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jetting at the track and reading plugs way better to me. i curse the LM1 more than i praise it

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Interesting......... prior to my dyno tune(wide band readings) I went low 10`s then got my first 9 so,.........

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jetting at the track and reading plugs way better to me. i curse the LM1 more than i praise it

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Interesting......... prior to my dyno tune(wide band readings) I went low 10`s then got my first 9 so,.........

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also, i dont see how a wideband tells you where your motor will make the most power, the dyno did but not the wideband

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Well, what I'm hoping to use it for is to tune for a reasonably flat air-fuel ratio across the WOT RPM range, but let my on-track jet tests still determine what the engine "wants" to make the most power.

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Wow, so far we've got... 1 , one 1 , and one vote. I love this place!

FWIW, the kit I bought 2 years ago is a single-channel LM-2 deal which I was planning to set up by putting the O2 bung in my x-pipe to try and get something of an "averaged" reading from both banks.

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its amazing your car can even run without one let alone drive a couple hours to the track, run a 10.50 @3700lbs and drive home

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It is a tool like any other tool, the end user determines how effective it becomes Mine has help me immensily Buy a dual wideban with the ability to read RPM and store data so you can transfer it to a laptop or some other devise to read and analyse it later instead of having to focus on the gauge while driving, racing or in traffic

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its amazing your car can even run without one let alone drive a couple hours to the track, run a 10.50 @3700lbs and drive home

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How is that so amazing?

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its amazing your car can even run without one let alone drive a couple hours to the track, run a 10.50 @3700lbs and drive home

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How is that so amazing?

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I wouldn't bother building a car these days without a wideband in it. The things are so cheap it is crazy not to use them. I see engines every year that are ruined by guys who have their carbs jetted too rich. The extra fuel washes down the guides or the rings and the motors get toasted. The engine builder I work with sees at least one motor a year that gets killed by a bad tune.

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That's exactly what happened to my motor prior to getting a wideband. I have a 3 circuit dominator. I was cruising in the 11:1 range...can you say rich as hell. Had to install a power valve, jet down the primaries 8 sizes, restrict the tranfer slots down to .063, and jet down the intermediate jets to .020. Now it cruises at 14.5-15:1 and the plugs look perfect.
So to me a wideband was priceless!

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I wouldn't bother building a car these days without a wideband in it. The things are so cheap it is crazy not to use them. I see engines every year that are ruined by guys who have their carbs jetted too rich. The extra fuel washes down the guides or the rings and the motors get toasted. The engine builder I work with sees at least one motor a year that gets killed by a bad tune.

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That's exactly what happened to my motor prior to getting a wideband. I have a 3 circuit dominator. I was cruising in the 11:1 range...can you say rich as hell. Had to install a power valve, jet down the primaries 8 sizes, restrict the tranfer slots down to .063, and jet down the intermediate jets to .020. Now it cruises at 14.5-15:1 and the plugs look perfect.
So to me a wideband was priceless!

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I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when you're PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

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how have you applied this to bracket racing? I guess I am one of those guys that don't give a flip whats going on as long as the car repeats lap after lap. that's what wins races/money not having a perfect tune. I could care less about being politically correct. I give mine what it wants to make it run the number. but I would like to know what the LM1 says just from curiosity. bring your dang gizmo down and spend a day at the track

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I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when you're PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

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If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

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I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when your PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

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while i agree with everything your saying, it still does not makes things perfect

example, NASCAR says the reason they are going to FI is because the motor needs to be jetted much richer then it actually needs to be because G forces will make the whole left bank lean. what good would a LM1 plugged into the rght bank of a fast roundy round car do? melt and detonate the whole left bank

if I was to tune my engine on a chassis dyno, it would be completely different than my car going down the track. my front carbs are jettd 6 sizes larger than the rear. how many guys here would do that?

PPMracing that is building Mr Sixpack's new engine has said the same thing about what i'm saying.

the only real tool that would really work is having EGTs in each cylinder.

and BTW, and Dram can back this up because i called him immediately, I was so pissed when i put my LM1 on my car because it said i was spot on everywhere from tuning at the track and looking at plugs.

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I agree too that it doesn't make it perfect.... neither does reading plugs when you're trying to tune the driveability of a motor.....

