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all the above

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I agree with Quick, my first engine guy took on a joint venture with another company and didn't have the time to take on any new builds for individuals altho he said he could PROBABLY fit me in since I was a prior customer,,I was extremely happy with his work both quality and price,,was told about my present machinist,and it took me almost a year and a lot of stopping in and discussing and other customers experiences to convince me, only problem is time lines,it takes him quite a while to get things done because a lot of other customers like his work also and he stays real busy.

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The problem I have is that nobody is going to give me straight up answers for the questions that really count.

"For every 10 engines you build, how many have problems that require the owner to bring it back to have you tear it back down again?"

"How often has an engine YOU built develop significant problems due to YOUR selection of parts or machine work and you deny any responsibility for it?"

"How many times have you charged somebody for work you listed on the invoice, but didn't actually do?"

Not hard to figure out I haven't been exactly thrilled with some of the machinists or engine builders I've used in the past.

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That's why I assemble my own as I can catch anything that's not right.

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But we see it all the time....we read about someone who took an engine to "x" shop and I know there is a large portion of us reading that says to ourselves.... why the heck would you let "x" do that type of build, or touch your motor .... but yet people still go back.

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I am learning that my freinds do great work on motors in general.,I know that Best Machine will do motor work but as percise Anal as they are It's going to cost some $$ to go fast the correct way.
I will take all my motor work to Pete and Chuck.Just the way it is. You want your motor to run the # then pay the price

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Not hard to figure out I haven't been exactly thrilled with some of the machinists or engine builders I've used in the past.

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That's why I assemble my own as I can catch anything that's not right.

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But we see it all the time....we read about someone who took an engine to "x" shop and I know there is a large portion of us reading that says to ourselves.... why the heck would you let "x" do that type of build, or touch your motor .... but yet people still go back.

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I have my machine work done... then from there its
up to me

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Me TOO There are no secrets to success in engine building You have to have a very good machine shop do that work,you need to have the proper tools to check the machine shops work, use really good parts and assemble it correctly after you have made sure that all the work and components are correct and then keep it as clean as you would want for your very own brain surgery I have learned a lot from a lot of good and bad racers and machine shops, you can't go fast with bad parts or bad machine work or dirty parts

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When you are going to choose who builds your next bullet, what are the things that you use as factors when picking your builder?

What you have read from an online forum?

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i get a kick out of the "i do it myself" guys...
thats not me. i work at what i am good at, and i pay a professional to do what he is good at.. in the most part its not rocket science.. but experience is alot... i personally use BES racing engines, argueably the best in the business. just look at his engine masters record..
ill work a couple extra saturdays doing what i do to have the piece of mind that a real pro built my stuff.

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Like you said... its not rocket science, but I think
alot of the guys that dont do it is due to the lack
of equipment... JMO

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the best equipment in the world wont make a good machinest.kinda like this good computer doesn't make me spell better,lol.but my question is why do machine shops take on more work than they can get out in a timely matter,then proceed to take in your job then start next weekin you till you go nuts.

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thats a million dollar question

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(1) Honesty/integrity
(2) Knowledge of all engine types
(3) Customer history
(4) Service after the sale

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the best equipment in the world wont make a good machinest.kinda like this good computer doesn't make me spell better,lol.but my question is why do machine shops take on more work than they can get out in a timely matter,then proceed to take in your job then start next weekin you till you go nuts.

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Pretty simple... they dont want to loose the work...
the engine building business isnt doing all that great
(at least in this area) so once its in the door its
money... alot of shops could care less about a little
song and dance act

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the best equipment in the world wont make a good machinest.kinda like this good computer doesn't make me spell better,lol.but my question is why do machine shops take on more work than they can get out in a timely matter,then proceed to take in your job then start next weekin you till you go nuts.

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Pretty simple... they dont want to loose the work...
the engine building business isnt doing all that great
(at least in this area) so once its in the door its
money... alot of shops could care less about a little
song and dance act

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the best equipment in the world wont make a good machinest.kinda like this good computer doesn't make me spell better,lol.but my question is why do machine shops take on more work than they can get out in a timely matter,then proceed to take in your job then start next weekin you till you go nuts.

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Pretty simple... they dont want to loose the work...
the engine building business isnt doing all that great
(at least in this area) so once its in the door its
money... alot of shops could care less about a little
song and dance act

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do you think i used them again,the old saying please 1 customer,they tell no one, make one mad they tell everyone.just sayin.

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...in the most part its not rocket science...

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Yet, I've paid "professionals" good $$$ to eff up my parts and charge me for work not done. Hence, I'm a "do it myself" guy now.

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...in the most part its not rocket science...

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Yet, I've paid "professionals" good $$$ to eff up my parts and charge me for work not done. Hence, I'm a "do it myself" guy now.

