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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: Crazy73] #1182
08/08/03 10:25 AM
08/08/03 10:25 AM
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CT - just outside Hartford
Crazy73 Offline OP
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What damper would I need to use for external balance?

Or spend the $400 for the mallory ?


Pete
-1968 Barracuda 4spd 383-6pk
Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: patrick] #1183
08/08/03 10:33 AM
08/08/03 10:33 AM
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Houston, Texas
TheOtherDodge Offline
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Pete: save on the balancing...go external but get a good SFI balancer. I ran a Summit brand since I that motor would not see more than 6900-7000.


Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: TheOtherDodge] #1184
08/08/03 11:25 AM
08/08/03 11:25 AM
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Damper
For stock loaction pullies summit,ati,bhj and tci are all good! the best deal is the summit and bhj ones! i got the tci new off ebay chaep so that is what i went with...


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73 Dart Sport 340/ 70 challenger vert. That may still get built, If I live long enough
Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: 340SIX] #1185
08/08/03 01:41 PM
08/08/03 01:41 PM
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State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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Can you run FAST with a 340 or a 360, umm YES. But to do it, the combination leaves less room for error. ie. The 4" crank motor will be more forgiving to not having the combination dialed in perfectly, and frankly most home builders don't have the time/patience/ $ to keep throwing parts at their car in search of every last .10

I've done both sides of the coin, I've ran 3.58" crank motors for years, and then built a 4" motor. All were street motors. And I can tell you with absolute certainty, that the 4" crank motor was THE best street motor I had, and I did have the ported W2's on a 3.58" right before I did the 4". The guys who badmouth the 4" combo's, I'm, willing to bet have never built one. They are really not that much more $ than building a 340 or 360..... Let's see the cast Crank cost's ~$330 And you probably want to run a junkyard reground 360 crank in your 360 build? OK. There's $50 for the crank and $125 to have it cut .010"/.010" So you've got $175 in a 30 year old Cast IRON crank, VS: $330 in a Brand NEW SCAT 9000 series Cast STEEL crank. OK. I don't think any of these 10 second or low 11 sec 360's are running factory pistons, so they are ponying up the same $490 For forged slugs that the 4" crank guys are doing. And as for Rods, frankly with the price of SCAT H beams these days, if you run stock reconditioned rods in a 475+ HP application, frankly I find it unacceptable. But you want to skimp and save $200 and run a resized, factory heavy rod with ARP bolts, be my guest. Both motors will need balanced. You can't put a light forged piston in a 360 and not re-balance. So there you have it..... you saved ~ $355 on your engine build, and you have a used cast iron crank, and used factory rods, I'm impressed. Oh and don't forget the 5500 Converter and the 4.88 gears you will need with the smaller stroke to get the engine into the powerband.

Yeah I whipped out that Greg Aliano Duster article..... 13.4:1 340,.590" MP Flat tappet, 2.08/1.625" Ported, W-2's, 1 7/8" headers, and of course the complimentary 4.56 gears and 5200 converter. Sheetmetal firewall, no inner fenders.....one of those little moroso add on electric drag water pumps....., oh and don't forget the MT ET Drags.... oh yeah, street car written all over it.

Sorry, You just are'nt going to convince me (or many others) that the 4" cranks are not THE hot setup for a STREET car. You want to talk DRAG motors...... yes, let's drop the stroke to 3.51"-3.79", bolt the big heads on with big squeeze, Wind the piss out of them, 5500+ converters, 5.13 gears, and go run some 9's. In fact, why stop at 9's? Let's do....say a 4.25" bore Siamese R-3, bolt in a custom SCAT 3.71" forged crank, some Carrillo Rods, Custom JE's, .800" Solid Roller, some KILLER CNC W-8's and let's go shoot for the 8.90 zone with a lightened '69 Dart.... Hey wait a minute that sounds familiar....

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: RyanJ] #1186
08/08/03 02:16 PM
08/08/03 02:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
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Houston, Texas
TheOtherDodge Offline
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Ahhhhh.....I love reading the voice of reason.....

