Got a non lock up A-518 and am trying to decide wich atf to run, i wanted to run atf+4 originally but the guy who re-built my transmission told me that atf+4 has alot of friction modifyers that my transmission does not need because i have no converter clutch.
I have always been told that type f is the best atf to run in a torque flight, my old man ran type f in the 727 in his 70 plymouth cuda 440-6 pak car and in his 77 dodge truck and had great results, he always told me that you want a firm shift not a sloppy shift.
I realize the A-518 has an overdrive unit so it is not exactly the same as a 727 but they are very simliar, is there any reason type f would perform any different in a non lock up A-518 as it does in the 727?
I was considering the valvoline max life atf, but the owner of the transmission shop who re-built my transmission told me to stay away from synthetics and type f, in fact he said anyone who runs type f in a torque flight is an idiot... wich i had to strongly disagree, my old man ran type f in them and he was the smartest mopar guy i knew, unfortunetly he has passed away so i can not ask him bout running type f in the non lock up A-518. The owner of the transmission shop told me to run ether dexronIII or atf+3 or a non synthetic universal fluid, wich is what i think they put in my transmission.
So what fluid do i use? i have a good sized transmission fluid cooler mounted on outside of my raditor and i plan on getting a transgo shift kit installed, with that being said should i run dexronIII, type f. or valvoline max life even tho max life is a synthetic and my builder told me not to use a synthetic atf? i dont know why he said no to synthetics he didnt explain himself on that he just said no synthetics no type f no +4 and said if you can still find +3 you can use that, if not put a non synthetic universal fluid in it or dexronIII and call it good.
He told me to flush all the fluid out and change the filter and fill up with new fluid after 1000 miles, i am currently at 600 sum miles, so its coming up and i need to pick a fluid to run, thanks

If you have a warranty and want it honored I would run what the builder specifies .

I run dexron III in my lockup 47RE , over 100k miles without an issue .

Type F lacks the lubricating properties needed for the overdrive. Dexron/Mercon would be appropriate for a non-lockup 518.

I have always ran type-f in my re-built trannys for my self and customers and have not had one come back. I do always drill holes for extra lube to the OD mabey that is why or mabey I am lucky I probably just do one t-flite a month, Mr, Kunkle on the other hand I think does a lot more I am always willing to learn a little something...

what lubricating properties are need for the overdrive? and since lubrication is important for the overdrive should i be considering a fluid like the valvoline max life atf? i wanted to run the max life atf and had my mind pretty much made up over it untill the owner of the transmission shop who re-built my A-518 told me to stay away from synthetic atf's.
I really wish i knew why he does not want me to run a synthetic atf, he didnt really explain himself on that he just said stay away from synthetics, is synthetic atf's a bad idea for my transmission? or can and should i use the max life, or should i just run regular dexronIII because thats what he says to run? i would like the added protection of the synthetic if thats an important thing in the overdrives wich it sounds like it is. but i would also like firmer shifts, would the max life atf cause softer shifts then reg dexronIII or would they be close enough to where a person couldnt tell?

I don't know the builder's reasoning behind 'no synthetic'.
What I do is use ATF+4. Reason is simple, I have 4, soon to be more with autos. I'd rather have a stock of one type of fluid.

the problem with the synthetics and +4 is they are all desighned with lots of friction modifiers, those modifiers make the clutches slip when they engage. Slipping clutches makes for softer shifts so the manufactures are useing it to make softer shifts because softer shifts sell cars. On the other hand slipping clutches also mean burning clutches especially at elevated power levals. Type-F has the highest friction and helps the clutches grab faster and slip less. It is somewhat of a trade off because the pistons, gears, bearings and valves will see less wear from higher friction. In my experiance the best trade off is to make the clutches last longer and increase lube to mechanical stuff through minor mods in the fluid flow circuits.

