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SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116668
09/07/08 04:44 PM
09/07/08 04:44 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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I had an earlier post in regards to the jetting in my six pack. I put 66 jets in center carb from 62 jets and adjusted the outside carbs on idle set the timing at 16 deg inital and it runs really good. The question I have now is I can set the rpm's all the way to 1500 rpm's and when I put it in gear it drops down to about 500 rpm's and need to give it a little gas for it to stay idling. It has 484 cam 30 over 915 heads.IT HAS A 3.5 POWER VALVE IN THE CENTER CARB So what's the deal with the thing
Thanks Moparts
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116670
09/08/08 06:41 PM
09/08/08 06:41 PM
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Anonymous
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Unregistered
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Anonymous
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WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I DISCONNECT THE VACUMN ADVANCE. I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME GUYS DON'T USE IT.
THANKS
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: ProStDodge]
#116673
09/10/08 12:12 AM
09/10/08 12:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
MoparDonny
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
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Quote:
Put your timing light on it and have someone drop it in gear for you, if the timing drops, the advance springs are too light.
If it stays at 16 all the way down to 7-800 rpm, my guess would be a lean condition. Richen Idle screws and check for vacuum leaks.
 That would be my advice too. Nowhere enough cam for those kind of problems. I have a 509 in my 440 with 15 degrees initial timing and my Rpm goes from -800 in park to 750 in gear.
Don.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116675
09/10/08 05:24 PM
09/10/08 05:24 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Unregistered
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WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO CHECK FOR A VACUMN LEAK. I'M GOING TO PUT IN A 2.5 POWER VALVE AND 68 JETTING AND TRY THAT. THEY SAY THAT IF IT GASES YOU THE POWER VALVE ISN'T STAYING SHUT AND IT SURE BURNS MY EYES WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?
THANKS
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116681
09/10/08 11:00 PM
09/10/08 11:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 836
lancaster, new york
macmic87
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 836
lancaster, new york
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this is a copy of some of the best advice i got in tuning a sixpack..............
I have to agree strongly with Mike(HPMike) I've been running six pack inductions for about 30 years now, sm blk, big blk, and even the custom 6 pak cast HEMI intake manifolds that I made for the 71 wingcars,.....I don't have anything but, sixpack cars,,,,,,,,I've rebuilt countless numbers of carbs, along with countless installations and tunings,....when there are troubles, it usally due to someone unfamilar with there tuning or functions, or attempts at trying to improve them,......which usally results in "problem" carbs, starting, stalling, flooding issuse!.....seeing your have "new" carbs/ set-uo,....I'd recommend you use a Carter street pump, don't use rubber hose, it's problems down the road!, use a factory style/ repro steel, or stainless steel fuel line kit,a good quality hi flow fuel filter, AFTER the pump!, not before!, you'll restrict the fuel flow, Factory style linkage, no junk progrssive/ mech linkage!, change out the brass side float screw on the fuel bowls (all 3 bowls) with Holleys clear sight plugs, this way you can see your float level, and no gas spills trying to adjust, their like $4 each,.....when setting the fuel level, I've found that it's best to bring it up to half the height of the clear sight plug, (can't do this with the brass sight screw!, unless you have X-ray vision, hence the need to install the clear plastic sights).....plus "if" you ever have a starting problem, just shaking the car side to side will slosh the fuel in the clear site, and you'll know wether or not you have fuel in the bowl,....after you have basically installed the set-up, and started the car, and set an acceptable idle after warm up, with the engine running, set the floats, start with the center carb, the slotted screw on top of the float adjuster, is just a lock screw, you can remove it for now, the 5/8" nut is the adjuster/needle seat nut, rotating it counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it, make small 1/2 turns let the car run a bit, check the fuel in the clear site window, half the window is ideal height, esp. in the front and rear carbs, when they dump in, you don't wanna lean the engine, which on a sixpack car, might "melt" a piston or two!....really!, been, there, done that!....after you set the fuel level in all 3 carbs, reset the idle on the center carb, by disconnecting the linkage on the end carbs, if your using an idle solenoid, make sure it's energized in the up position contacting the center carbs solenoid idle arm screw, set the desired idle, that keeps your car running, factory specs are a guide line, your cam, vacumm, etc, will affect your desired RPM range, after you establish this idle, this is what your car will run with, now de-energize the solenoid, using the idle srew located on the ceter carbs main throttle shaft, set the idle to a bare minimum running idle, this is were your throttle shaft will close down too when you shut off the car, and the idle