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: RyanJ] #1187
08/08/03 04:22 PM
08/08/03 04:22 PM

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Well 13.4 compression is high but alot of the 12-1 motors gotta run good gas so whats an extra point. And seeing as myself and a few other people on this board new Greg Aliano or knew of him the car saw a lot of street use he was a regular at the local burger joints and a frequent racer after hours he lived a good 45-55 minutes by freeway from the areas that we saw him at and not to mention when he got a challenge he would drive another hour into LA to meet his competition. If your gonna build a stroker you cant convince me about the expence TTI 17/8 headers ,950 carb mallory metal fluiddamper heads that flow 270 or upno matter what kind of aftermarket ones they are and the roller cams some of the guys are using too if you already got the big stuff it wouldnt be much more but stating from scratch it will be a lot although a one time expence and your right we or I have not built one nor seen a stroker so all we can go on is time slips and some of the videos on this web sight like scottys duster going 119 on the video so us ignorant ones who havnt seen these motors and they are fresh to the hobby in the last 2 years are looking at timeslips and saying my car or my buddys car ETd or mile an houred better which was my first post question what is it the streetability ,less gear,converter etc cause it appears the timeslips are not far off in most cases .Lot of guys got their feathers ruffled on this one LOL

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? #1188
08/08/03 05:08 PM
08/08/03 05:08 PM
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Houston, Texas
TheOtherDodge Offline
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That was a long ass last sentence...

Scotty is my buddy and I am the one that ported the stock heads and intake. Nothing trick on that car, and he won the TRUE STREET shootout in those videos, in which there was a cruise and you could not open the hood once the cruise started and the racing was with almost no cool down time. When you won, you came back around and lined up against the next guy.

Bottom line: If you want to go fast, it will cost you some money. But, combination is where it is all at. If you feel that mid 12's is good enough for you, find the best combo to get you there. I can tell you by experience (and so can alot of others), think a little bit in the future.

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? #1189
08/08/03 05:52 PM
08/08/03 05:52 PM
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State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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Quote:

Well 13.4 compression is high but alot of the 12-1 motors gotta run good gas so whats an extra point. And seeing as myself and a few other people on this board new Greg Aliano or knew of him the car saw a lot of street use he was a regular at the local burger joints and a frequent racer after hours he lived a good 45-55 minutes by freeway from the areas that we saw him at and not to mention when he got a challenge he would drive another hour into LA to meet his competition. If your gonna build a stroker you cant convince me about the expence TTI 17/8 headers ,950 carb mallory metal fluiddamper heads that flow 270 or upno matter what kind of aftermarket ones they are and the roller cams some of the guys are using too if you already got the big stuff it wouldnt be much more but stating from scratch it will be a lot although a one time expence and your right we or I have not built one nor seen a stroker so all we can go on is time slips and some of the videos on this web sight like scottys duster going 119 on the video so us ignorant ones who havnt seen these motors and they are fresh to the hobby in the last 2 years are looking at timeslips and saying my car or my buddys car ETd or mile an houred better which was my first post question what is it the streetability ,less gear,converter etc cause it appears the timeslips are not far off in most cases .Lot of guys got their feathers ruffled on this one LOL




A little friendly disagreement now and then can be a good thing. So here goes:

Well 13.4:1 dictates RACE GAS in my book. that is a BIG difference, both in availability and PRICE over a 93 octane pump gas 4" crank motor like say LAR414's. Was he driving that Duster around all the time on true MT ET Drags? If so, I certainly as hell would'nt have wanted to be on the same road with him. I was stupid enough years ago to try to drive a true wrinklewall drag slick on the street, and ever since then, I can't say I can condone it. I'm not personally attacking the guy, but I just think anyone driving true drag slicks on the street is a hazard. DOT slicks like a Hoosier QTP or M/T ET Street is a different story, the sidewalls are much stiffer and from my experience they handle just fine in dry weather situations.