Thats why im on the fence about using type f or dexronIII, somone said type f lacks the lubricating properties needed for the overdroive unit, i want the protection needed for the overdrive, what does dexronIII have that type f does not have?
Type f is what i'd like to run for reasons stated above, the firmer shifting and less slipping of the clutches, but if something happened to my transmission i would not want the transmission shop to deny my warranty due to running type f when they told me not to. I dont see how they would know what fluid is in the transmission, they would have to send it away to get tested im guessing and im sure that wouldnt cheap? price wise the dexron/merconIII is same price as the type f but i think the type f is a little cheaper, and is there a difference between type f and type fa?

if you wieght the pro's and con's to the two fluids its still a tuff choice between the two.
Pro's to the type f, firmer shifts, clutches will last longer with type f and i am told f is excellent against heat. con's to the type f, it lacks the lubricating properties for the overdrive unit, the additives in it die quicker then in the dexronIII and my builder advised against using it.
Prp's to the dexronIII, it is what my builder reccomends using, it does have the lubricating properties needed for the overdrive and the additives last longer meaning the fluid will last a longer, Con's to the dexronIII it has friction modifyers in it, it will cause transmission to shift softer then type f therefore wearing clutches out faster.
so you see after wieghing the pro's and con's its still a tuff choice between the two.

Does anyone know where ATF 4 is available in gallons or maybe even a 5 GALLON PAIL?

i'm sure you could order a 5 gallon pail of atf+4 from your local parts store, like napa or car quest or oreilly auto parts. in fact i seen big pails of different atf's on oreilly auto parts website.

At this point i'm thinking m just going to flip a coin heads for type f tails for dexronIII, weighed the pro's and con's to each and they both have there good and bad points, but like a previous poster said, increasing clutch life sounds most important to me as well, and if type f helps increase the clutch life, then thats the fluid to run in my opinion, just wish my builder would agree because him telling me not to run type f is the only reason i have not chosen it

Most of the bad overdrives I have seen it was bad clutches not hard parts although I have seen one of the big roller bearings in the back go bad and one set of planataries go bad in one. I run type-f in my personal stuff and tow with the OD all the time

Dexron III is close but not quite as slippery as mopar +4.

Either way you choose I don't think it is a huge differance, I just like giving mine the extra little edge and yes, you can feel the differance in going from +4 to type-F while dexron III will be in the middle.

do not run royal purple or redline there synthetics are too slipery for puter trans, if you can find +3 from a dodge dealer that would be the best, if not cheapest +4. if you run dextron III you must use with +4 additive also found at dodge dealer.

My transmission is not electronically controlled, it's a 1991 and is still hydraulically ran, with a non lock up converter. hotroddave, have you ever ran type f in a non lock up A-518? you say you run in it yur transmissions, was just curious if you have a non lock up A-518 like mine and if you have ran type f in it? if so how does it perform? is it any different then how it performs in a regular 727? i wouldnt think there should be any reason for it to perform any differnt in the non lock up A-518s then in the 727s.
And i agree keeping the clutches in optimal sounds like the best idea to me as well. i dont see why type f wouldnt be able to lubricte the bearings and planatery gears an different then dexronIII or atf+4 does.

I have ran it in one non-lock-up 518 (non a lot of them out there)and it was behind a very serious SB stroker and that was like 6 years ago and it is still working fine. I run it in my 97 46RE (electronic 518) and it is fine.

that's what i figured, i couldnt see any reason for type f to work any different in a non lock up A-518 then how it works in a 727, that's the fluid im leaning twords using the most. I will most likely use it, is there a difference between type f and type fa?

Here's the difference, the planetaries in the 727 are only running in the first two gears and can survive without much lube. The 518 planetaries are running almost constantly and need better lubrication.

Those who are sucessfully running type F in OD transmissions illustrate the old adage..."There's a difference between doing it right and doing it wrong and getting away with it".

As stated earlier ATF+4 is formulated for lockup converter clutches, not needed in a non-lockup 518 but it won't do any harm if you're not making tons of power.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2461929#Post2461929

Lotsa info here...

i already have a transgo shift kit that will be installed shortly.
I guess i could run dexronIII if it truely has more lubricating ability then type f, but i have been told type fa has some modifyers added in it that reg type f does not, and from what i have read the type fa was made to give better lubricating ability then regular type f? all i know is my old man ran type f in his 727s and he was by far the smartest mopar guy and mechanic i have ever met.