solenoid de-energizes, if later you have shut down problems of the car desieling, (sputtering run on after shut down) keep lowering the idle screw on the center carb main shaft, untill this is condition is eliminated, the idle solenoid was added to maintain an idle, and allow the throttle blade to choke off the engine on shutdown if needed, when it de-energized, after your center card idle is set, now comes the fun, start the car, in idle, the front and rear carbs are still disconnected at their main throttle linkage, (important note: make sure no vacumm source is hooked up to the front and rear carbs when main linkage is disconnected, cause any reving you may do, might tip in a end carb! with vacumm!, and if you can't shut it down in time, you might lose an engine!....seen it done!)to properly set the fuel/ air mixture idle screws, start with the center carb, hook up a tach.......warmed up, good idle (low)....turn the fuel/ air mixture screws (2) located on each side of the center carb metering block, do one at a time, run it in slowly, until the engine begins to stumble, slowy back it out watching the tach needle, stop when you've obtained the highest rpm reading,....you can also do this with a vacumm gauge attached to MANIFOLD vacumm, I like to use both at the same time, ...repeat the process for the other side, when done, now re-do-it, again, just to confirm settings, now some of the end carbs, have their fuel idle screws "plugged" with lead, they are located in the base, in the front of the carb base plate, under the bowl, if plugged, dig out lead plug, most people think ones for fuel, ones for air , their not!, you'll adjust these screws just like the center carb, except you can't just use a vacumm/ tach gauge,....look into the top of the front end carb, you see 2 small projections in each bore on each side, just below the neck, these are the air bleeds, block off the outer bleed using your finger over the small tiny hole, with the motor running at idle (low), it should stumble or pick up in idle, when you block off, either outboard bleed, set the front carb first, pick a bore, left or right, with it's coresponding baseplate idle screw, block the bleed off with your finger,(make sure the carbs throttle plate is fully closed) do one side at a time, when you block the bleed, if the idle increases, too much fuel, remove your finger, turn the base screw on the side your blocking the bleed on, in, one turn, block the bleed again, listen for the idle, (you could use a tach gauge at this point), if it stumbles/ decreases, no fuel, back the base screw off a half turn, block the air bleed again see where the "idle" is,......keep adjusting in this fashion until there's no change in idle, no increase/ decrease, you now have the ideal fuel/ air ratio for the vacummm requirement on your motor, complete this for both sides of the front carb, shut off the motor, disconnect this carb remove it, re-install it in the rear,....install the rear carb, now in the front, adjust this carb like you did to the last one, after you hook up everything, now here's when most guys will balk at this move,....they'll insist the air/fuel mixture won't be 100% by moving the tuned front carb to the rear, well if your truly familiar with the sixpack set-up, you know getting to the rear carbs base screws is fustrating to say the least, unless your squeezeing every ounze of effeciency out of the motor, this technique is far better than leaving the factory setting/ lead plugs in, with is usally a lean set-up,,,,,,, after setting this relocated carb up, if you wish you can "play" trying to "tweak" the rear carb, this may include a round of removal the "tweak" the screws to obtain that last ounze of "tuning", I've yet to see a "tool", truly capable of fitting into the installed rear carbs "idle screws"......anybody?,
Well, when your "done" setting the air/ fuel "idle" mixtures on the end carbs, connect the end linkages, to the end carbs, do it with the idle solenoid energized, the rods are threaded were they join together on the center carb, they install on the end carbs with rod clips, there is a F/R or left?right handed clip, energize solenoid, do the front carb first, make sure the linkage is pulled far forward on the center carb secondary rail, thread the rod, in or out, until it fits nicely in the hole, then proceed to the rear, repeat this proceedure, now check the linkage for any binding, you should be able to chrack open (engine off!) the center car, WOT, and manually open both carbs by rotating the front carb throttle arm, close the center carb, check all linkage for binding, readjust if needed, now de-energize the idle solenoid, see if any bind is preventing the center carb from closing on the main throttle shaft idle screw, you may have to comprimise on some idle/ and or end carb linkage adjustments to have an ideal, functioning set-up, but once you take the time to do this, you'll appreciate your efforts!,....as far as altering the end carb secondary springs in the vacumm pods,.....I like a sixpack to come in quick,....you'll have to buy 2 sping kits, replace with the "white" springs if you want a quick responding set-up,....if you what a mid range set-up use the "yellow" springs,.....any thing in the brown or black range is worthless.,,,,,Hell I could write a book here, I probally have, if you have any other questions, PM me.......I wrote this for others, to utilize as well,.......
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: macmic87]
#116682
09/11/08 12:14 AM
09/11/08 12:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 953
Badham Co.
Y3 70 BEE
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 953
Badham Co.
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Quote:
this is a copy of some of the best advice i got in tuning a sixpack..............