Now about those strokers... A 1 7/8" TTI header?? Is LAR running one of those? Is Scotty? Is Barracuda340S? Was B3stroker on his E headed motor? NO. All had smaller primary tubes. So you're not going to convince me a BIG header tube is absolutely necessary. IMO for the stock exhaust flange style heads, the 1 5/8"- 1 3/4" Stepped TTI's can't be beat for price VS performance. The 1 3/4" Hooker Super Comps are also a fine header. Only on a really good exhaust flowing head like Weedlayer's E heads that have been Pro ported or a set of Ported W2 or W5 etc. do the 1 7/8" tubes start to shine.

950 carb.... hmm well. This is just a case where the bigger inch motors generally like a bigger carb. HOWEVER.... Again, I'm thinking I have seen some quick 4" crank motors running your old school 750 Holleys. a 4779 750 DP is a darn good carb on just about ANY application.

Mallory Metal???????????? WHY OH WHY does everyone think a 4" crank motor HAS TO BE internally balanced????????????????????????????????? One of the quickest ones on this board, is EXTERNALLY balanced, using a POS 18.1 SFI BHJ external damper..... B3Stroker416W5 YES it can easily be argued that internal balancing is the way to go, but if you are trying to save $, the 4" crank CAN BE EXTERNALLY BALANCED with no mallory metal. Sorry this is just one of my pet peeves so it struck a chord.

Fluidampr? See above LOL. If you don't plan on running 10's and needing an SFI damper, then just run junkyard Sh&t if that is what your bottom end is worth to you.....

Heads that flow 270+? I can pretty much guarantee that LAR's J heads would'nt flow 270 on my flowbench, and I doubt Scotty's would either. Probably both in the low 260's on my bench. Both have unwelded exhaust ports, meaning not great exhaust flow, but yet Scotty has run high 10's at ~121 now with a small solid Roller, and LAR 11.30's with a flat tappet, and a heavier car. TOD Ran low 11's in a much heavier Challenger with J heads. All 3 sets of those heads were never touched by a "pro porter" all 3 were home ported. So saying that huge heads are absolutely necessary is'nt exactly correct. Besides you think Aliano's W-2's flowed less than 270? LOL TOD and Barracuda340S would be two board members who I can think of that pretty much just swapped in a 4" bottom end on their current combo's and both picked up significantly in ET/MPH without touching the heads etc.

As for Roller cams, I havn't seen anybody using anything I would even call "big" on a 4" crank motor yet. As far as the board goes, MOST guys are using fairly mild flat tappets. I can think of the Best Machine 'Cuda running 10.30's with a somewhat mild solid Roller, and Scotty has a solid roller, again, what I'd consider a mild one, in his 416. So as far as the cars on THIS BOARD go, I can't recall anyone going balls to the wall with a 4" crank motor YET. If B3Stroker follows thrugh with his new X block motor, you will see a pretty good one. He is talking about 13.5:1 and a LARGE solid roller, with custom CPs, and a light GM rod. With his W5's, there should be no problem seeing 660-675 HP on Gasoline.

Carl's 416 was a pretty radical 4" crank motor, EXCEPT the heads, but he showed that with enough trick parts even a set of Commandos could run 9.60's and make 660 Horse on a 4" crank. But then again, we are starting to stray into the realm of Drag only engines, which is not what this discussion is about. If you want to talk Drag only SB's let's start another post, and then the Stroke sizes will be getting lower, the RPM's will be alot higher, and the $ will be MUCH higher

Like was mentioned earlier by Comp Chassis, until you actually build or drive a 4" crank motor on the street, you have NO IDEA what kind of torque they can produce. Mine made 517 ft lbs at the rear wheels..... I want to see a 3.31" stroke 340 do that. PERIOD. Let alone be streetable. I'm talking I had 900 RPM idle, the thing never ran over 180* even in August sitting in downtown State College Traffic....Did'nt load up the plugs.... That was a great little motor. Flat tappet cam, lash was never off, started fine in cold weather/ hot weather etc. Probably had a 10.40/50 in it in good air with more tuning @ 3200 weight. And that motor was built using last years knowledge, I know a hell of alot more today than I did then, and there are a few things I would have done different, so that one was nothing special. Anybody on this board could duplicate it easily (and several members are LOL)

And for my final thought, perhaps go back and re-read what you wrote here: "which was my first post question what is it the streetability ,less gear,converter etc cause it appears the timeslips are not far off in most cases"

Tha answer is basically YES. Same ET as your more radical Smaller stroke SB's but MORE streetable, takes Less gear to do it, less converter, etc. Has an easier time handling a heavier car like an E body or a B body etc. etc. etc. For a true street car I'm STILL looking to find ONE downside of a 4" crank motor. All guys can find to [censored] about is piston speed, but unless you are running W-9's and are tyring to run 7200+ RPM, it is really a non issue.


