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W9 valve train question? #1176973
02/12/12 11:59 AM
02/12/12 11:59 AM
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I'm using some W9 heads on a 59* R1 block (tall deck) the lifter bores have been brushed and prepped by Ray Barton. Phil Colman set the heads up to use them specifically for this block. The W9 heads obviously use an offset Rocker which I using a T&D rocker. I was told that with a 48* block to not use an offset lifter in combination with the offset rockers because the lifter will try and twist and come apart; is this the same for a 59* block?

If so what oil fed lifter would you suggest I use? My builder is WD with Crower so he likes to use them.

Jason

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176974
02/12/12 12:08 PM
02/12/12 12:08 PM
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Finland
mafo Offline
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I m afraid you got it backwards , 48* works well with offset lifters, 59* not so well


-65 Valiant,420", all motor,2700#, dot tires, 8,42 @ 160,2
Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: mafo] #1176975
02/12/12 12:11 PM
02/12/12 12:11 PM
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Quote:

I m afraid you got it backwards , 48* works well with offset lifters, 59* not so well




REally several members here told me that with offset rockers on their 48* block they cannot run offset lifters?

I kinda figured I would be in the same boat but just wanted some opinions from some people that were familiar with the W9 stuff on 59* blocks.

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176976
02/12/12 12:49 PM
02/12/12 12:49 PM
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This is probably becoming my most frequently asked question lately, since the marketplace seems to be flooded with W7/8/9 cylinder heads with MP discontinuing some of the W9s and a lot of used CNC ported heads popping up around the country.
The simple answer is YES. But as we all know, nothing when dealing with Small Block Mopars can be simple. This is going to be a complicated long, drawn out answer, but hopefully you will be able to follow along and I won't have to re-type this on a daily basis.
Let's begin with factory 340/360 blocks as the R3 is a slightly different animal in a few key areas. Any W7/8/9 head will bolt directly to a 10 bolt factory block. They all utilize the standard factory 10 bolt location. However some people get confused because they hear that many W7/8/9s have 18 head bolt holes. MOST do (but not all, some early W7s are 10 bolt only) Those extra 8 head bolt holes do NOT have to be utilized, you can just run the standard 10. However you will need to utilize a specific W7/8/9 longer head stud kit. Your basic factory, or W2/5 head stud kit won't work. As far as head gaskets go, just run your standard 10 bolt, Fel Pro #1008 composite or Cometic 10 bolt LA style Multi Layer Steel head gasket.

So bolting the heads to the block was not overly difficult. The next major obstacle becomes pushrod clearance. The W7/8/9 style heads generally have a much wider intake port runner tract than more normal 59 degree style heads. Generally, with a standard non offset lifter and a standard W7/8/9 rocker arm, you will have pushrod to intake runner wall interference. Certain rocker arms make this interference worse than others. Most Jesel brand rockers for instance will have less offset on the intake rocker than T&D rockers. Obviously the less offset, the more interference with the runner wall. As a general rule of thumb, standard off the shelf T&D rocker arms for W7/8/9 heads will have .550" offset on the intake rocker. All the ones sold through Mopar Performance have .550" offset. Now, T&D will custom make you any offset between .550" and .725", so if ordering new, you can get more offset. Jesel will also build custom rockers with increased offset, however most customers to save money want to use existing rockers that are floating around for sale, and most of these are not wild offset rockers. On everything I have tested to date, a .550" offset intake rocker WILL clear the inner runner wall on any CNC W7/8/9 head with a non offset lifter, but it is VERY close. The outer runner wall has to be notched VERY carefully by hand for clearance, and a 5/16" pushrod is all that will fit. A 3/8" pushrod will break through into the inner runner wall on most heads, and will require an epoxy fix.