I have to agree strongly with Mike(HPMike) I've been running six pack inductions for about 30 years now, sm blk, big blk, and even the custom 6 pak cast HEMI intake manifolds that I made for the 71 wingcars,.....I don't have anything but, sixpack cars,,,,,,,,I've rebuilt countless numbers of carbs, along with countless installations and tunings,....when there are troubles, it usally due to someone unfamilar with there tuning or functions, or attempts at trying to improve them,......which usally results in "problem" carbs, starting, stalling, flooding issuse!.....seeing your have "new" carbs/ set-uo,....I'd recommend you use a Carter street pump, don't use rubber hose, it's problems down the road!, use a factory style/ repro steel, or stainless steel fuel line kit,a good quality hi flow fuel filter, AFTER the pump!, not before!, you'll restrict the fuel flow, Factory style linkage, no junk progrssive/ mech linkage!, change out the brass side float screw on the fuel bowls (all 3 bowls) with Holleys clear sight plugs, this way you can see your float level, and no gas spills trying to adjust, their like $4 each,.....when setting the fuel level, I've found that it's best to bring it up to half the height of the clear sight plug, (can't do this with the brass sight screw!, unless you have X-ray vision, hence the need to install the clear plastic sights).....plus "if" you ever have a starting problem, just shaking the car side to side will slosh the fuel in the clear site, and you'll know wether or not you have fuel in the bowl,....after you have basically installed the set-up, and started the car, and set an acceptable idle after warm up, with the engine running, set the floats, start with the center carb, the slotted screw on top of the float adjuster, is just a lock screw, you can remove it for now, the 5/8" nut is the adjuster/needle seat nut, rotating it counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it, make small 1/2 turns let the car run a bit, check the fuel in the clear site window, half the window is ideal height, esp. in the front and rear carbs, when they dump in, you don't wanna lean the engine, which on a sixpack car, might "melt" a piston or two!....really!, been, there, done that!....after you set the fuel level in all 3 carbs, reset the idle on the center carb, by disconnecting the linkage on the end carbs, if your using an idle solenoid, make sure it's energized in the up position contacting the center carbs solenoid idle arm screw, set the desired idle, that keeps your car running, factory specs are a guide line, your cam, vacumm, etc, will affect your desired RPM range, after you establish this idle, this is what your car will run with, now de-energize the solenoid, using the idle srew located on the ceter carbs main throttle shaft, set the idle to a bare minimum running idle, this is were your throttle shaft will close down too when you shut off the car, and the idle solenoid de-energizes, if later you have shut down problems of the car desieling, (sputtering run on after shut down) keep lowering the idle screw on the center carb main shaft, untill this is condition is eliminated, the idle solenoid was added to maintain an idle, and allow the throttle blade to choke off the engine on shutdown if needed, when it de-energized, after your center card idle is set, now comes the fun, start the car, in idle, the front and rear carbs are still disconnected at their main throttle linkage, (important note: make sure no vacumm source is hooked up to the front and rear carbs when main linkage is disconnected, cause any reving you may do, might tip in a end carb! with vacumm!, and if you can't shut it down in time, you might lose an engine!....seen it done!)to properly set the fuel/ air mixture idle screws, start with the center carb, hook up a tach.......warmed up, good idle (low)....turn the fuel/ air mixture screws (2) located on each side of the center carb metering block, do one at a time, run it in slowly, until the engine begins to stumble, slowy back it out watching the tach needle, stop when you've obtained the highest rpm reading,....you can also do this with a vacumm gauge attached to MANIFOLD vacumm, I like to use both at the same time, ...repeat the process for the other side, when done, now re-do-it, again, just to confirm settings, now some of the end carbs, have their fuel idle screws "plugged" with lead, they are located in the base, in the front of the carb base plate, under the bowl, if plugged, dig out lead plug, most people think ones for fuel, ones for air , their not!, you'll adjust these screws just like the center carb, except you can't just use a vacumm/ tach gauge,....look into the top of the front end carb, you see 2 small projections in each bore on each side, just below the neck, these are the air bleeds, block off the outer bleed using your finger over the small tiny hole, with the motor running at idle (low), it should stumble or pick up in idle, when you block off, either outboard bleed, set the front carb first, pick a bore, left or right, with it's coresponding baseplate idle screw, block the bleed off with your finger,(make sure the carbs throttle plate is fully closed) do one side at a time, when you block the bleed, if the idle increases, too much fuel, remove your finger, turn the base screw on the side your blocking the bleed on, in, one turn, block the bleed again, listen for the idle, (you could use a tach gauge at this point), if it stumbles/ decreases, no fuel, back the base screw off a half turn, block the air bleed again see where the "idle" is,......keep adjusting in this fashion until there's no change in idle, no increase/ decrease, you now have the ideal fuel/ air ratio for the vacummm requirement on your motor, complete this for both sides of the front carb, shut off the motor, disconnect this carb remove it, re-install it in the rear,....install the rear carb, now in the front, adjust this carb like you did to the last one, after you hook up everything, now here's when most guys will balk at this move,....they'll insist the air/fuel mixture won't be 100% by moving the tuned front carb to the rear, well if your truly familiar with the sixpack set-up, you know getting to the rear carbs base screws is fustrating to say the least, unless your squeezeing every ounze of effeciency out of the motor, this technique is far better than leaving the factory setting/ lead plugs in, with is usally a lean set-up,,,,,,, after setting this relocated carb up, if you wish you can "play" trying to "tweak" the rear carb, this may include a round of removal the "tweak" the screws to obtain that last ounze of "tuning", I've yet to see a "tool", truly capable of fitting into the installed rear carbs "idle screws"......anybody?,
Well, when your "done" setting the air/ fuel "idle" mixtures on the end carbs, connect the end linkages, to the end carbs, do it with the idle solenoid energized, the rods are threaded were they join together on the center carb, they install on the end carbs with rod clips, there is a F/R or left?right handed clip, energize solenoid, do the front carb first, make sure the linkage is pulled far forward on the center carb secondary rail, thread the rod, in or out, until it fits nicely in the hole, then proceed to the rear, repeat this proceedure, now check the linkage for any binding, you should be able to chrack open (engine off!) the center car, WOT, and manually open both carbs by rotating the front carb throttle arm, close the center carb, check all linkage for binding, readjust if needed, now de-energize the idle solenoid, see if any bind is preventing the center carb from closing on the main throttle shaft idle screw, you may have to comprimise on some idle/ and or end carb linkage adjustments to have an ideal, functioning set-up, but once you take the time to do this, you'll appreciate your efforts!,....as far as altering the end carb secondary springs in the vacumm pods,.....I like a sixpack to come in quick,....you'll have to buy 2 sping kits, replace with the "white" springs if you want a quick responding set-up,....if you what a mid range set-up use the "yellow" springs,.....any thing in the brown or black range is worthless.,,,,,Hell I could write a book here, I probally have, if you have any other questions, PM me.......I wrote this for others, to utilize as well,.......