I understand that in order to get a better performing transmission i need to look further then just changing the fluid, wich is why i purchased the transgo shift kit, i am just waiting for tax returns to pay for it to be installed, so i will have a shift kit, and i figured once the shift kit is installed thats when i'll switch to the type fa transmission fluid, that way i get the best of both worlds, a better shifting transmission because of the shift kit, and a better shifting transmission due to the more grabby type fa fluid, and i would be getting more lubricating ability and protection with the type fa, the type f and type fa are pretty much the same fluid, but from what i have learned reading up on it online the type fa does have a little bit more additives to help with its lubricating and protecting ability.

So, Mr.kunkel, does type fa have better lubricating ability over regular type f? i am trying to figure out what the difference is between type f and type fa, and i would assume the A in type fa means additives, and by extra additives i would assume that means it has better lubricating and protecting ability. You said dexron/mercon would be more appropriate because it has better lubricating properties so i was just wondering if the type fa would have better lubricating abilitys then the reg type f. If i do end up running dexron/merconIII what do you think of the valvoline max life dex/merc fluid? it is a full synthetic and my builder advised against synthetics, and according to the valvoline fluid tech i talked to on the phone the valvoline max life is a full synthetic universal fluid and would be fine for my transmission, that being said would i get firmer shifts with the valvoline max life or with the reg valvoline dexron/mercon fluid?

And doctor fiberglass, go to google.com and type in oreilly auto parts and there web site will pop up as a link go to it and look in there fluids and chemicals category and they are able to get drums of different atf's and oil's.

mopar part#5013458aa gallon

The type f fluid was designed for ford friction material which is close to early 727.I have not seen that type of friction material in 5+ years.The friction material in your overdrive housing will be new style paper linings,not the metal impregnated frictions in the forward or direct locations.If he installed a shift kit you won't get that much friction from it shifting anyway.I don't install type f in anything unless you own a old Ford.If he voids warranty because of that type of fluid i would find a different transmission builder.If you have a good external cooler any mopar fluid will be good for your transmission.My experience is to look at the transmission dipstick and fill with that fluid.

I'd use dexronIII before i would use atf+4, i have a non lock up converter so my transmission does not need the friction modifyers in +4, i am told it would make it shift real soft and run hotter, i do have a good transmission fluid cooler and plan to get a deeper delrae transmission pan that holds an extra 4 to 5 quarts of atf, i guess i'll just run dexronIII but type f or type fa is what i'd like to run, like i said i may just flip a coin, heads dexronIII tails type fa lol

I would like to know the difference between type f and type fa tho, i'm thinking the A in type fa has to mean additives, and with additives that has to mean a better add pack or more advanced add pack then regular type f, and with that being said type fa has to have more lubricating and protecting ability over regular type f correct?

john kunkel, you also said +4 would be fine if im not making alot of power, maybe i should have mentioned this, my engine is turning 320hp and 385 ft lbs of torque, its not a huge number of horse power and torque but its a significant amount, with the being said, is that considered enough power to worry about using a special fluid for the transmission.