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I have always been the "do it myself guy" and have paid professionals that charged me for work not done.
That is my biggest problem, a good machinist. When you pay someone who is so many miles away to do your machine work, and it isn't right, or even done, you then have to decide if it is worth it to have them make it right!

Mark

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i get a kick out of the "i do it myself" guys...
thats not me. i work at what i am good at, and i pay a professional to do what he is good at.. in the most part its not rocket science.. but experience is alot... i personally use BES racing engines, argueably the best in the business. just look at his engine masters record..
ill work a couple extra saturdays doing what i do to have the piece of mind that a real pro built my stuff.

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Like you said... its not rocket science, but I think
alot of the guys that dont do it is due to the lack
of equipment... JMO

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absolutly dead on, I am a machinist by trade and would preferr to do it, but lack of the proper equipment is my hang-up, so I take a competant machinist, have him do what I cannot and I do the rest, including selection of part's to be used.

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i get a kick out of the "i do it myself" guys...
thats not me. i work at what i am good at, and i pay a professional to do what he is good at.. in the most part its not rocket science.. but experience is alot... i personally use BES racing engines, argueably the best in the business. just look at his engine masters record..
ill work a couple extra saturdays doing what i do to have the piece of mind that a real pro built my stuff.

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When you are going to choose who builds your next bullet, what are the things that you use as factors when picking your builder?

Is price really the deciding factor??? as we all know that lower price comes with lower quality parts, or lower attention to details

Location of the shop?

What you have heard?

What you have read from an online forum?

Is it the personality of the folks that are at the business that sway you?

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I am luckier than most on here I guess, because I have a brother that is an engine builder. I have him do all of my work, and he is the only one I will trust when it comes to recommendations about my engines. Plus he has an engine dyno for tuning.

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Reputation, Mopar builder, self contained, a lot of experience with the project I'm working on, and lastly price. Steve Gill and Ceralli's in New Jersey fit the bill for me.

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I will 2nd that opinion.Steve Gill is Tops in my book and Ceralli's shop & dyno are awsome.I will forever thank Steve for his help,loan & advise.I know I will be back inside his shop in the future

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So why do you guys think that some of these shops that have messed up builds for folks, or have sold you a bill of goods and come to find out you didn't get anything close to what you paid for still have or get work.

I think as a mopar community we are doing our hobby a complete disservice by continuing to use the shops like this.

It's not so easy a caveman can do it, but looking at the technology and the advancements we have made in our sport in the last 20 years I'm not convinced that cavemen haven't been captaining this ship.

We as a group need to demand improvements in what we are buying.

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One reason Josh is if you do on here you take a beating from the other members, Including other mods. They all stand up for him with no knowlege of the Engine build. I have a motor now that i have put over 20k in it and it still not right. The motor only has 300 miles on it and was built and check over by TWO DIFFRENT HALL OF FAME engine builders.

Parts missing from motor I sent them. Burnt push rods. Bad or used rockers. Rods were not demagnetized. Wrong finish on cylinder walls. Oil pump top plate scored. Paper towels or cloth fibers thick in omberg oil filter. Used parts in ur motor.

Contact the first engine builder He denies its his motor. quote: " Thats Indys S*%$ ! Slams phone down. How ever on HIS own websight he has the same list of parts for his Torque Moster as in my engine. A employee of his dug up old records showing its was his motor.

Secound builder Said about the burnt rods after ran from my phone calls and emails for over a month. " I can tell by the pics you sent me that the rods reach a temp of 1150 degrees which shows you let the engine sit to long befor starting it"
B/S

Other Honest engine builders have confirmed the above on other peoples motors. They say thanks to them, Thats what keeps them in buss.

There should be a Thread for this type of stuff. bad parts, service and so on. IF there was EVERYONE would win. Better parts, service, more sales would be achived from it.

NOW WHO IS GONNA CAST THE FIRST STONE !

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This could be an endless debate,the fact that there are many good/great engine builders out there the facts remain the same for everyone of them.Sometimes shizt happens thats is beyond their control ie: bad parts,other times it maybe an employee mistake,or a bad combination of mismatched parts.
As mentioned time and again paying for a good job is what everyone expects and thats normal business,screw up and the world will know unless the shop has the integrity to man up to any issue and work through the problems with each customer.How problems are handled is what make any good shop or builders reputation.Even if the problem was not the fault of the shop,they at least should help the customer fully understand what happened.
Also like in any business,sometimes growing bigger is not always better.The owners' name is on everything that leaves the shop,good or bad.In all my years of business if a customer has a problem then I have a problem.Many shops hide behind the fact that they build race/performance engines or componants and after the money changes hands they are resolved of any resonsibility and this leaves the customer no recourse but to complain and the internet gives them a world wide audiuance.
The only thing I can recommend is find a shop or builder that you trust,have confidence in and can build a relationship with them so that any issues can be worked out together.