I think if you remove the float adjustment lock screw and try to adjust the float when the car is running you will have quite a flammable mess.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: macmic87]
#116685
09/11/08 07:57 AM
09/11/08 07:57 AM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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black plugs is a good indication of a blown PV. I have backfired many times and never have I blown one (i have the adpter for my mityvac that tests them).
You could buy a PV plug and install it and if its the same sympton, its nt a blown pv.
that being said, my six pack does (and always has burned my eyes). they are hard to tune when you get a big cam in there (over 484/282 or 240 at .050)
What you really need to do is set the idle where it will run then remove the carb and look at how far open the throttle is. its probably open too far causing you to run on the main circuit because the transfer slot is open too far.
upping the timing to 16-20 dbtdc will speed up the idle so you can close down the throttle and get back to the idle circuit.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116686
09/11/08 11:47 AM
09/11/08 11:47 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Tuning a 6bbl is no worse than any otehr carb. If the engine is healthy and parts matched (meaning a decent static ratio and the cam degreed in properly) they are really, really easy. The 6bbls I've owned and tuned all idle at around 750, noen thunk into gear, they dont burn well at idle because of the overlap, but there's no crud on the back end of the cars like most I've seen. There's no magic to a 6bbl. It's just the primary side of a 650 carb. I agree with the timing issues, and that timing ALWAYS gets set first. Then carb adjustments.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: larry4406]
#116687
09/11/08 02:43 PM
09/11/08 02:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 953
Badham Co.
Y3 70 BEE
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 953
Badham Co.
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Quote:
Y3 70 Bee - the instructions say to install clear sight plugs so the level can be adjusted half way up the port.
He says to remove the lock screw for the float adjustment on top of the needle and seat and run the car. If you do that fuel will come out of the top where the lock screw was. I usually just back off the screw a bit and turn the 5/8 nut some gas will come out a bit, and watch those gaskets on the adjusting nut they dont last long. So what does that have to do with the clear sight glass?
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: RATTRAP]
#116689
09/12/08 08:12 AM
09/12/08 08:12 AM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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theyre in the baseplates and I'd use a jewelers screwdriver to adjust them- not a flattened coathanger. and they break easy!
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116693
09/12/08 03:14 PM
09/12/08 03:14 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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OK HERE'S THE LATEST. SET ALL SETTINGS ON ALL 3 CARBS AND ALSO CHECKED FOR VACUMN LEAKS AND THERE WERE NONE. CAR SEEMS TO IDLE DECENT BUT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT WHEN IDLING AT SAY 850 RPM'S THEN WHEN I REV IT THE THING MIGHT SAY IDLING AT 1100 RPM'S. I CHECKED TO MAKE SURE THE OUTBOARDS ARE CLOSED AND ALL THE LINKAGE IS WORKING FINE AND THERE IS NOTHING HANGING UP PLUS HAVE A STRONG RETURN SPRING. COULD THIS BE A TIMING ADVANCE PROBEM IN THE DIST. AND THATS WAY IT DROPS SO MANY RPM'S WHEN I PULL IT IN GEAR AND THE RPM VARIATION ?
thanks
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116694
09/12/08 03:21 PM
09/12/08 03:21 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Quote:
OK HERE'S THE LATEST. SET ALL SETTINGS ON ALL 3 CARBS AND ALSO CHECKED FOR VACUMN LEAKS AND THERE WERE NONE. CAR SEEMS TO IDLE DECENT BUT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT WHEN IDLING AT SAY 850 RPM'S THEN WHEN I REV IT THE THING MIGHT SAY IDLING AT 1100 RPM'S. I CHECKED TO MAKE SURE THE OUTBOARDS ARE CLOSED AND ALL THE LINKAGE IS WORKING FINE AND THERE IS NOTHING HANGING UP PLUS HAVE A STRONG RETURN SPRING. COULD THIS BE A TIMING ADVANCE PROBEM IN THE DIST. AND THATS WAY IT DROPS SO MANY RPM'S WHEN I PULL IT IN GEAR AND THE RPM VARIATION ?
thanks
im fighting that too. once I figure it out, i'll let you know. maybe I'll play with it this weekend if the hurricane doesnt drown me
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116695
09/12/08 03:25 PM
09/12/08 03:25 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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forgot to say it has a mopar performance dist.
thanks again
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116696
09/12/08 03:43 PM
09/12/08 03:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Hey Cucu how far are you from the coast.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: RapidRobert]
#116697
09/12/08 04:10 PM
09/12/08 04:10 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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pretty far in. im not worried. we'll just get lots of rain and some wind.
btw, I got my collar in for the distributor shaft today. that was you with the timing jump fix right?
