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Cam changes or not. #1131652
12/11/11 01:12 PM
12/11/11 01:12 PM
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kilroy Offline OP
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BB 440 at 40 over. running eddy heads w 84cc chamber untouched, but harland sharp rockers. Should be right at 10:1 pistons were .007 down when motor was assembled. Street dominator and a TQ for intake. Homemade smallish headers w 3"exh and a X pipe all exits out the rear. 4speed, 3.55 rear. aluminum flywheel.

Motor crank compression checked at 147-150 cold on all cylinders in current config.

Right now

I currently am running a mopar P4120655 cam the ".557" cam.
I couldnt find the intake and exhaust events to link to so someone will have to supply them to me if they have them. But I remember it being somewhere around 252* at .050 but at a outlandish .028/.032 lash.

I also have a comp cam Comp Cam 21-247-4 that I could use. The link has the intake/exh events but its only a 236* at .050 cam which is CONSIDERABLY smaller.

Also being that they are solid cams they act smaller than a respective hyd cam by about 10*, or so Ive been told.

1)What Im looking for is a more Cranking Compression and some more torque. The motor really really move about 6000-7000rpm but we all know on the street about those rpms.
I have all the hardware to run either and can step up on valve springs to if I needed but the motor seems not to float now so...

2)Im also contemplating a backward step to HP exh manifold for the more look stock go for the kill on the street.. I currently dont race (kids, mortgage, etc) but I still love to drive my car.

3)Will I be losing a LOT on the top or will the bottom make up for.

4)Or will I really not be waking it up on the bottom that much?

I know its my style and driving habits but Just wonder what some Moparts opinions might be.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131653
12/11/11 01:51 PM
12/11/11 01:51 PM
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Could only find adv dur 296/296 overlap 76 centerline 110 lift .557/.557 lash 29/32 basic rpm 3400-7200 drag pro comp manual and high stall automatic. P4120655 EDIT Yes I'd go with a much smaller cam (not sure which/not a cam guy) and for now is your dizzy dialed in. You should be able to run a very agressive curve. What fuel and yes that is a low cranking compression #

Last edited by RapidRobert; 12/11/11 01:56 PM.

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Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131654
12/11/11 01:54 PM
12/11/11 01:54 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
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Kilroy---is this in a heavy 73 Charger? Man that power band must be a bear on the street with a 4 speed~!!! And and Aluminum flywheel to boot... Lotso clutch slip to get her rolling huh?

You are perfect candidate to give a little off the top for the benefit of a little more street grunt--IMO.

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1131655
12/11/11 03:26 PM
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kilroy Offline OP
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Ya Ive got the distributor dialed. Ya the car on a serious street diet thought. The only iron left is the rotating assembly and the block (engine wise that is). Ive cut at least 200-300 lbs off the exterior too. Still looking to loose more but Ive taken the "easy" big weight out.

Not bad on the street at all, just soft on the bottom end. Can I call cam events using specs given? Ive plugged the small cam into a dynamic CR calc but without the intake closing event I cant calc the big one.

How much tire frying ability ya think Ill gain to be Neanderthalic about it?

Last edited by kilroy; 12/11/11 03:27 PM.

1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131656
12/11/11 03:38 PM
12/11/11 03:38 PM
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Quote:


How much tire frying ability ya think Ill gain to be Neanderthalic about it?




Where does your powerband start now? (Whats the lowest RPM that you can roll into the throttle quickly, in gear, without a bog, and have it pull hard).

If its much over about 2500 then I'd say you can gain a LOT!

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131657
12/11/11 04:13 PM
12/11/11 04:13 PM
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Your .557 camshaft should actually measure in at 257@.050. You would be making a pretty large change going to the Comp grind you are looking at.
It's probably not a bad choice,but you will limit the top end quite a bit compared to the MP grind.
But it really depends on what you want to accomplish.
Do you know where the installed centerline of the MP cam ended up? They recommend it in at 108,but with a street car I like to advance it a couple more degrees. I always thought that grind made pretty decent torque,so I was wondering if it was unintentionally installed a couple degrees retarded now?
Keith

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: Dunnuck Racing] #1131658
12/11/11 04:25 PM
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no i degreed it in at 4* advance. any ideas on low Cranking comp?


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131659
12/11/11 04:27 PM
12/11/11 04:27 PM
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Quote:

no i degreed it in at 4* advance. any ideas on low Cranking comp?




Its due to overlap.

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1131660
12/11/11 04:30 PM
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Quote:

Quote:


How much tire frying ability ya think Ill gain to be Neanderthalic about it?




Where does your powerband start now? (Whats the lowest RPM that you can roll into the throttle quickly, in gear, without a bog, and have it pull hard).

If its much over about 2500 then I'd say you can gain a LOT!