OK......I wasn't talking NASCAR ......I'm talking getting a car tuned to where it's as driveable as possible.......Have the NASCAR guys run an O2 in every header tube?? I'm assuming they have??? That would be MUCH better than EGT's IMHO........

I can take a car that's got a brand new combo and tune it to be very close to ideal just by knowing what numbers to shoot for from past experience with similar combos.......then I go to the track and jet the end carbs for max ET and trap speed.....

The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front versus where you'd jetted it with the O2? Point being that 98% of the guys I build motors for, that drive fairly regularly on the street, would never see that difference or feel it in the ass-dyno, since 99% of the time the car is moving it's seeing less than 1.2 G's .......but I have taken a LOT of cars and made them feel like they have fuel injection while driving around because of how smooth they transition......and that's what I use it for....

Something else that's great about O2's (and this is for you too, Quicktree ) Once you dial your car in......and you see what A/F your motor likes, when you go to really bad or really good air, you can shoot for that number to get you into the ballpark really quick.......same goes for nitrous.......when you hit the button, you can shoot for that same number where it was running it's best trap speeds naturally aspirated (or even leaner sometimes because of less fuel fallout since the motor revs faster)........it makes getting there a lot faster.......

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how have you applied this to bracket racing? I guess I am one of those guys that don't give a flip whats going on as long as the car repeats lap after lap. that's what wins races/money not having a perfect tune. I could care less about being politically correct. I give mine what it wants to make it run the number. but I would like to know what the LM1 says just from curiosity. bring your dang gizmo down and spend a day at the track

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Like I mentioned, there really isn't going to be a huge gain for most drag race only cars if the guy has an idea how to tune......

I like my motors to run as cleanly as possible....most guys have no idea how rich or lean their motors are while running down the track......How many times have you heard a guy say their "motor was running great all year and all of a sudden it torched a head gasket" or whatever??.......

I know that most bracket racers don't tune their stuff (they bolt the carb on, set the idle mixture to where it idles it's best and run it).....they're just like most street rod guys........as long as their car fires up and makes it to the local cruise in/car show without leaving them stranded on the road, they're happy with how it runs.....

Like already mentioned.....I also use it as a safety/alert device ......It tells me instantly if the A/F is still where it needs to be or if something else is going on......

Something else about O2's......It's fairly common knowledge that as the motor goes up through the rpm range, you don't need as much fuel since there's less fuel fallout with that extra air speed, so you can watch the fuel curve and tune a curve into your motor with air bleeds that gets anywhere from .5 to 1 full point leaner as it goes up.....

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The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front

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The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front

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7mph

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What's the whole story? You jetted the end carbs to get it to run the best it could, then looked at the O2 to see what it showed? then started reading the plugs and stagger jetting and it picked up 7MPH??

Or, did you just jet the end carbs to get it to read a certain number on the O2, like mid 12's.....and then started reading plugs and stagger jetting to got it to pick up 7MPH??

I'm also assuming the air was basically the same throughout all this too??

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Wayne,what ith difference between EGT's & o/2's in each cylinder.I had bungs intalled in each tube for egt's and did not get to use them on dyno day.

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I've got EGT's on my car too (mainly because they came with the used RacePak I'd bought), but they're really only there to tell you if you've got a dead hole either because of a plug wire, cracked plug or bad coil on that cylinder.........even Top Fuel guys will tell you they're basically useless for tuning.....it just tells them exactly when it dropped a cylinder......

Something else to think about.......Your motor may not necessarily want all the EGT's or even O2 readings cylinder to cylinder to be exactly the same.........especially in the case of a Six Pack where it's got a dual plane intake.....end cylinders typically run hotter........the right bank typically runs hotter than the left bank.....longer runners and runners with more of a bend typically need more fuel.......now throw in the G forces of the car launching and running down the track (like Ray mentioned) and it's crazy what it takes to tune that especially when you have 3 jets per back to tune with ........

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What's the whole story? You jetted the end carbs to get it to run the best it could, then looked at the O2 to see what it showed? then started reading the plugs and stagger jetting and it picked up 7MPH??

Or, did you just jet the end carbs to get it to read a certain number on the O2, like mid 12's.....and then started reading plugs and stagger jetting to got it to pick up 7MPH??