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116698
09/12/08 05:30 PM
09/12/08 05:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
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Quote:
OK HERE'S THE LATEST. SET ALL SETTINGS ON ALL 3 CARBS AND ALSO CHECKED FOR VACUMN LEAKS AND THERE WERE NONE. CAR SEEMS TO IDLE DECENT BUT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT WHEN IDLING AT SAY 850 RPM'S THEN WHEN I REV IT THE THING MIGHT SAY IDLING AT 1100 RPM'S. I CHECKED TO MAKE SURE THE OUTBOARDS ARE CLOSED AND ALL THE LINKAGE IS WORKING FINE AND THERE IS NOTHING HANGING UP PLUS HAVE A STRONG RETURN SPRING. COULD THIS BE A TIMING ADVANCE PROBEM IN THE DIST. AND THATS WAY IT DROPS SO MANY RPM'S WHEN I PULL IT IN GEAR AND THE RPM VARIATION ?
That is caused by your advance springs in the distributor.
Get one lighter spring and put it in....that may let the advance stay up higher even at a low 800-900 rpm.
I had to fiddle around with the springs because of the same high 13-1400 occasional idle. Using 2 real light advance springs keeps my timing well advanced at 30* or higher from 800 rpm up, with full 35* coming in at 1500 rpm.
Runs real nice even with the haywire XE295HL cam. 
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: RapidRobert]
#116700
09/12/08 07:22 PM
09/12/08 07:22 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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WOULDN'T YOU NEED STRONGER ONES SO IT DOESN'T ADVANCE AS QUICK AND HOW DO YOU CHANGE THEM
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116701
09/12/08 07:34 PM
09/12/08 07:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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You need the springs to be stout enough to keep the weights retracted at your idle rpm. Here's a chart that may help.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116702
09/12/08 07:38 PM
09/12/08 07:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
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I suppose that would work too....just that you'd then have a real slow advance 'cause of the spring tensions. My problem was that with the raspy XE295 cam, I needed the high initial (18*) and very quick curve in order for the engine to not stumble. Beleive me...me and my son spent HOURS.....or should I say DAYS....setting up the advance to get that SOB to idle. It DOES NOT do it's "sometimes high idle" thing anymore, and it will idle at 800 rpm quite nicely (well...NICELY for that nutso of a cam).  If you have any kind of lumpy cam in there, I would tend to think you would have to go looser like I did. All this info was originally fed to me thru guys here on the forum. I did what they said...and it worked. What else can I say?? 
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: superwrench]
#116703
09/12/08 07:52 PM
09/12/08 07:52 PM
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Anonymous
OP
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HOW HARD IS IT TO CHANGE THE SPRING
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116705
09/12/08 08:51 PM
09/12/08 08:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
MoparDonny
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Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
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Quote:
HOW HARD IS IT TO CHANGE THE SPRING
To change the springs you have to take the screws out on the side of the distributor, gently pry the reluctor off the shaft and pull the plate out.
Mark the reluctor in relation to the shaft first with some paint or a pen. We had to do a bunch of welding on the slots to close them up for "superwrench". His car was WAY better after just welding the slots a bunch but it works kind of like a locked distributor curve with a built in spark retard for starting. Light spring that gives just enough tension to pull the weights back below 600-800 rpm. His car idles around 900 -1000 when racing so it works great for him and super responsive.
I'm not really sold on it being a timing thing though for you, unless you have the vac advance hooked up and it's on the wrong nipple.
Did I miss it or did you say what Cam was in your car and how much vacuum it makes? Usually what you describe is from too much of the advance port slot showing under the throttle blades and when the idle goes up it makes the advance come up and creates a higher idle again.
Got to go make my kid some supper, I'll check back later to see how it's going for you.
Don.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116706
09/12/08 09:35 PM
09/12/08 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
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I had the exact same problem that you are describing in your first post. I followed all the tips that people have posted here and was able to get the car to run absolutely great with the exception that when I dropped it in gear the idle drop was several hundred rpm and the car was very unstable until I was rolling.
Larry Shepard came out with a new book on tuning and working on Mopar six pack motors. I got the book and it contained the best advise I have ever received. He said that for automatics you should richen the outboard carb adjusting screws almost one whole turn. I did it about a half a turn (from the 3/4 they were at) and it made a HUGE difference. I had to lean my center carb a bit, but now it idles in park or drive at about 800 rpm with very little difference between in gear or not. Still runs very well. A little rich, I need to tweak it a bit, but a very large difference. Drives great now!
Mine is a 440, stock motor and cam, Mopar dist set at 38 at full advance. Jets at 64 in the center carb
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: Kowal]
#116707
09/12/08 10:21 PM
09/12/08 10:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
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I should clarify that 800 rpm idle....that is IN gear....the engine actually free idles at around 1200 rpm...but it DOES NOT try to flare up over that, and I don't have to blirp the throttle to get it to idle at 1200 rpm...it goes there the instant i take it out of gear. Of course I have a real loose convertor too, so there is no way that you can even feel the car drop into gear. You'll get it somehow....all I'm saying is it could be a long drawn out affair...but when it works...you'll be gratified!!! Perseverance is the key. 