And one last thing, back to the original question from Crazy Pete, about building a 416:

Pete, you can take this for what it's worth, some people think my word is gospel, some people think I'm full of Sh&t... Personally I think I fall somewhere in the middle LOL. Anyhow, I've been building/racing SB Chryslers for 11 years now, I've built 4 340's, ~6 360's, and 2 416" motors and have seen/rode in a bunch of others..... And for your STREET car, if you have the $ to put in a new bottom end, DO A 4" CRANK MOTOR, you will NOT be disapointed. On the street in a car like your's TORQUE is KING..... Only thing I would do to your setup, put a 4" crank kit in it and a new flat tappet cam to take advantage of the extra cubic inches, the 4" motors eat duration @ .050". Your intake is fine, your heads are fine, your carb is ok, your headers will be fine, converter will be fine, gears are fine etc. Have fun.

BTW: don't take this the wrong way, but one of the reasons your car has somewhat dissapointed you up until this point is the fact that it IS a 340 in a fairly heavy A body. 3.31" crank and a heavier car, just don't mix well on the street without a lot of gear/converter

Oh and one LAST sidenote, does'nt it feel like old times to see me posting a HUGE LONG, rambling post about SB's??? It's been a while since I have sat down and hashed one out like this, but "back in the day" when I was 69DartGT360 on the old board, I used to get kidded about the ungodly length of my posts.... Feels good again Ryan J.

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: RyanJ] #1190
08/08/03 06:15 PM
08/08/03 06:15 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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For all out engine numbers, I should be able to post some info come the end of the month, maybe the first of next month. The 410 I was building for myself I ended up selling, and is completely assembled and ready to be installed. Should have some shake down runs read pretty soon.

Its a 410, about 14.8-1 compression, W2 heads that flow 312 and a 630 roller with 282/288 duration @ .050. Should make the little demon its going in just fly.

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: Comp_Chassis] #1191
08/08/03 06:34 PM
08/08/03 06:34 PM
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Houston, Texas
TheOtherDodge Offline
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I agree with TheOtherDart!

And I ran the Hooker SC headers...On the bench here in Houston, Scotty heads flowed 262.

I am curious....Anyone against the 4" crank, please state your reasons why. This will not be a bash session, but maybe we can all learn.

As a side note...My BB had a 3.91 stroke. I didn't feel it had the torque I was looking for, and I didn't want to rap the motor up as high as I was. Hense, I am now going with 4.15 stroke. Hmmm...see the similarities in the discussion?

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: Comp_Chassis] #1192
08/08/03 06:59 PM
08/08/03 06:59 PM
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State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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Quote:

For all out engine numbers, I should be able to post some info come the end of the month, maybe the first of next month. The 410 I was building for myself I ended up selling, and is completely assembled and ready to be installed. Should have some shake down runs read pretty soon.

Its a 410, about 14.8-1 compression, W2 heads that flow 312 and a 630 roller with 282/288 duration @ .050. Should make the little demon its going in just fly.