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So why do you guys think that some of these shops that have messed up builds for folks, or have sold you a bill of goods and come to find out you didn't get anything close to what you paid for still have or get work.

I think as a mopar community we are doing our hobby a complete disservice by continuing to use the shops like this.

It's not so easy a caveman can do it, but looking at the technology and the advancements we have made in our sport in the last 20 years I'm not convinced that cavemen haven't been captaining this ship.

We as a group need to demand improvements in what we are buying.

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Bob,I know your appointment book is booked for several seasons and was just using your name as an example because of your squeaky clean reputation.I was just making a point and in no way shape or form want to lead ANYBODY to think you are one of those shops,heck I havn't even been in the barnyard ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yet

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Al,didn't take it that way,I was just generalizing how things happen and how things can be resolved.As far as squeaky clean reputation(thanks),we also have some issues from time to time and it's how we handle it that makes us who we are.We would rather lose money than a friend,racer or customer.I always recall my first real experience from back in the early 70s when I bought my first rail(top fuel dragster)from Cekus& Palmer it was the Ex. Bougher and Reese top fuel car that was the hottest thing in these parts.The engine tossed the crank on the first pass.We pulled the engine and found a lot of junk parts and found a lot of damage from salt water(oxidising)like it came out of a offshore race boat .We called the famed engine builder(on West coast)that built the engine.Before he hung up on me,he said "quote" Son if I guarranted every engine that left this shop,I'd be out of business tommarrow. I had just spent my lifes saving for one pass and learned a hard lesson that lives with me still today.

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I think as customers we just want the truth. don't take in a job promise a date and then don't deliver.it's not except-able. if there is a reason that was not seen get on the phone and explain it.I think most machine shops and body shops over book/take in more than they can handle. it sucks when you have races or things planed out and can't get your stuff back. and usually the machine shop doesn't get their money until the job is completed so it makes no sense

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Well put Tony. We have turned down a lot of work because we know most racers are on a deadline.

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When you are going to choose who builds your next bullet, what are the things that you use as factors when picking your builder?

Is price really the deciding factor??? as we all know that lower price comes with lower quality parts, or lower attention to details

Location of the shop?

What you have heard?

What you have read from an online forum?

Is it the personality of the folks that are at the business that sway you?

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I think as customers we just want the truth. don't take in a job promise a date and then don't deliver.it's not except-able. if there is a reason that was not seen get on the phone and explain it.I think most machine shops and body shops over book/take in more than they can handle. it sucks when you have races or things planed out and can't get your stuff back. and usually the machine shop doesn't get their money until the job is completed so it makes no sense

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That's pretty much my point.If you choose a shop with a good rep,waiting is part of a good build.No need to give a short ETA if it can't be delivered.A good shop will already be booked for some time which creates a longer waiting time.I can handle that,it just when you get BS'd on an eta.

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quality+honesty,i can deal with being a tenth slower,i'd rather not have my engine apart every 6 passes.ps i dont want a kid on a friday putting my motor together,when he's got a date that he's in a rush for.

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you ain't racin nobody anyway. and you dont know [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] about a car!

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for me cost is not a issue,i buy the best parts.i only want to do it one time.i have gone to a bunch of builders so i have a feel for what is good.i met pete from best machine at norwalk in 2009 and had a good feeling.i talked to pete and chuck and got the pso motor started.they went out of their way to find a buyer for my old b1 motor so could build the new one .they held a set of heads for me.they put all the best parts in it ,the motor made sick power i am a customer for life.i drive 11 hours to get there,when you know you have a good shop you just know thanks again best machine

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hey johnny, your car looks awsome bro! when we taken out billy hicks?LOL.

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hey mark i hope to have the car out in the springi cant wait to put that chevy boy on thetrailer.he wont be calling mopars slopars anymore.i think he is scared he is talking about a steve schmitt motor.later johnny.

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I would like to see all B1 Boys at a Monster Mopar show and invite those x Brands and see who has thier ducks in a row. we have 4 of us running B1 setups this year. Looking to put X brans on the trailers.

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hey mark i hope to have the car out in the springi cant wait to put that chevy boy on thetrailer.he wont be calling mopars slopars anymore.i think he is scared he is talking about a steve schmitt motor.later johnny.

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SWEET, if i don't see you wednesday have a good holiday.. MARK.

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i get a kick out of the "i do it myself" guys...
thats not me. i work at what i am good at, and i pay a professional to do what he is good at.. in the most part its not rocket science.. but experience is alot... i personally use BES racing engines, argueably the best in the business. just look at his engine masters record..
ill work a couple extra saturdays doing what i do to have the piece of mind that a real pro built my stuff.

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