I have the carb and distb. dialed, I can roll into it at any Rpm, its just not absolute tire frying. I am running 3.55 w/ a 275/60/15 but they are just street tires. I have a homemade caltrac style suspension w/ hd springs so ireally dont think im that stuck to the ground.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131661
12/11/11 04:35 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


How much tire frying ability ya think Ill gain to be Neanderthalic about it?




Where does your powerband start now? (Whats the lowest RPM that you can roll into the throttle quickly, in gear, without a bog, and have it pull hard).

If its much over about 2500 then I'd say you can gain a LOT!




I have the carb and distb. dialed, I can roll into it at any Rpm, its just not absolute tire frying. I am running 3.55 w/ a 275/60/15 but they are just street tires. I have a homemade caltrac style suspension w/ hd springs so ireally dont think im that stuck to the ground.




Interesting, I have a 70 'Cuda, 440 4speed, 3.55 275/60/15 with caltracs on HD Springs!
Lunati 60303 cam (268/274, .493/.513 hydraulic) and I can't trottle under 1900-2000 RPM, but once above that point its an easy burn em as long as you want.

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1131662
12/11/11 04:35 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

no i degreed it in at 4* advance. any ideas on low Cranking comp?




Its due to overlap.




Well this what I thought but reading a lot of post guys are in the 170-190s with my compression. I guess I felt a little lacking.

Was looking for some more pop.

I know it takes more than 10.1 to really pop but a little more Cranking compression was expected.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131663
12/11/11 04:38 PM
12/11/11 04:38 PM
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Quote:

no i degreed it in at 4* advance. any ideas on low Cranking comp?




Whats the LSA on that cam and did you degree it
when you put it in or did you just use the 4* advanvce
on the gear set.... it sounds like you have it in retarted

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1131664
12/11/11 04:50 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

no i degreed it in at 4* advance. any ideas on low Cranking comp?




Whats the LSA on that cam and did you degree it
when you put it in or did you just use the 4* advanvce
on the gear set.... it sounds like you have it in retarted





Its possible I retarded it but I would feel retarded then.

I used the cam sheet MaMop supplied degreed it straight up and used a 4* button which degreed out at 105 so I left it.

IF i remember right. (that was two winters ago and ive slept since then.)

Put a set of non file fit rings on it but I checked the gap in the bore as calced and required by KB and it was really close so I accepted it.

Last edited by kilroy; 12/11/11 04:57 PM.
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1131665
12/11/11 05:04 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


How much tire frying ability ya think Ill gain to be Neanderthalic about it?




Where does your powerband start now? (Whats the lowest RPM that you can roll into the throttle quickly, in gear, without a bog, and have it pull hard).

If its much over about 2500 then I'd say you can gain a LOT!




I have the carb and distb. dialed, I can roll into it at any Rpm, its just not absolute tire frying. I am running 3.55 w/ a 275/60/15 but they are just street tires. I have a homemade caltrac style suspension w/ hd springs so ireally dont think im that stuck to the ground.




Interesting, I have a 70 'Cuda, 440 4speed, 3.55 275/60/15 with caltracs on HD Springs!
Lunati 60303 cam (268/274, .493/.513 hydraulic) and I can't trottle under 1900-2000 RPM, but once above that point its an easy burn em as long as you want.




Wow check your cam specs out and it closes 28* earlier than either of my cams!!! I supposes that the difference between a hyd and a mech cam?

Plug that in to this dynamic CR calc makes the motor look 40psi better 1.35 better on dcr. Looks like a real hero now

Last edited by kilroy; 12/11/11 05:05 PM.

1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131666
12/11/11 05:08 PM
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Quote:

How much tire frying ability ya think Ill gain to be Neanderthalic about it?


couldn't have said it better myself Moderate street manners and low/midrange torque. Matched components


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Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: RapidRobert] #1131667
12/11/11 08:46 PM
12/11/11 08:46 PM
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I also think you'd be much happier with the smaller cam. The Comp cam is about the size of one I'm runnin in my 10>1 eddy headed 451 and it works REAL well on the street. Will smoke street tires for blocks.


Take care,
Rick
68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: HemiRick] #1131668
12/11/11 09:26 PM
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I ran the MP .557 in my old 440 combo and I really liked it. But I degreed my cam in and put it on a 104 centerline setting using my degree wheel. It ran 11.49 @ 116 best in my 63 at 3700 lbs with 906 heads and the Holley SD intake. It had 10.0 comp. Never even checked cranking comp since it ran so good. That is a nice size cam but you need to degree it in with the degree wheel since it is a large enough cam that it will make good hp but if not set right it can hurt the low end as any large enough cam can do in the wrong combo. I think it would work good in your combo if set right and it needs enough comp. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 12/11/11 09:43 PM.
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: 383man] #1131669
12/11/11 09:53 PM
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kilroy Offline OP
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Yes everyone I said I degreed it in. Its just been 2 years and I cant remember the specs, Ive seen those damn degree notches on chains if not checked be off by 10*!!!! Just a warning to others FYI.