SWEET

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: TheOtherDodge] #1193
08/08/03 07:09 PM
08/08/03 07:09 PM
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The Grand State of Confusion-O...
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The Grand State of Confusion-O...
My 408 is going BACK to the dyno next week with a MUCH BETTER cam in it,BUT, with a POS,basically STOCK cam(don't ask) that engine made 416 FT LBS and 306 HP. ON A BASICALLY STOCK CAM !!!
I can't think of ANY reason a person would be against building a stroker.More torque/Horsepower and less RPM.For the street,that is no brainer...... Like was stated in an earlier post,cost is a wash.......specially if you can do a little trading of parts for some machine work.............MOST machine shops in this area would KILL for a set of 5.2/5.9 Magnum head castings,crankshafts and/or blocks
a wee bit of SHOPPING for deals on the other parts and you can easily build a stroker for about the same money as standard rebuild. $.02


Karma has no menu. You get served what you deserve.
Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: SKR8PN] #1194
08/08/03 07:50 PM
08/08/03 07:50 PM

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How about a wee little 451 stroker?

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? #1195
08/08/03 07:54 PM
08/08/03 07:54 PM
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State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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Quote:

How about a wee little 451 stroker?




Don't get me started on big blocks...... It may be an ugly scene

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: RyanJ] #1196
08/08/03 07:55 PM
08/08/03 07:55 PM
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340SIX Offline
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Can i just say i agree with strokeing it....


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73 Dart Sport 340/ 70 challenger vert. That may still get built, If I live long enough
Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: 340SIX] #1197
08/08/03 08:41 PM
08/08/03 08:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,953
Houston, Texas
TheOtherDodge Offline
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Did someone say stroking a big block?

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: TheOtherDodge] #1198
08/08/03 09:25 PM
08/08/03 09:25 PM

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this sure has been a good read, LOL. it's funny how some that have never done it, don't like it, no matter what. i think everybody knows i'm a big advocate of stroking the street motors, and with good reason. if it's just about time slips, then that may or may not be a different story. maybe ask someone like gregsdart how the strokers work...

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? #1199
08/09/03 06:48 AM
08/09/03 06:48 AM

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I am running an E head 416 10:1 engine behind a wide ratio 833 4 speed with 3.23 rear. Racer brown SSH25/44 cam, TTi headers and H pipe, six pak. 8000 miles so far. It cost $8000 to build including exhaust & every misc nut and bolt.

Pump gas car, on last years tune up it ran 107 mph in the 1/4 3700 lb car with driver...do the math....this year it should run even faster-new tune up.

16 mpg, never runs over 190 degrees. 142 mph top end. Beats new regular corvettes [no Z06's will play]in stop light street racing, idles at 900rpm with 10-12" of vacuum.

To give you an idea of how much torque it makes: just using the throttle you can run the entire road coarse at Watkins Glen at speed in 4th gear...now that is torque!

Go for the stroker, [just don't be crazy with the cam choice]there is nothing else like it!

Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? #1200
08/09/03 05:24 PM
08/09/03 05:24 PM
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CT - just outside Hartford
Crazy73 Offline OP
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Ryan, T_Quad, and others that I missed - thanks very much for the advice so far. Please keep it coming.

I figured on the new pistons being ~~ $500, and a full set of bearings being whatever they are ~~ $100? New cam ~~ $250

So for $800-900 I would have a 340 that "may" run the ETs I am hoping for, but would be a little less streetable with that cam (most likely)

If I toss another $800 at it for new rods and crank (purchase a kit instead of individually) - and the damper, I would have an Eheaded 416 that would be very streetable, and run the times I want to run, or better.

Can you tell I am leaning towards the stroker build?

Thanks again guys, the replies are very helpful.


Pete
-1968 Barracuda 4spd 383-6pk
Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output? [Re: Crazy73] #1201
08/09/03 05:54 PM
08/09/03 05:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
Crazy73 Offline OP
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I just took the Desktop Dyno file (head flow and cam file) for my current engine, and bumped the CID up to 416 - - I set it down to 10.5:1 compression, plugged the values into my Drag Race SE program (HP/TQ from 2000 up to 6500 in 500rpm increments), added my 3.55 ear ratio, .41 drag, 43% over rear tires, 8.5" Hoosier Quick times (not slipping), 3500 stall through a 727, and it said with perfect track conditions, shifting at 6000 would get me an ET of 11.49 @ 116.8 - and "typical" track conditions would get me an 11.65 @ 114.3

Does that make sense? Is this realistic?


----- One could only hope!


Pete
-1968 Barracuda 4spd 383-6pk
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