chime in, but you'll want as much caster as you can dial in, with the camber near zero or slightly negative - especially with the rear of the car up a bit like it is. Power steering will take the effort out...
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