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Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: NicksGarage] #1151154
01/07/12 12:57 AM
01/07/12 12:57 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
I Live Here
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: Dragula] #1151155
01/07/12 01:03 AM
01/07/12 01:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669
Michigan, USA
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ramman5600 Offline
mopar
ramman5600  Offline
mopar
R

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669
Michigan, USA
Curious about thoughts on how much impact reducing engine rpm from 3100rpm @ 70mph (std 727 trans) vs 2550rpm @ 70 mph (with Gear Vendors) would have on the a 6.1 L hemi

Mileage?

Wear and tear?

Noise?

Other thoughts?

-C

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: NicksGarage] #1151156
01/07/12 01:18 AM
01/07/12 01:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo  Offline
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Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
Quote:

The GV unit will take 0hp away from your normal 3 speed operation where as the A500 is always robbing some hp because it drives thru the OD all the time. They say it can rob as much as 1sec in ET...




I have never seen one scrap of evidence to back up this claim. Not saying it's impossible, but I have never seen anything to substantiate this at all. Until I see a real, all things equal comparison between the two, I'm going to have to put this one right up there with the other myths like the thin wall 70's 440 blocks and low nickel late 70's mopar blocks.

Quote:


Before I committed to it I asked around if this transmission would be a good choice for a motorhome (weighs 6500 pounds) and was told that the overdrive part would be too weak for this application. I ended up just building a standard 727. I would have liked the extra mileage. Now I have a new '74 camper which is around 7000 pounds and interested in overdrive again but this rig already has a good 727 in it and wonder if this shortie overdrive would work.




So they didn't think the 518 would work in a 6500-7000lb motor home but it works just fine in dodge pickups that weigh 5000lbs on their own + tow that much in trailers, cars, campers, etc. A good rebuild kit and the transgo tfod-hd2 shift kit is the ticket. With the right combination of parts you can also install extra clutches in the overdrive tail unit.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1151157
01/07/12 01:25 AM
01/07/12 01:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 99
South Dakota
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wireweld Offline
member
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South Dakota
Quote:

Quote:

The GV unit will take 0hp away from your normal 3 speed operation where as the A500 is always robbing some hp because it drives thru the OD all the time. They say it can rob as much as 1sec in ET...




I have never seen one scrap of evidence to back up this claim. Not saying it's impossible, but I have never seen anything to substantiate this at all. Until I see a real, all things equal comparison between the two, I'm going to have to put this one right up there with the other myths like the thin wall 70's 440 blocks and low nickel late 70's mopar blocks.



smr transmissions did a comparison on a small block dodge dakota between a 727 and a 518. Lost a full second e.t. with the 518. Same truck, engine, rear and track.

Last edited by wireweld; 01/07/12 01:26 AM.
Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: Dragula] #1151158
01/07/12 02:39 AM
01/07/12 02:39 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,679
Florida
BDW Offline
master
BDW  Offline
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Posts: 4,679
Florida
Quote:

Here is the shorty..

http://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/id32.html




THE "Shortie" overdrive option can be added to any of the above transmission models for the additional cost of $2,825.00.

I just lost interest!

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: BDW] #1151159
01/07/12 03:59 AM
01/07/12 03:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,127
Ramona, CA
NicksGarage Offline
master
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Posts: 4,127
Ramona, CA
Quote:

Quote:

Here is the shorty..

http://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/id32.html




THE "Shortie" overdrive option can be added to any of the above transmission models for the additional cost of $2,825.00.

I just lost interest!




Yeah it would take a lot of miles for me to pay for that in gas savings. I almost bought a Class C motorhome for $1500 that had a gearvendor in it. This was before I got my own motorhome so I would have had to figure out what to do with the rest of it. It wasn't a bad motorhome just a lot bigger than I wanted.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: wireweld] #1151160
01/07/12 04:04 AM
01/07/12 04:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Manitoba, Canada
Quote:


smr transmissions did a comparison on a small block dodge dakota between a 727 and a 518. Lost a full second e.t. with the 518. Same truck, engine, rear and track.