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: superwrench]
#116708
09/13/08 07:36 AM
09/13/08 07:36 AM
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Anonymous
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IT HAS THE MOPAR 484 LIFT CAM IN IT WITH 10 LBS VACUMN WITH 3.5 POWER VALVE. I DON'T KNOW AFTER THESE RESPONSES IF I SHOULD GO AFTER TIMING ADVANCE OR CARBS. I HAVE THE VACUMN OF OF THE DIST. NOW.THE CARBS SEEM PRETTY CLOSE
THANKS MOPARTS
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: sogtx]
#116712
09/13/08 10:07 PM
09/13/08 10:07 PM
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Anonymous
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that cam has very little vacuum at idle. i ran the 3.5 pv with that cam in a sb
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116713
09/14/08 07:09 AM
09/14/08 07:09 AM
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Anonymous
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SO YOU THINK A 5.0 POWER VALVE WOULD HELP INSTEAD OF THE 3.5 I HAVE IN NOW SINCE I HAVE 10 LBS VACUMN
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: 70sixpkrt]
#116717
09/14/08 11:43 PM
09/14/08 11:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 836
lancaster, new york
macmic87
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 836
lancaster, new york
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you'll adjust these screws just like the center carb, except you can't just use a vacumm/ tach gauge,....look into the top of the front end carb, you see 2 small projections in each bore on each side, just below the neck, these are the air bleeds, block off the outer bleed using your finger over the small tiny hole, with the motor running at idle (low), it should stumble or pick up in idle, when you block off, either outboard bleed, set the front carb first, pick a bore, left or right, with it's coresponding baseplate idle screw, block the bleed off with your finger,(make sure the carbs throttle plate is fully closed) do one side at a time, when you block the bleed, if the idle increases, too much fuel, remove your finger, turn the base screw on the side your blocking the bleed on, in, one turn, block the bleed again, listen for the idle, (you could use a tach gauge at this point), if it stumbles/ decreases, no fuel, back the base screw off a half turn, block the air bleed again see where the "idle" is,......keep adjusting in this fashion until there's no change in idle, no increase/ decrease, you now have the ideal fuel/ air ratio for the vacummm requirement on your motor this really does work
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: RATTRAP]
#116721
09/15/08 08:56 PM
09/15/08 08:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
MoparDonny
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Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
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Quote:
I thought 1 1/2 turns was the factory setting.
What are your results on 2 1/2 turns out?
1-1/2 turns probably is the factory setting but a larger cam with poor vacuum is NOT a factory setting. I just know by my experience with Holleys and SIX PAK's that with a cam such as a MP280 to a MP509 or anything bigger likely won't run worth beans with 1.5 to 2.5 turns. I could go check my Holley right now and I bet it's at 3 turns or so. I 'll check what we have my Dad's SIX PAK set at too, that may take a day or so though.
I cured most of my buddy's driving and starting issues on his 460 ford by giving it a little timing and an extra turn out on the idle mix screws.
Don.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: MoparDonny]
#116725
10/01/08 09:14 AM
10/01/08 09:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
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This has been a great string of info.
Let me see if I can really get everyone upset by seeing if I can summarize what I have learned, heard, etc. from this and the other posts.
For a stock 440 or one with a moderate cam:
16 to 18 initial timing, 36 to 38 full advance. The new Mopar electronic dist. can be modified for total advance using the Mallory (MAA-29014) plastic gauge kit.
Distributor springs should kick in about 100 rpm higher than what the car is idling at and advance fully in place no later than 2500 rpm. (per the Mallory instructions on the idle setting)
Power Valve shoud be set at 1/2 the vacuum reading you get on the center carb, with the car in neutral.
Outboard carbs, for an automatic, should have their idle mixture screws opened over one turn, maybe one and a quarter to one and a half (per Larry Shepard's tuning book on the outside number). Sticks seem to work at 3/4 to one turn. Use the finger trick on the outboard carbs once close to set. (By the way, I can adjust my rear outboard carb on the car by using a very long, thin, screwdriver that I got at Ace and by my having replaced the mixture screws with new Holley screws, which stick out further on the baseplate. I go at each at an angle and can just get each one)
Center carb idle mixture is adjusted using a vacuum gauge, going for highest vacuum, with the car in gear. Vacuum seems to vary wildly by car but 10 to 14 seems to be the range. 10 being low and should be investigated for leaks and other set up issues unless the cam is large.
Carb jets on the center carb should probably be at 64 or maybe higher. The 62 that is stock is too lean.
Vacuum advance usage on the dist. is trial and error as you drive.
OK...what did I miss or get wrong?
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: Kowal]
#116726
10/01/08 09:29 AM
10/01/08 09:29 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 907
Mississauga, Canada
KARLN
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 907
Mississauga, Canada
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sorry to highjack but is 16-18 degrees timing also recommended for a SB with a 6 pack?
B5 Challenger T/A
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: KARLN]
#116727
10/01/08 05:23 PM
10/01/08 05:23 PM
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If you go back and find some of 62MAXWGN's post on 6pks you will probably find your answers.He has probably forgotten more than most of us know about how to make them work and fix existing problems.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: Y3 70 BEE]
#116728
10/01/08 10:50 PM
10/01/08 10:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Quote:
Y3 70 Bee - the instructions say to install clear sight plugs so the level can be adjusted half way up the port.