Thanks though Ill double check it this winter sometime just to make sure good but it was 2 years ago.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: 383man] #1131670
12/11/11 09:58 PM
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Quote:

I ran the MP .557 in my old 440 combo and I really liked it. But I degreed my cam in and put it on a 104 centerline setting using my degree wheel. It ran 11.49 @ 116 best in my 63 at 3700 lbs with 906 heads and the Holley SD intake. It had 10.0 comp. Never even checked cranking comp since it ran so good. That is a nice size cam but you need to degree it in with the degree wheel since it is a large enough cam that it will make good hp but if not set right it can hurt the low end as any large enough cam can do in the wrong combo. I think it would work good in your combo if set right and it needs enough comp. Ron




Dont get me wrong, in its rated power-band the cam really pulls the motor hard, but for street tire frying you really have to side step the clutch HARD.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131671
12/11/11 10:47 PM
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If you have the valve clearance you could advance it
like 6* to get better low end torque

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1131672
12/12/11 02:28 AM
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As stated by Mr_P if you have the room with the valves to the pistons you might try tightening the valves up some just to see how it reacts. It can give you and idea if it might like the cam advanced if it helps the low end. Just a cheap idea to try if your are not dead set against changing the cam.

Sorry as I did not mean to harp about whether you had degreed the cam as I know how you can ask a question on the board and get a million answers other then what you really asked for. Ron

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: 383man] #1131673
12/12/11 02:47 AM
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You'd want to loosen(not tighten) the lash a few thou if you want to help the bottom end. I think the cams a little long for the combo,I'd knock 10-14 degrees out and you'll be fine. Tim @ bullet cams has what you need if you cannot tune the current combo to suit your needs.

Last edited by goldmember; 12/12/11 02:49 AM.
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: 383man] #1131674
12/12/11 10:00 AM
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Quote:

As stated by Mr_P if you have the room with the valves to the pistons you might try tightening the valves up some just to see how it reacts. It can give you and idea if it might like the cam advanced if it helps the low end. Just a cheap idea to try if your are not dead set against changing the cam.

Sorry as I did not mean to harp about whether you had degreed the cam as I know how you can ask a question on the board and get a million answers other then what you really asked for. Ron






1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131675
12/12/11 10:04 AM
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kilroy Offline OP
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1 questions.

1) What I dont understand in dynamic CR calcs; they always ask for intake closing event, would not more be determined by the exhaust closing event since they never ask for more specs than just the intake closing event?

Last edited by kilroy; 12/12/11 10:46 AM.

1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: goldmember] #1131676
12/12/11 10:09 AM
12/12/11 10:09 AM
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Quote:

You'd want to loosen(not tighten) the lash a few thou if you want to help the bottom end. I think the cams a little long for the combo,I'd knock 10-14 degrees out and you'll be fine. Tim @ bullet cams has what you need if you cannot tune the current combo to suit your needs.




These cam run pretty loose as is and rattle a lot anyways. Whats a "safe" amount of lash to take add without causing serious issues?


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131677
12/12/11 10:23 AM
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Hey guys I found a really great list of calculators!!! Finally found one I can put in cam specs and get the events. Good stuff.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

Really eye opening what Ive been discovering.
also how much of the calc theories applies and works directly in the real world?

ALSO discovered that lunati gives there cam events @.050 which I think is the wrong number to use in a dynamic calc?

Last edited by kilroy; 12/12/11 10:48 AM.

1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131678
12/12/11 10:46 AM
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The thing with the intake closing is thats the last
thing to happen as the piston is starting up the cyl... you
wont start to make compression until the intake closes...
the dynamic compression starts when the intake closes
but it determines where the piston is in the upward
stroke... if you look at the wallace site(dynamic
compression) you will see that it gives you the
EFFECTIVE STROKE... thats the length of compression
you have


Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1131679
12/12/11 11:06 AM
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Quote:

The thing with the intake closing is thats the last
thing to happen as the piston is starting up the cyl... you
wont start to make compression until the intake closes...
the dynamic compression starts when the intake closes
but it determines where the piston is in the upward
stroke... if you look at the wallace site(dynamic
compression) you will see that it gives you the
EFFECTIVE STROKE... thats the length of compression
you have






oh wups duh....got to really over thinking things.
was thinking backwards about overlap.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131680
12/12/11 02:35 PM
12/12/11 02:35 PM
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Here you go. This will make your head hurt for sure. http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: GomangoCuda] #1131681
12/12/11 04:33 PM
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Quote:

Here you go. This will make your head hurt for sure. http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm




Thanks!! REALLLY good read. I never even thought about the V/P index. Interesting!!