I'm sure a company that specializes in 727 and 904 AND sells the gear vendors units is absolutely unbiased.

Where's the data? Specs on the transmission builds? Was this a bone stock w/ stock converter 518 left in drive versus a 727, converted to roller internals with an aftermarket converter, valve body and shifted manually?

Take a stock unrebuilt 727, stock unrebuilt non-lockup 518(so you can put the same converter on both) and actually rebuild both transmissions COMPARABLY. Then run then down the track 10 times each and get back to me. Until someone does that, everything is heresay and myth.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: dfsmopars] #1151161
01/07/12 06:56 PM
01/07/12 06:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
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denfireguy Offline
top fuel
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Colorado
If the GV overdrive had the same overdrive ratio, I would possibly consider it.
But at 15000 miles a year with 20 miles to the gallon and gas at 6 dollars a gallon, the break even point for the GV at $3k would be over three years.
Since most of us are not going to get 20 mpg and we will drive less than 15000 and hopefully gas does not make six dollars, payback will be even further into the future. The A500 at half the price and better ratio makes better sense to me.


2014 Ram 1500 Laramie, 73 Cuda
Previous mopars: 62 Valiant, 65 Fury III, 68 Fury III, 72 Satellite, 74 Satellite, 89 Acclaim, 98 Caravan, 2003 Durango
Only previous Non-Mopar: Schwinn Tornado
Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: denfireguy] #1151162
01/07/12 08:25 PM
01/07/12 08:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,406
Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
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Posts: 12,406
Kalispell Mt.
The 518 can in no way rob more HP than a GV. The 518 only adds roteing weight in 1st 2nd and 3rd, no other "drag" is added, the pump is not doing any work holding clutches or bands or line preasure or any thing. The GV adds a similar amount of rotateing weight in all gears combined with an almost useless extra gear. The OD section can easily have clutches added, if you use the 48RE OD section it can handle 800 lbs tq easily!

As for the 1 second difference in ET from a 727 to a 518 I say BULL CRAP! Like I mentioned earlier, there is a few pounds added to the rotateing weight, thats IT! In first second and third there is some extra weight and in no way can those few extra pounds knock off 1 second in ET. If the trannys get equal prep it can't be more than a couple tenths. If 5-10 pounds in rotateing weight could really knock off 1 second then every car could switch from a steel drive shaft to carbon fibre and gain a second


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: HotRodDave] #1151163
01/07/12 08:50 PM
01/07/12 08:50 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
I Live Here
Dragula  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Its funny the people commenting on the facts when they don't own or drive either of them...Where are your "facts"? The fact that most seem to agree upon is that neither are are cheap, and I can say if you skimp on an A500 rebuild, it will come back out when it does start slip.

Last edited by Dragula; 01/07/12 08:52 PM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1151164
01/07/12 10:08 PM
01/07/12 10:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,122
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
I Live Here
patrick  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,122
Grand Haven, MI
Quote:

Quote:


smr transmissions did a comparison on a small block dodge dakota between a 727 and a 518. Lost a full second e.t. with the 518. Same truck, engine, rear and track.




I'm sure a company that specializes in 727 and 904 AND sells the gear vendors units is absolutely unbiased.

Where's the data? Specs on the transmission builds? Was this a bone stock w/ stock converter 518 left in drive versus a 727, converted to roller internals with an aftermarket converter, valve body and shifted manually?

Take a stock unrebuilt 727, stock unrebuilt non-lockup 518(so you can put the same converter on both) and actually rebuild both transmissions COMPARABLY. Then run then down the track 10 times each and get back to me. Until someone does that, everything is heresay and myth.




yeah, I'm calling shenanigans on this claim, too...especially when a mid-late 90's dak with a 318 and a few bolt on's is a high 13 second ride....I can't see swapping from a 518 to a 727 or 904 getting it into the 12's.

granted my 5th ave is a mild build, at the time a XE262,header, and RPM air gap equipped 360 long block, but I saw no appreciable difference going to a 904 with a MP166K converter and B&M trans pack shift kit to a A500 with the same converter and trans go TFOD shift kit.


