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Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126065
12/02/11 07:53 PM
12/02/11 07:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Offline
"Little"John

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
I just added a racepak to the duster this year and love it. Make a run, pull the sd card plug it in your laptop. I start recording right before I heat the tires. It charts my O2 readings, battery voltage, oil pressure, trans temp, carb press, g forces, rpm, and water temp. I welded fittings in both collectors so I can monitor both sides. It sure saved me a lot of time getting the jetting right.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126066
12/02/11 09:01 PM
12/02/11 09:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
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Charleston
Quote:

I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when you're PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......




while i agree with everything your saying, it still does not makes things perfect

example, NASCAR says the reason they are going to FI is because the motor needs to be jetted much richer then it actually needs to be because G forces will make the whole left bank lean. what good would a LM1 plugged into the rght bank of a fast roundy round car do? melt and detonate the whole left bank

if I was to tune my engine on a chassis dyno, it would be completely different than my car going down the track. my front carbs are jettd 6 sizes larger than the rear. how many guys here would do that?

PPMracing that is building Mr Sixpack's new engine has said the same thing about what i'm saying.

the only real tool that would really work is having EGTs in each cylinder.

and BTW, and Dram can back this up because i called him immediately, I was so pissed when i put my LM1 on my car because it said i was spot on everywhere from tuning at the track and looking at plugs.


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: sixpackgut] #1126067
12/02/11 09:13 PM
12/02/11 09:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,765
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quick77rt Offline
Parts Problem
quick77rt  Offline
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When I got my ride tuned right I learned to watch the wideband and its pattern.

From time to time if I get junk in a carb it shows it before I feel it.

Had one spray run go wrong and the first thing to let me know was the wideband, aborted without any issues. If I did the full run Id of had alot of issues.

So I use it for a warning tool.....

I went 3 years on one of my N/A motors without ever putting a timing light on it......a friend sent me one, hooked it up....dead on 34 locked out, didnt even loosen the dist....good or lucky????

Would you throw your timing light away???

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126068
12/02/11 10:25 PM
12/02/11 10:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
master
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Prospect, PA
Quote:

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......




IMO, this sums it up. I have helped a couple of guys improve their et by convincing them to stop chasing perfect A/F data. I'm not aware of anyone improving their et by tuning emulsion jets, but I suspect it is possible.

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: BradH] #1126069
12/02/11 11:12 PM
12/02/11 11:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 684
Milwaukee
ToddP Offline
super street
ToddP  Offline
super street

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 684
Milwaukee
I have to chime in here as well. With out a doubt the best tuning tool of the past 7 or 8 years when they became affordable. (ie inovate motorsports). For all the reasons others here have stated.

Here is another reason others have not noted, but I would like to address.

The ability to determine weather you have an ignition or fuel related problem. Sometimes the differences can be subtle. The wide band will tell you right away if you have an ignition problem.

I have tti headers that run very close to a plug wire. The wide band will tell me if the wire is compromised, before I even get a hint of a miss while seat of the pants tuning.

To be very honest, I lack the necessary carb tuning skills to even guess at the proper carb set up without a wide band. Because of the way modern fuels are today , don't tell me you can "read plugs" with a flash light and magnifying glass. You can use a magnifying glass, I will use a wide band.

While if your budget allows, a dyno and a stopwatch are very hard to beat as the king of tuning tools.

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: ToddP] #1126070
12/03/11 12:15 AM
12/03/11 12:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,682
Philadelphia
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radar Offline
top fuel
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Posts: 1,682
Philadelphia
I'm with the guys saying it is invaluable for a street tune. Especially for me because I first really dove into carb tuning around the same time I got one. It's pretty easy to tune for wot reading plugs and idle with a vac gauge but it took the wideband to tell me my idle feed restrictions were too big for off idle cruising.

I used to drive on the highway to work every day and it kept my plugs clean. When I moved near work I turned into the guy changing plugs every week. Should I have seen my four corner idle settings at 3/4 turn out each as a sign of a large IFR? Probably, but I'm kinda new at this stuff.

I also like how it shows any clogged carb problems etc and I can just clean out the bowl and block instead of chasing my tail.

Having said all that, once I get my carb dialed in to my new cam I'll be taking that crazy arcade lightshow out and finishing the tune on the track.