To make the situation better, you can use an offset intake lifter. The problem here is that most lifter companies do not cater well to the Mopar crowd when it comes to offset lifters. In fact to the best of my knowledge, no Hydraulic or Flat tappet lifters exist in .904" Chrysler diameter. A couple companies offer an offset Solid Roller lifter, and generally speaking, when you are thinking of running a W7/8/9 head, you are probably already thinking of running a roller anyhow. One of the problems I ran into was the fact that the Comp Cams #892 "Super Roller" lifters don't fit 59 degree blocks? No way, no how. The rivet design on them will not clear the lifter valley area, even with intense grinding. You will most likely hit the water jacket if you try to make these rivets clear. The lifter I am currently recommending that everyone use is a Crane .903" Chevy Solid Roller lifter with a .210" intake offset pushrod cup, and then have Crane install Chrysler "V" Link bars on them. In a factory block, these will allow a 3/8" pushrod to be used. If you want to use a Hydraulic or Flat tappet cam, then I am recommending just use the standard non offset AMC style lifters, and a 5/16" Heavy wall pushrod like a Smith Brothers .080" wall Chrome Moly unit.

Now to make matters worse, W7/8/9 heads do not oil the rockers through the heads, like you are used to on LA style heads. W7/8/9s use pushrod oiling with individual mount rocker arms that are mounted to a large one piece rocker stand in pairs of rockers. The only other option to oil these types of rocker arms is to have spray bars TIG welded in your valve covers and spray bar oil the rockers. This works well with Jesel type rocker arms that spray the rocker arms as it is for oiling, but T&D rockers, which are a fully pressurized rocker body, need modifications to be spray bar oiled. My personal recommendation is to use spray bar oiling as a last resort. Pushrod oiling is the preferred method to oil W7/8/9 rocker arms.

Pushrod oiling rocker arms on a stock factory 59 degree LA engine block can get tricky. If you are using AMC style Hydraulic or Flat tappet lifters, it will work OK. Basically all you are doing is putting on a head/rocker combo that pushrod oils like a Magnum head conversion. The problem comes when you start running large lift solid roller camshafts. You can drop a solid roller lifter right in your factory LA block, and it will get some oil to the top end, but the engine generally will have excessively low oil pressure, and bearing damage will be imminent. There are two ways around this. One is to have your lifter bores bushed, with bronze bushings and run a small .035" oil feed hole in the bushings. The bushings job is basically to act as an oil restrictor, to restrict the amount of oil that is being bled off around the lifter. Also another thing you run into on factory blocks more so than on R3 race blocks, is that the lifter bores have 100,000+ miles on them in most cases, and the bores are usually not located properly in regards to angularity. So bushing the lifter bores corrects both of these problems. The downside? Cost. Having your factory lifter bores bushed is generally a $450-$600 machining operation, depending on the shop doing the work, and not every shop owns the proper BHJ fixture for bushing Small Block Chrysler lifter bores. However there is a second and less expensive way out of this predicament. You can install copper tubes in both the lifter oil galleys. Both passenger side AND drivers side. Then you can drill your .035" oil feed holes in the copper tube in each lifter bore, and the tube is what acts as your oil restrictor. Mopar Performance has sold the lifter bore tube and peen package for more than 20 years to block off all oil to the lifter bores. We are just putting a new twist on this old idea. With the tubes installed, your oil pressure will be back up to normal levels and your bearings will thank you for it.
As far as R, R1, R1A, R2, and R3 race blocks are concerned, the only differences that you need to be aware of, is the fact that the inner row of extra head bolts, and their bosses will need to be HEAVILY milled/ground off for link bar clearance on a solid roller lifter application. This is a time consuming and tedious task, that has to be done VERY carefully or you will break into the water jacket. Also, even the R3 block will still require you to either bush the lifter bores or tube the galleys to restrict the oil to the roller lifters, there is no way around this. The oil feed holes in the lifter bores are just too large out of the crate.

And there you have it, those are the basics of installing a W7/8/9 cylinder head on a 59 degree engine block. Now for the part most people don't think about/know about. MOST W7/8/9 heads have 15 degree valve angles. Stock LA heads utilize an 18 degree valve angle. This creates obvious problems when trying to just bolt a W7/8/9 on a standard 18 degree shortblock/piston combo. There is no easy way around this other than just having Custom 15 degree relief pistons made. Besides the fact, that W7/8/9s have wider valve spacing than most LA heads, and they usually utilize larger diameter valves as well. All of these factors necessitate that custom pistons be used under a W/7/8/9 head. The good news is, that with today's CNC technology, Custom pistons are not nearly as expensive as they were only 10 years ago. Today, most piston companies will do a fully custom piston combo for around $150-$200 extra. Well worth the cost, when you consider the added power gain of using a large "W" series cylinder head. For more info, and differences of W7/8/9 heads see the W7/8/9 section of the FAQs.