He says to remove the lock screw for the float adjustment on top of the needle and seat and run the car. If you do that fuel will come out of the top where the lock screw was. I usually just back off the screw a bit and turn the 5/8 nut some gas will come out a bit, and watch those gaskets on the adjusting nut they dont last long. So what does that have to do with the clear sight glass?
Sorry Bob,.....I mistakingly said to remove the "lock screw", rather than to just loosen the lock screw......when I wrote that post,.....it was late, I was tired, and simply trying to help a member with some info.....and you know how it goes,...one thing leads to another,...to another,...and before you know it,...your writing a small mini-novel ......but post like these help bring out everyones experience and helpful insights
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: RATTRAP]
#116729
10/02/08 08:12 AM
10/02/08 08:12 AM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
pic1
hey ratrap, what jets are you running in those promax plates? Promax suggested 84's but I thought I read that many people are running 78's or 80's in their outboards
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#116731
10/02/08 10:00 AM
10/02/08 10:00 AM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Not sure why Promax would recommend .084 when stock is .089 front,and .086 rear diaphragm side /.093 linkage side.Also does the Promax plate heve a provision for a removable/adjustable idle feed restriction ?
this for a 340 6bbl (stroked to 416).
and yes, the plate does have adjustable idle feed restrictions but I cant recall what size they are (.031 comes to mind but Im not sure. that could have been the main well restrictions- I will look tonight)
what would you recommend for a 416 with a solid cam 265/276 lift, 245/250 at .050???
I did find the ol 6 pack tuning tips that says:
340-6 bbl. on Aluminum Edelbrock
A "HOT" Manifold with Air Cleaner
Throttle Side Diaphragm Side
Front Carburetor PVCR .086 .073
Center Carburetor Jet #63 #63
PVCR .046 .046
Rear Carburetor PVCR .086 .073
Above must have a nozzle #Rl738 installed in the diaphragm side of both the front and rear carburetors.
A "COLD" Manifold with Air Cleaner
Throttle Side Diaphragm Side
Front Carburetor PVCR .086 .073
Center Carburetor Jet #64 #64
PVCR .046 .046
Rear Carburetor PVCR .086 .073
are the PVCR's listed about the same as the jet sizes I'd be using?
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116732
10/02/08 10:15 AM
10/02/08 10:15 AM
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Anonymous
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after more searching I found this article on the 440 six pack http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0801_mopar_six_pack_tuning/index.htmlwhere it says Quote:
As expected, when the car was hooked up to the O2 meter, it showed the carburetors were running a little lean and some adjustments needed to be made. The center carburetor was not that far off-just one size up, from a 65 jet size to a 66. But the outboard carburetors jumped from a staggered 78/82 configuration to 84s at all four locations. Now when you mash the pedal on this big-block, it shows no signs of timidity. It just goes!
so thats probably where they got it from
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116733
10/02/08 11:53 PM
10/02/08 11:53 PM
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Anonymous
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I measured my metering plates for my outboards (340 6 bbl) and got .072 for the passenger side and .084 for the drivers side. those equals a #69 and #76 jets.
since its stroked to 416 AND the 440 6bbls are .089 (a #79 jet) to .093 (#82 jet)front to back, I think 84's might be a good place to start.
anyone know if staggering the jets is worth it. the factory had the staggered and the mopar tuning tips stagger them as well.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116734
10/04/08 10:41 AM
10/04/08 10:41 AM
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Anonymous
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116736
10/05/08 01:21 PM
10/05/08 01:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 511
Jasper, Indiana
fastnos
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 511
Jasper, Indiana
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on a side note, If anyone is looking for a smaller air cleaner there is one listed on ebag now. It clears the underhood frames on A-bodies and show a lot more of your 6-packs and intake. Mopar Tri Power Mr Norm 440 Air Cleaner #300263972064 Buy-it-now $400 Last spring I bought mine for $250+shipping and no air filter. Saw a few around at car swap/shows for $250-350 this summer. This is the kind that Mr. Norm put on 340 GS Demons (not 440, if I'm reading the Ebag ad right.) 
A True Hybrid: Burns Gas AND Rubber!
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: RATTRAP]
#116737
10/07/08 05:36 PM
10/07/08 05:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
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Throttle plates drilling.
All six, just the center? How big did you go?
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: RATTRAP]
#116739
10/07/08 09:06 PM
10/07/08 09:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
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Anyone else drilling out throttle plates on a vacuum set up?
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: Kowal]
#116740
10/08/08 08:18 AM
10/08/08 08:18 AM
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Anonymous
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ive always heard it just the center carb. the outboards already have a small hole in them.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#116742
10/08/08 09:22 AM
10/08/08 09:22 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
Mopar-Al
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
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Quote:
Well,72 replys to this thread.Ever wonder why this stuff worked when it was new?  Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. 
I was just asking myself the same thing when I read this. My 6pk is a 70 model. I have zero problems with it. No bogs, no idle problems. I rebuilt it myself. It wasnt' abused before I got it and was complete. I run a slightly bigger cam...275 hl ex and the stock 70 compression.