Rdr

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: sixpackgut] #1126071
12/03/11 12:23 AM
12/03/11 12:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Big Squeeze Offline
pro stock
Big Squeeze  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Quote:

Quote:

I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when your PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......




while i agree with everything your saying, it still does not makes things perfect

example, NASCAR says the reason they are going to FI is because the motor needs to be jetted much richer then it actually needs to be because G forces will make the whole left bank lean. what good would a LM1 plugged into the rght bank of a fast roundy round car do? melt and detonate the whole left bank

if I was to tune my engine on a chassis dyno, it would be completely different than my car going down the track. my front carbs are jettd 6 sizes larger than the rear. how many guys here would do that?

PPMracing that is building Mr Sixpack's new engine has said the same thing about what i'm saying.

the only real tool that would really work is having EGTs in each cylinder.

and BTW, and Dram can back this up because i called him immediately, I was so pissed when i put my LM1 on my car because it said i was spot on everywhere from tuning at the track and looking at plugs.




I agree too that it doesn't make it perfect.... neither does reading plugs when you're trying to tune the driveability of a motor.....

OK......I wasn't talking NASCAR ......I'm talking getting a car tuned to where it's as driveable as possible.......Have the NASCAR guys run an O2 in every header tube?? I'm assuming they have??? That would be MUCH better than EGT's IMHO........

I can take a car that's got a brand new combo and tune it to be very close to ideal just by knowing what numbers to shoot for from past experience with similar combos.......then I go to the track and jet the end carbs for max ET and trap speed.....

The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front versus where you'd jetted it with the O2? Point being that 98% of the guys I build motors for, that drive fairly regularly on the street, would never see that difference or feel it in the ass-dyno, since 99% of the time the car is moving it's seeing less than 1.2 G's .......but I have taken a LOT of cars and made them feel like they have fuel injection while driving around because of how smooth they transition......and that's what I use it for....

Something else that's great about O2's (and this is for you too, Quicktree ) Once you dial your car in......and you see what A/F your motor likes, when you go to really bad or really good air, you can shoot for that number to get you into the ballpark really quick.......same goes for nitrous.......when you hit the button, you can shoot for that same number where it was running it's best trap speeds naturally aspirated (or even leaner sometimes because of less fuel fallout since the motor revs faster)........it makes getting there a lot faster.......

Quote:

how have you applied this to bracket racing? I guess I am one of those guys that don't give a flip whats going on as long as the car repeats lap after lap. that's what wins races/money not having a perfect tune. I could care less about being politically correct. I give mine what it wants to make it run the number. but I would like to know what the LM1 says just from curiosity. bring your dang gizmo down and spend a day at the track




Like I mentioned, there really isn't going to be a huge gain for most drag race only cars if the guy has an idea how to tune......

I like my motors to run as cleanly as possible....most guys have no idea how rich or lean their motors are while running down the track......How many times have you heard a guy say their "motor was running great all year and all of a sudden it torched a head gasket" or whatever??.......

I know that most bracket racers don't tune their stuff (they bolt the carb on, set the idle mixture to where it idles it's best and run it).....they're just like most street rod guys........as long as their car fires up and makes it to the local cruise in/car show without leaving them stranded on the road, they're happy with how it runs.....

Like already mentioned.....I also use it as a safety/alert device ......It tells me instantly if the A/F is still where it needs to be or if something else is going on......

Something else about O2's......It's fairly common knowledge that as the motor goes up through the rpm range, you don't need as much fuel since there's less fuel fallout with that extra air speed, so you can watch the fuel curve and tune a curve into your motor with air bleeds that gets anywhere from .5 to 1 full point leaner as it goes up.....


If you can't handle the truth, you're living a lie.......
Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126072
12/03/11 01:15 AM
12/03/11 01:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406 Offline
I Live Here
RobX4406  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
I guess the question is do you want it repeatable running clean or not.

I know one car that ran spot on time, run after run, was only launching at about 10.7-11:1 AF. Just a tad rich. WOT was perfect. Think that is a good situation. Even if it is, is that acceptable?

Once the rich condition was addressed, the car launched even more consistently and picked up 60'. Still ran lap after lap on slightly better number. Any drawback there?

I bet the engine will last longer too not having to huff through that pig rich area waiting on the lights.