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: mafo] #1176977
02/12/12 12:50 PM
02/12/12 12:50 PM
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Ambridge, Pa.
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rickraw Offline
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48*, offset lifter- offset t&d's.

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176978
02/12/12 01:06 PM
02/12/12 01:06 PM
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Peru
cbarracuda Offline
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Quote:

To make the situation better, you can use an offset intake lifter. The problem here is that most lifter companies do not cater well to the Mopar crowd when it comes to offset lifters. In fact to the best of my knowledge, no Hydraulic or Flat tappet lifters exist in .904" Chrysler diameter.




How in the world could you run an offset flat toppet lifter? you know the lifter has to spin around the cam. The only way to run a offset lifter is in a roller cam

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: rickraw] #1176979
02/12/12 01:07 PM
02/12/12 01:07 PM
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1Fast340 Offline
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i seem to remember that the option to use offset lifters became a non option after it was discovered that the lifter linkbars wouldnt take it for very long in 59degre aplications.

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: 1Fast340] #1176980
02/12/12 01:24 PM
02/12/12 01:24 PM
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So correct me if I'm wrong but in my 59* solid roller application I would need at least .550 offset rockers and offset lifter (most likely chebby oil fed lifters using the chrysler V bar)? Also remember my lifer bores are brushed so I'm not sure I need oil fed unless I just want the added insurance.

Last edited by W9 Dart; 02/12/12 01:25 PM.
Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176981
02/12/12 01:29 PM
02/12/12 01:29 PM
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Quote:

So correct me if I'm wrong but in my 59* solid roller application I would need at least .550 offset rockers and offset lifter (most likely chebby oil fed lifters using the chrysler V bar)? Also remember my lifer bores are brushed so I'm not sure I need oil fed unless I just want the added insurance.




i dont think you want the offset lifters if you want it to live.
but you do want pushrod oiling since W9īs oil thru the lifters and pushrods.

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: 1Fast340] #1176982
02/12/12 01:37 PM
02/12/12 01:37 PM
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ok I have the T&D rockers and will be getting some custom push rods that will be oil through tech. I guess what Ryan at shady dell was saying is that you can use offset lifters in place of the offset rockers? so it;s either or not both?

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176983
02/12/12 01:53 PM
02/12/12 01:53 PM
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Peru
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offset lifter and offset rockers in a 48 block

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176984
02/12/12 01:56 PM
02/12/12 01:56 PM
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Finland
mafo Offline
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I wiped out a perfectly good roller cam in about 10 minutes on my x block w2 motor when I thought offset lifters would be a good idea...
but I had almost 1 inch offset on the rockers and 300 seat pressure, I bet it could be done but I wouldn't take that chance


-65 Valiant,420", all motor,2700#, dot tires, 8,42 @ 160,2
Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: mafo] #1176985
02/12/12 02:22 PM
02/12/12 02:22 PM
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What I am reading from Ryan is 5/16ths pushrods and no offset on the lifters for the 59 degree block.
With the cam you have selected , you shouldn't be over springing things and a stiff 5/16ths pushrod should be O.K.
But I am learning as I go with these things too.
If I knew then what I know now.

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: tubtar] #1176986
02/12/12 02:41 PM
02/12/12 02:41 PM
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Quote:

What I am reading from Ryan is 5/16ths pushrods and no offset on the lifters for the 59 degree block.
With the cam you have selected , you shouldn't be over springing things and a stiff 5/16ths pushrod should be O.K.
But I am learning as I go with these things too.
If I knew then what I know now.




Right the I'm thinking the push rod should be at least .080 thick?

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176987
02/12/12 02:47 PM
02/12/12 02:47 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

What I am reading from Ryan is 5/16ths pushrods and no offset on the lifters for the 59 degree block.
With the cam you have selected , you shouldn't be over springing things and a stiff 5/16ths pushrod should be O.K.
But I am learning as I go with these things too.
If I knew then what I know now.




Right the I'm thinking the push rod should be at least .080 thick?




I would go with a 5/16 at .118 wall if it where me.