I have noticed alot of people saying that the dexron/merconIII will be non excistent here pretty soon and that the only dexron there will be is dexronVI, would dexronVi be a good idea to run in my non lock up A-518? i asked my transmission builder about running dexronVi and he said oh no dont run dexronVi thats a synthetic, lhe said it like synthetic is a bad thing, kind of like oh no dont eat raw chicken that will give ya salmonella poisoning lol.
I do respect the opinions of the people on this fourm, this is just a confusing topic, some people say ya type f is an old fluid that still works great, some people say oh no type f dont have the lubricating ability and that i should run dexronIII, and some people say you should run a synthetic, see what i mean? there are so many different opinions as to what fluid you can run in this transmission that its hard to decide on wich fluid would be the best for the transmission, they all advantages and disadvantages, again it comes to wieghing the pro's and the con's to each fluid.
I am curious to know what you guys would think of trying the new dexronVi, even tho its a synthetic, (wich my builder advised against and i do not know why??) it says that dexronVi can be used in anything calling for the previous dexronIII spec. i learned today that dexronIII didnt even come out untill 1993, thats when gm introduced dexronIII, my truck is a 1991 dodge with the non lock up A-518, so factory fill in my transmission im assuming was dexronII.
Someone mentioned reading my dipstick and using what my dip stick says, my dip stick is not the factory dip stick, thew transmission shop who re-built my transmission gave me a new dip stick and dip stick tube, theu moved the tube behind the engine to get the dip stick tube away from headers and gave me a new dip stick that does not list what fluid to use, it just says check while hot and idleing in nuetral and shows me the full and low mark on the dip stick.
I dont see why dexronVi wouldnt work in my transmission, if dexronII was factory fill in my transmission, and two years later dexronIII replaces dexronIII and then dexronVi rplaces dexronIII and says its ok to use in anything calling for the older dexronIII spec. what do you guys think on the dexronVi? or if im going to go synthetic should i run the valvoline max life atf, it is also synthetic? i can still get dexron/mercon atf, but i have heard that it is not going to be around too much longer and that dexronVi is replacing it. just like +4 replaced the +3.

518's like mopar type 4, they typically do not like dextron or type f. That's how it is here in the world of mopar practical experience. Been down this road with the 518 od. OK?

You can buy real mopar type 4 in bulk from your local dealer

OK here goes...


USE DEXRON III !

Your builder said to use it, if you use anything else he may not warranty it, the different fluids do smell different. It is a decent middle of the road fluid and will not be a huge differance from the best fluid to the worst fluid. How good the tranny was built will be a much bigger factor in it's longevity.

Oh and I do put a warranty on my trannys, 12 month unlimited miles and never had to do warranty work on them and I recomend and use type-f. However if someone used +5 in it I would not deny warranty because like I said it is more about the build quality

On the subject of transmission fluid, what are the opinions on using "Universal Hydraulic Fluid"?

Several years ago, sometime mid 90's. I had a transmission cooler line fail, and literally pumped all my fluid out down the road.

I was stuck on the side of a county road, and a farmer happened by, we towed the car back to his place via tractor. And I repaired the line with some hose I kept in the emergency kit.

I now needed to get fluid in the transmission. The farmer had no transmission fluid, but did have TSC brand jugs of Universal Hydraulic Fluid.

I got the gears turning in my head, and know that some hydraulic systems uses transmission fluid, and the transmission is basically a hydraulic pump, so I added the Universal Fluid to the 727.

It worked, and worked well. In fact because I was on such a tight budget at the time, and it was my "beater" car. I never changed it back to transmission fluid.

I had the car for 4 or 5 more years, and even made a cross country road trip from Eastern Nebraska, to Western Wyoming. Never an issue or slip.

So what say the transmission builders? Was this a fluke of luck, or is there some merit to using something other than "transmission" fluid.

In my opinion it was no fluke, alot of the diesel guys run hydraulic fluid in there transmissions, i believe the most popular is the john deere hygard. I guess i will use regular dexron/merconIII. with a shift kit the dexron should be ok, and since it has better lubricating ability over type f and its what my builder said to run then i will run it, i was just wanting to run type f for some firmer shifts is all and its a little cheaper, but i used dexron/merconIII in the 727 that was in my 76 dodge powerwagon and i never had any problems with that transmission. When i first got that 76 the 318 that was in was worn out and tired, burned oil had no power no compression. So i figured the transmission was probly a little tired as well, when i first got it i flushed all the fluid out of it changed the filter and put new dexron/merconIII in it along with a bottle of lucas transmission fix and i never had any problems with that transmission, i serviced it once a year and it ran untill the day i rolled the truck, never once had a transmission issue with it and i was running dexron/merconIII so it cant be that bad of a fluid.

dexron/merconIII it is i guess then, at least it meets in the middle between type f and atf+4. i have had good luck with dexronIII in the past too.

do you have a personal prefernce as of wich brand of dexron/merconIII to run mr kunkel or will the valvoline dexron/mercon work fine? because thats what i was planning on using, ether that or the napa house brand dexron/merconIII

I use the house brand of whichever store I'm in.