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after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT. then went a Dyno day and drove over there and i made 540 whp but it was reading a 14-1 but a cold front had moved in and it was freezing so i knew i would be going to the track soon. plugs looked good. made a few passes and it wasnt to impressive. AF was in the 13s. so i pulled all the plugs, and the rears had dark color. fronts plugs were bone white. so i just threw abunch of numbers at it. then again. then again. went from 103 to 110mph.

only at the track would this show this. wot on the street really wouldnt because your not really going anywhere. just wasting rubber

after the smoke settled, i think i started with 84s in the outboards to 89front 82 rears. and i may have added a number to the center carb. something lke that

and this looks normal compared to the weiand cross ram that had huge differences all over.

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after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT......

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What do you mean by it "read perfect"??

What does the O2 show now??

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after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT......

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What do you mean by it "read perfect"??

What does the O2 show now??

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it reads the same thing now as it did when i first tried it. 14 at cruise. 12.5-13 at WOT. thats my whole point. what it says on the street and chassis dyno doesnt reflect what will happen at the track.

my good friend buider and tuner of some really fast cars, leaning on my fender, pointed at the numbers on the top of my carbs and said, not many guys would do that.

i would like to know, if guys ever looked at the old jetting tips from the old engine manual. popsicle sticks and jetting all over

I'm sorry if some dont believe me. i'm just trying to be helpful. i'll crawl back in my hole now

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I believe you.... just trying to get the whole story...Like I said......it's just a number......but it sure makes tuning driveability NICE and WAY easier than tuning by the seat of the pants, which is what most guys want one for......

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READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

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READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

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READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

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yep and how many people do you see that say they keep adding jet until the porcelain has tanned? little do they know they have probably fouled out the plug. it may still run but it wont be right. I think there are few that really know how to read a plug or have the tools. really I don't pay much attention to the fuel ring on a N/A motor you can see what you need on the base ring in most cases.I know the boosted cars pay a lot more attention to that. and also I have found the fastest way down the track is not good for a bracket racer. rich is not good for being consistent.I was just offered to use a LM2 from a friend on here. I'll get it when I get chance and see where mine is and if it compares to where I think it's at.I know mine is over rich on the idle and transition and should be mildly lean up top.don't care about cruise at all.

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READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

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yep and how many people do you see that say they keep adding jet until the porcelain has tanned? little do they know they have probably fouled out the plug. it may still run but it wont be right. I think there are few that really know how to read a plug or have the tools. really I don't pay much attention to the fuel ring on a N/A motor you can see what you need on the base ring in most cases.I know the boosted cars pay a lot more attention to that. and also I have found the fastest way down the track is not good for a bracket racer. rich is not good for being consistent.I was just offered to use a LM2 from a friend on here. I'll get it when I get chance and see where mine is and if it compares to where I think it's at.I know mine is over rich on the idle and transition and should be mildly lean up top.don't care about cruise at all.

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I totally agree with your method of plug reading. But without a clean neutral to check it out on top end your wasting your time for WOT readings. IMO

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exactly take a look at the video I posted and see what the first thing they say and it's not MY method just the way I was taught and what I believe.

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READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

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yep and how many people do you see that say they keep adding jet until the porcelain has tanned? little do they know they have probably fouled out the plug. it may still run but it wont be right. I think there are few that really know how to read a plug or have the tools. really I don't pay much attention to the fuel ring on a N/A motor you can see what you need on the base ring in most cases.I know the boosted cars pay a lot more attention to that. and also I have found the fastest way down the track is not good for a bracket racer. rich is not good for being consistent.I was just offered to use a LM2 from a friend on here. I'll get it when I get chance and see where mine is and if it compares to where I think it's at.I know mine is over rich on the idle and transition and should be mildly lean up top.don't care about cruise at all.

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I totally agree with your method of plug reading. But without a clean neutral to check it out on top end your wasting your time for WOT readings. IMO

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exactly take a look at the video I posted and see what the first thing they say and it's not MY method just the way I was taught and what I believe.

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OK, didnt see the vid..duh.

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its amazing your car can even run without one let alone drive a couple hours to the track, run a 10.50 @3700lbs and drive home

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How is that so amazing?