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: patrick] #1151165
01/07/12 10:20 PM
01/07/12 10:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,882
Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
I Win
stumpy  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,882
Grand Prairie,Texas
I have run both the A518lu and the 727 in my 410 stroker truck and haven't found 2 tenths difference using the same stall rated coverter (3000)and rear end. Launching and shifting both at the same RPM. That's facts.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: HotRodDave] #1151166
01/08/12 12:37 AM
01/08/12 12:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669
Michigan, USA
R
ramman5600 Offline
mopar
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mopar
R

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669
Michigan, USA
Quote:

The 518 can in no way rob more HP than a GV. The 518 only adds roteing weight in 1st 2nd and 3rd, no other "drag" is added, the pump is not doing any work holding clutches or bands or line preasure or any thing. The GV adds a similar amount of rotateing weight in all gears combined with an almost useless extra gear. The OD section can easily have clutches added, if you use the 48RE OD section it can handle 800 lbs tq easily!

As for the 1 second difference in ET from a 727 to a 518 I say BULL CRAP! Like I mentioned earlier, there is a few pounds added to the rotateing weight, thats IT! In first second and third there is some extra weight and in no way can those few extra pounds knock off 1 second in ET. If the trannys get equal prep it can't be more than a couple tenths. If 5-10 pounds in rotateing weight could really knock off 1 second then every car could switch from a steel drive shaft to carbon fibre and gain a second





Show us the math on the "worthless extra gear". I'll even give you the parameters. 3.73 rear gear, 28" tall rear tire, 4000lb car.

Also has anyone factored the cost of modifying the trans tunnel or the loss of perceived value with a hacked up cross member?

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: ramman5600] #1151167
01/08/12 01:08 AM
01/08/12 01:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,122
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
I Live Here
patrick  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,122
Grand Haven, MI
Quote:

Quote:

The 518 can in no way rob more HP than a GV. The 518 only adds roteing weight in 1st 2nd and 3rd, no other "drag" is added, the pump is not doing any work holding clutches or bands or line preasure or any thing. The GV adds a similar amount of rotateing weight in all gears combined with an almost useless extra gear. The OD section can easily have clutches added, if you use the 48RE OD section it can handle 800 lbs tq easily!

As for the 1 second difference in ET from a 727 to a 518 I say BULL CRAP! Like I mentioned earlier, there is a few pounds added to the rotateing weight, thats IT! In first second and third there is some extra weight and in no way can those few extra pounds knock off 1 second in ET. If the trannys get equal prep it can't be more than a couple tenths. If 5-10 pounds in rotateing weight could really knock off 1 second then every car could switch from a steel drive shaft to carbon fibre and gain a second





Show us the math on the "worthless extra gear". I'll even give you the parameters. 3.73 rear gear, 28" tall rear tire, 4000lb car.

Also has anyone factored the cost of modifying the trans tunnel or the loss of perceived value with a hacked up cross member?




the worthless extra gear comment meaning this:

3rd (direct) at 75mph with 28" tires and 3.73 assuming no converter slip: 3350 RPM, mist likely 3500 w/converter slip

gear vendors OD drops it to 2650 RPM no converter slip, most likely 2800-2850 with slip

518 OD drops it to ~2320 RPM, with no converter slip. you won't have converter slip if using a lockup converter...

IMHO a .78 OD is not enough OD to warrant the cost...


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: patrick] #1151168
01/08/12 01:14 AM
01/08/12 01:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669
Michigan, USA
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ramman5600 Offline
mopar
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mopar
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 669
Michigan, USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The 518 can in no way rob more HP than a GV. The 518 only adds roteing weight in 1st 2nd and 3rd, no other "drag" is added, the pump is not doing any work holding clutches or bands or line preasure or any thing. The GV adds a similar amount of rotateing weight in all gears combined with an almost useless extra gear. The OD section can easily have clutches added, if you use the 48RE OD section it can handle 800 lbs tq easily!