70 duster full chassis super pro 416 CNC Indybrock heads 727 w/brake

best so far 1.212 60 6.219 in 1/8 at 110.88 9.768 at 137.81 1/4
Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: dusturbd340W5] #1176988
02/12/12 04:55 PM
02/12/12 04:55 PM
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Syracuse,NY
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An interesting pushrod story to share. I recently was working with another shop on a 700" R/M< Raptor headed Top Sportsman motor. This other shop buys all his Manton pushrods thru me. He asked me however to look at this one, as it had another brand pushrod in it. He asked me what would YOU do? I said .160 wall. The owner of the engine said no way, i dont want to change anything. It HAD .080 wall pushrods in it,. with these heads, you have 3 different length pushrods. He knew I had a relationship witht the manufacter of this other brand. Now keep in mind, these are over 11.400" long! Well, the shop takes my advice and says let me call Reher Morrison. They tell him, " yea, we run those .080 all the time" ! Go figure. I have seen, and have proven a drastic difference in other applications where a stiffer pushrod in this similar environment will definately pick up MPH. I was shocked they agreed to still use the .080 wall. So I call and order the pushrods, and the MANUFACTER tells me they dont make them in .080 anymore...lol...which tells you what?????...in the end, the customer, who is Mr Conservative, dont change it, I been running it that way before" kinda guy, has me get .080 wall custom made.


OK, on to YOUR deal, I am in agreement with disturbed, go .120 wall with a 5/16. Ultimately the bigger diameter pushrods column would be substantially stronger, but your in a situation where they may not be feasible, so definately get the additional strength from the thickness as best you can.


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WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #1176989
02/12/12 05:00 PM
02/12/12 05:00 PM
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W9 Dart Offline OP
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Quote:

An interesting pushrod story to share. I recently was working with another shop on a 700" R/M< Raptor headed Top Sportsman motor. This other shop buys all his Manton pushrods thru me. He asked me however to look at this one, as it had another brand pushrod in it. He asked me what would YOU do? I said .160 wall. The owner of the engine said no way, i dont want to change anything. It HAD .080 wall pushrods in it,. with these heads, you have 3 different length pushrods. He knew I had a relationship witht the manufacter of this other brand. Now keep in mind, these are over 10.700" long! Well, the shop takes my advice and says let me call Reher Morrison. They tell him, " yea, we run those .080 all the time" ! Go figure. I have seen, and have proven a drastic difference in other applications where a stiffer pushrod in this similar environment will definately pick up MPH. I was shocked they agreed to still use the .080 wall. So I call and order the pushrods, and the MANUFACTER tells me they dont make them in .080 anymore...lol...which tells you what?????...in the end, the customer, who is Mr Conservative, dont change it, I been running it that way before" kinda guy, has me get .080 wall custom made.


OK, on to YOUR deal, I am in agreement with disturbed, go .120 wall with a 5/16. Ultimately the bigger diameter pushrods column would be substantially stronger, but your in a situation where they may not be feasible, so definately get the additional strength from the thickness as best you can.




good info there.. how do these lifters look?http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=7962

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: W9 Dart] #1176990
02/12/12 08:32 PM
02/12/12 08:32 PM
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tubtar Offline
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Nice choice for lifters I'd say.
Shopping for roller lifters for a 59 degree block doesn't leave a ton of options , but these look like a good one.
With the push rod angles on them , I'd have to agree with the above.......stiffer is better.
.080 wall raised my eyebrows in Ryan's post , but he wrote this a while ago and conventional wisdom may have moved forward since.
And valve train weight is also a factor , but more so in an r.p.m.'s to the moon situation , which you shouldn't be in.

Re: W9 valve train question? [Re: tubtar] #1176991
02/12/12 08:36 PM
02/12/12 08:36 PM
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W9 Dart Offline OP
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Quote:

Nice choice for lifters I'd say.
Shopping for roller lifters for a 59 degree block doesn't leave a ton of options , but these look like a good one.
With the push rod angles on them , I'd have to agree with the above.......stiffer is better.
.080 wall raised my eyebrows in Ryan's post , but he wrote this a while ago and conventional wisdom may have moved forward since.
And valve train weight is also a factor , but more so in an r.p.m.'s to the moon situation , which you shouldn't be in.




Yeah I don't plan on spinning it past 7K with these turbos and this 4" crank.. so I like a little heavier push rod for strength.







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