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131682
12/12/11 04:35 PM
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448 Stroker. 282S Magnum cam lashed at 23 instead of stock 22, 84 cc Eddy's, Crane 1.6's, RPM intake 850dp with 4hole 1 inch spacer, 1.75 headers, 11 inch converter.

A *&^%load of torque, best 60 ft time of 1.65 launching at 1100.

I was wondering in an earlier post about switching to your cam :^/

The giggle factor because of the torque is pretty high with a 3.91 gear.

It is a good winter project, but I wonder, because of the 4 speed if there is a better cam for you than either the magnum 282S or the .557.

Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: GwaiiEagle] #1131683
12/12/11 05:29 PM
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Quote:

448 Stroker. 282S Magnum cam lashed at 23 instead of stock 22, 84 cc Eddy's, Crane 1.6's, RPM intake 850dp with 4hole 1 inch spacer, 1.75 headers, 11 inch converter.

A *&^%load of torque, best 60 ft time of 1.65 launching at 1100.

I was wondering in an earlier post about switching to your cam :^/

The giggle factor because of the torque is pretty high with a 3.91 gear.

It is a good winter project, but I wonder, because of the 4 speed if there is a better cam for you than either the magnum 282S or the .557.




Probably is a really a better cam aside from those but, they are the cams I have on hand, that and a MP P4120237 (509cam hyd). Christmas and money as said before are tight but I do have talent the want to tinker.

I know you have a SB but how many Rpm will yours turn?

Mine has plenty of power in the band as stated before and will pull well up to 7k (that my limit with what I have in the motor). Just really doesnt wake up till about 3k and above.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131684
12/12/11 08:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 964
Nanaimo, B.C.
Quote:

Quote:

448 Stroker. 282S Magnum cam lashed at 23 instead of stock 22, 84 cc Eddy's, Crane 1.6's, RPM intake 850dp with 4hole 1 inch spacer, 1.75 headers, 11 inch converter.

A *&^%load of torque, best 60 ft time of 1.65 launching at 1100.

I was wondering in an earlier post about switching to your cam :^/

The giggle factor because of the torque is pretty high with a 3.91 gear.

It is a good winter project, but I wonder, because of the 4 speed if there is a better cam for you than either the magnum 282S or the .557.




Probably is a really a better cam aside from those but, they are the cams I have on hand, that and a MP P4120237 (509cam hyd). Christmas and money as said before are tight but I do have talent the want to tinker.

I know you have a SB but how many Rpm will yours turn?

Mine has plenty of power in the band as stated before and will pull well up to 7k (that my limit with what I have in the motor). Just really doesnt wake up till about 3k and above.





The 448 is a BB (.020 400 block with a 3.75 stroke)

It pulls quite strongly to 5800 and a is little flat after that.

Last edited by GwaiiEagle; 12/12/11 08:44 PM.
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: GwaiiEagle] #1131685
12/12/11 08:52 PM
12/12/11 08:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 862
Iowa State fan
kilroy Offline OP
super stock
kilroy  Offline OP
super stock

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 862
Iowa State fan
Quote:

The 448 is a BB (.020 400 block with a 3.75 stroke)

It pulls quite strongly to 5800 and a is little flat after that.




Never thought about that.

Bummer I like to turn mine to about 6k some too 6500.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: goldmember] #1131686
12/12/11 09:38 PM
12/12/11 09:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
Too Many Posts
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
Quote:

You'd want to loosen(not tighten) the lash a few thou if you want to help the bottom end. I think the cams a little long for the combo,I'd knock 10-14 degrees out and you'll be fine. Tim @ bullet cams has what you need if you cannot tune the current combo to suit your needs.





No tighten the valves a tad to see if it likes it. It may like the cam advanced some if it runs better. I would only tighten them a few thousands just to see how it runs. I know its not advancing the cam but it will open the vales sooner just a tad. Course it also opens them more so you have to be careful if it does not have alot of PTV clearence. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 12/12/11 09:39 PM.
Re: Cam changes or not. [Re: kilroy] #1131687
12/12/11 11:04 PM
12/12/11 11:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Quote:

The 448 is a BB (.020 400 block with a 3.75 stroke)

It pulls quite strongly to 5800 and a is little flat after that.




Never thought about that.

Bummer I like to turn mine to about 6k some too 6500.




If you like to turn it up to 6500.... I would see if
you CAN advance the cam.. IF you have the piston to
valve clearance... if so then I would advance it
about 4*-6*... that moves the whole torque and HP
range lower in the rpm's... gives you more effective
stroke so it would up the cyl pressure... I have my
cam advanced 6* in the race car but I have the cam
in my street rod straight up but thats a tight 105
LSA cam and I dont want the added torque because
it would raise the stall point higher than I need

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