As for the 1 second difference in ET from a 727 to a 518 I say BULL CRAP! Like I mentioned earlier, there is a few pounds added to the rotateing weight, thats IT! In first second and third there is some extra weight and in no way can those few extra pounds knock off 1 second in ET. If the trannys get equal prep it can't be more than a couple tenths. If 5-10 pounds in rotateing weight could really knock off 1 second then every car could switch from a steel drive shaft to carbon fibre and gain a second





Show us the math on the "worthless extra gear". I'll even give you the parameters. 3.73 rear gear, 28" tall rear tire, 4000lb car.

Also has anyone factored the cost of modifying the trans tunnel or the loss of perceived value with a hacked up cross member?




the worthless extra gear comment meaning this:

3rd (direct) at 75mph with 28" tires and 3.73 assuming no converter slip: 3350 RPM, mist likely 3500 w/converter slip

gear vendors OD drops it to 2650 RPM no converter slip, most likely 2800-2850 with slip

518 OD drops it to ~2320 RPM, with no converter slip. you won't have converter slip if using a lockup converter...

IMHO a .78 OD is not enough OD to warrant the cost... [/quote}

Cost aside - 700 rpm drop is not worthless. The 518 is better from that standpoint, but what option do you have if you don't want to hack up your car? Keisler GM adaptation? Better first ratio and as good or better O/D ratio.

Last edited by ramman5600; 01/08/12 01:16 AM.
Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: ramman5600] #1151169
01/08/12 01:15 AM
01/08/12 01:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
Quote:

Also has anyone factored the cost of modifying the trans tunnel or the loss of perceived value with a hacked up cross member?




Well if you can't manage the tunnel/crossmember mods yourself, then chances are you can't fab your own trans mount for the 518, and chances are you can't build your own 518 either. So if you have to farm all that out, you are probably at the same $ level as a gear vendors.

FWIW, the OP asked about a 72 charger. A 72 charger will not need the tunnel or crossmember modded. A 70 or earlier b-body would need those mods. If you have a car that would need the crossmember modded, and you're not comfortable with that, then yes chances are you would be happier with a gear vendors or a chevy 700r4 based auto like the keisler 4-sp auto. Also, from what I've gear, the gear vendors units still do require you to your tunnel for clearance. You don't have to and but it's not a straight bolt in either from what I've read.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: ramman5600] #1151170
01/08/12 01:16 AM
01/08/12 01:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo  Offline
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Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
Quote:


Cost aside - 700 rpm drop is not worthless. The 518 is better from that standpoint, but what option do you have if you don't want to hack up your car? Keisler GM adaptation? Better first ratio and as good or better O/D ratio.




IMO it is worthless when you consider a comparable or lesser cost option like a 500/518 or chevy 700r4 will deliver a much superior overdrive ratio.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1151171
01/08/12 11:23 AM
01/08/12 11:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 99
South Dakota
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wireweld Offline
member
wireweld  Offline
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Posts: 99
South Dakota
What about the 200r4? Same ratio as the 904 w/low gear set and a nice .67 od. Can handle a good amount of power when built right. And no tunnel mods, just need to redo the cross member.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: wireweld] #1151172
01/08/12 11:44 AM
01/08/12 11:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,336
the house on the left.
C
cogen80 Offline
master
cogen80  Offline
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C

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Posts: 5,336
the house on the left.
Quote:

Cost aside - 700 rpm drop is not worthless. The 518 is better from that standpoint, but what option do you have if you don't want to hack up your car? Keisler GM adaptation? Better first ratio and as good or better O/D ratio.




200r. supposed to fit with no cutting the floor too. i want to see what this guy has to do to get it in his car. sounds like a decent option though. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=169183&highlight=200r4


.

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors [Re: dfsmopars] #1151173
01/08/12 11:53 AM
01/08/12 11:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,089
Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
master
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Posts: 6,089
Valencia, España
I would add Gear Vendors for one simple reason. I don't think MYSELF would change an original part of my car, just making upgrades. Gear Vendor is an upgrade of the original part, is an ADD ON section on my original tranny.

Otherwise, I think there is not 727 replacements with OD for BBs... or yes ?

But that's me

anyway, I can't afford it LOL


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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