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just making a point that you obviously pay attention to how your car is running to run as well as it does. IMO experience with the wideband, it will not show lean cylinder to rich cylinders. my six pack has jetting all over the place. i do what i have to do to make all cylinders look equal. a wideband just wont tell you that unless you have bungs in all cylinders.

as for guys washing down cylinder walls, sure, i know many bracket racers that slap something together and as long as they can run consistantly thats all they care about. that makes me crazy. puffing black smoke driving around the pits and they dont care. then i see other guys times pickup as the weather gets hotter because there car is so lean.

i'm not saying not to have one, i have one in my car and its ON every time i go for a drive. but can it fine tune a crossram or tunnel ram? it may help a little but you wont get your tune right unless you look at plugs. if you only use an wideband to tune, you could have lean cyl and rich cyl and not know what is going on at all

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Hey Ray.....On your Six Pack, is that a factory intake? 7MPH is like 100HP from just changing the front jets!!!..... I'm trying to figure this out in my head.....

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its amazing your car can even run without one let alone drive a couple hours to the track, run a 10.50 @3700lbs and drive home

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How is that so amazing?

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just making a point that you obviously pay attention to how your car is running to run as well as it does. IMO experience with the wideband, it will not show lean cylinder to rich cylinders. my six pack has jetting all over the place. i do what i have to do to make all cylinders look equal. a wideband just wont tell you that unless you have bungs in all cylinders.

as for guys washing down cylinder walls, sure, i know many bracket racers that slap something together and as long as they can run consistantly thats all they care about. that makes me crazy. puffing black smoke driving around the pits and they dont care. then i see other guys times pickup as the weather gets hotter because there car is so lean.

i'm not saying not to have one, i have one in my car and its ON every time i go for a drive. but can it fine tune a crossram or tunnel ram? it may help a little but you wont get your tune right unless you look at plugs. if you only use an wideband to tune, you could have lean cyl and rich cyl and not know what is going on at all

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Hey Ray.....On your Six Pack, is that a factory intake? 7MPH is like 100HP from just changing the front jets!!!..... I'm trying to figure this out in my head.....

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... we also have heard stories about indy single planes with number 1 wet plugs

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Sounds like a Vietnamese hooker's complaint: "Go way! You number one wet plug!"

Hey, I started this thread, I can say that... right?

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no that was on the sheetmetal ram i had at the time. the stock intake was jetted all over the place in line with the DC manual jetting tips. the weiand xram was also jetted all over the place with dams glued to the floor.

my point was just dont hold that AF meter as gospel to what is actually going on. a Six pack is the worst but we also have heard stories about indy single planes with number 1 wet plugs

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Cool....I was picturing a stock intake.....was wondering if any of the FAST guys have experimented.....

On the stock intake with the DC jetting, were the plugs all in line?? You don't happen to know the jetting, do you? I've never even seen one of those manuals, but I know what you're talking about.......

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I was thinking of buying one of the kits. Which one would be the best? A dual or single kit?
My car has x pipe exhaust.
Tuning is not my strong suit.
This is for street tuning on a 472 Hemi.
Thanks
Dave

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Yes. Actually the peak was made a little richer with a smaller air bleed, flattened out the fuel curve, might have hampered the emulsion a little at the lower RPM's to lean it that ended up being good. I had considered changing it before leaving the house as my Racepak O2's showed the same, but figured the car had run so well at the track we would make the first pull as it came off my car. Plugs and MPH are the best way to make major changes, the O2's can show little details to help the fine tuning.Mark Whitener

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I've got an Innovate LM-1 Air/Fuel Ratio Meter Kit that I no longer need and would like to sell.

I made about 20 passes on E85 so the O2 sensor still works fine, still has blue protective sheet on the screen

Here's a link to the kit http://focus.c-f-m.com/freeshippinginnovatelm-1airfuelratiometerkit.aspx

New its still $349

I'd like to get $220 out of it. PM me if interested.

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I ordered one yesterday
Oh well

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For those of you w/ in-car systems, how many use Innovate's LM-2? I didn't realize they had a "mixed" reputation for reliability & performance until after I purchased mine (and was unable to return it) a couple of years ago. I've been tempted on occasion to hunt up a now-discontinued LM-1, which seems to be relatively fool-proof, although not as sophisticated.

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May I ask which ones better LM-1 or the LM-2, I plan to get one in the near future? Car will eventually run on E-85.
Keefe