Maybe something is being over looked.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: Mopar-Al]
#116743
10/08/08 10:56 AM
10/08/08 10:56 AM
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Anonymous
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with a slightly bigger cam there usually no issues.
my cam is 250 duraration at .050 and .575 lift. vacuum is in the dumpers measuring about 7-8" in gear. does that explain why they need some massaging?
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116744
10/08/08 10:27 PM
10/08/08 10:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
MoparDonny
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,760
Port Alberni, British Columbia
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Quote:
with a slightly bigger cam there usually no issues.
my cam is 250 duraration at .050 and 275 lift. vacuum is in the dumpers measuring about 7-8" in gear. does that explain why they need some massaging?
Relatively stock engines will likely be fine, depends what you see as fine though. My Dad had zero problems with his 6pak till the 509 cam went into the 440. even then it wasn't too bad. The real challenge to tuning came with the 496 stroker and a 251 @ .050 and .570 lift cam.
I have drilled out the primary butterflies to 1/8 inch and given him about 18 degrees initial and 34 total timing but the timing is all in at 1000 RPM or a tad less. I believe he has a 55 powervalve with jets being 64 or 66 middle carb, and about 84's in the ends. Can't remember if he stagered them or notThe other thing was a 50cc acc pump and put the pump cam in the #2 position to move more shot into the 1/2 to 3/4 throttle range. We have tried all the springs Holley has for the secondaries but have ended up running Purples (one step heavier than stock IIRC) which has resulted in best times so far but that is in a 3700 lb Challenger and driver with 4.10's and 29 inch tires. We are still playing with it but right now it seems to work Excellent.
P.S. , If "Cab Burge" gives you advice, listen to him, he knows these carbs VERY well.
Don.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: MoparDonny]
#116745
10/09/08 10:19 AM
10/09/08 10:19 AM
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Anonymous
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fixed my typo. supposed to be .575 lift and not 275
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: jcastle1]
#116746
10/20/08 08:00 AM
10/20/08 08:00 AM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Sorry for hi-jacking this thread,but I'm going thru a similar problem with my six bbl setup.
I have 9" vacuum and after reading this thread thought maybe I would change power valve because car don't want to idle,it also will water your eyes.The idle seems to flux around after being fully warmed up-either goes from 650rpm to 1300 rpm.So I changed to a 4.5 PV last nite (1/2 vacuum).Idle seems much improved now.still waters eyes.If I cover center carb for a sec.with hand and let go ,it will rise high in rpm.Is that normal?sprayed carb cleaner all around,can't find a leak.Jets are 70's in center.Should I jet down by 2?Should I buy new valley pan?
70's in the center seem too big. the common jet size is 64 for stockers and possibly 66's for big cams. I have 66's in mine and they maybe a tad big.
Im still sorting thru it all and need to make a few passes and check the plugs for sure.
what I would really want is a wideband O2 sensor....
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#116748
10/20/08 11:49 AM
10/20/08 11:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Quote:
Everyone with "6 pk problems"
Please would you advance the intial timing to 18 degrees and don't forget the distributor curve rework. And then would you open the outboard adj mixture screws at least 1 turn out?
You have to make these adjustments or it will not run right. We are not kidding just go do it and then finish the rest. This is not k mart, it will not run out of the box 
I dont even have to read the rest of the post...lol... Thanks Tom
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: moper]
#116749
10/20/08 06:13 PM
10/20/08 06:13 PM
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Anonymous
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WELL I TRIED THE 18 DEG AND ALL THE REST BUT THEN I HAD NO IDLE ADJ ON THE CENTER CARB AND THE THING REALLY PINGED EVEN WITH 100 OCT. GAS ANY OTHER INPUT
THANKS MOPARTS
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116750
10/20/08 09:05 PM
10/20/08 09:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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rr, please take off the caps lock on your PC... It makes it easier to read. The reason it pinged is you had too much total advance. You can't just dial in initial and expect things to magically work. It's all a system.
So, you need to limit the mechanical advance to less than 20. Tell me what kind of distributor you have and we can fix that. Once the timing curve is properly set, the jetting can be addressed because it's probably lean as heck and that makes it ping too.
If the carb does not respond, there is something interfering, so try this... disconnect the throttle cable from the carb, then try it again. Your idle speed is set witht he center carb alone. But it's fairly common for me to find issues with the cable either being too short because of where its clamped and the carb is held open, or too long because of where its clamped and you dont get full throttle. So check to make sure the throttle can close all the way.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
[Re: moper]
#116751
10/21/08 05:26 PM
10/21/08 05:26 PM
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Anonymous
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Dave
Here are my specs. 484 mopar cam 30 over 915 heads with mopar performance dist. with 66 jets in center carb. Vacumn is 10 on idle on manifold port and 5.5 power valve. What do I do to fix it?
thanks
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Re: SIX PACK WON'T IDLE
#116752
10/22/08 05:38 PM
10/22/08 05:38 PM
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Anonymous
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Hey moper where are you ?
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has a lot of good info!! it helped me on a bird w/ a 440+6 w/ a 509 cam[not my idea] and i got it to idle nice,good luck.
![4738648-2008.07.06%20Pro,%20Bike,%20Street%20010[1].jpg](/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/14518/filename/4738648-2008.07.06%20Pro,%20Bike,%20Street%20010[1].jpg){kind=link}