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: RobX4406] #1126073
12/03/11 02:44 AM
12/03/11 02:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion
sixpackgut  Offline
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Charleston
Quote:


The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front




7mph


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: BradH] #1126074
12/03/11 02:56 AM
12/03/11 02:56 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
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master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
I don't own one, but would like to.
I use the wideband O2 at the chassis dyno.
It lets you know right away of your tuning is off, and what the fuel curve looks like through the RPM range. Also makes tuning easier and faster. One of the beat ways to tune a street car that does not goto the track. The Charger that I race, I will make tuning changes at the track, but at least I know the baseline tune will not damage the engine.

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: sixpackgut] #1126075
12/03/11 03:03 AM
12/03/11 03:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis Offline
I Live Here
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Great Neck,LI,new york
Wayne,what ith difference between EGT's & o/2's in each cylinder.I had bungs intalled in each tube for egt's and did not get to use them on dyno day.


HEMI-ITIS has no cure.
My condition is fully BLOWN!!
Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: sixpackgut] #1126076
12/03/11 10:41 AM
12/03/11 10:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Big Squeeze Offline
pro stock
Big Squeeze  Offline
pro stock

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Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Quote:

Quote:


The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front




7mph




What's the whole story? You jetted the end carbs to get it to run the best it could, then looked at the O2 to see what it showed? then started reading the plugs and stagger jetting and it picked up 7MPH??

Or, did you just jet the end carbs to get it to read a certain number on the O2, like mid 12's.....and then started reading plugs and stagger jetting to got it to pick up 7MPH??

I'm also assuming the air was basically the same throughout all this too??

Quote:

Wayne,what ith difference between EGT's & o/2's in each cylinder.I had bungs intalled in each tube for egt's and did not get to use them on dyno day.




I've got EGT's on my car too (mainly because they came with the used RacePak I'd bought), but they're really only there to tell you if you've got a dead hole either because of a plug wire, cracked plug or bad coil on that cylinder.........even Top Fuel guys will tell you they're basically useless for tuning.....it just tells them exactly when it dropped a cylinder......

Something else to think about.......Your motor may not necessarily want all the EGT's or even O2 readings cylinder to cylinder to be exactly the same.........especially in the case of a Six Pack where it's got a dual plane intake.....end cylinders typically run hotter........the right bank typically runs hotter than the left bank.....longer runners and runners with more of a bend typically need more fuel.......now throw in the G forces of the car launching and running down the track (like Ray mentioned) and it's crazy what it takes to tune that especially when you have 3 jets per back to tune with ........


If you can't handle the truth, you're living a lie.......
Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126077
12/03/11 11:07 AM
12/03/11 11:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,005
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
master
Bad340fish  Offline
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Tulsa OK
I just recently installed one in my car. I will be learning alot of IFRs and air bleeds I can already tell.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126078
12/03/11 11:21 AM
12/03/11 11:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
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sshemi Offline
top fuel
sshemi  Offline
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sweden
if one can tune fsater & better NOT useing it im ¤#"!"#%&#" impressed.
Sure it doesnt show bad parts (plugs, wires etc) but i think that my 10+ years experience can.

Aldough i look at the plugs also once in a while because it is a tool that CAN break.

Also tuneing for max mph is not perfect either, you can have a lean & a rich mix somewhere in the rpm range at the same time.

If i was to be 250 years old i guess it isnt nessecary(sp)

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126079
12/03/11 11:41 AM
12/03/11 11:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion
sixpackgut  Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Charleston
Quote:

What's the whole story? You jetted the end carbs to get it to run the best it could, then looked at the O2 to see what it showed? then started reading the plugs and stagger jetting and it picked up 7MPH??

Or, did you just jet the end carbs to get it to read a certain number on the O2, like mid 12's.....and then started reading plugs and stagger jetting to got it to pick up 7MPH??






after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT. then went a Dyno day and drove over there and i made 540 whp but it was reading a 14-1 but a cold front had moved in and it was freezing so i knew i would be going to the track soon. plugs looked good. made a few passes and it wasnt to impressive. AF was in the 13s. so i pulled all the plugs, and the rears had dark color. fronts plugs were bone white. so i just threw abunch of numbers at it. then again. then again. went from 103 to 110mph.

only at the track would this show this. wot on the street really wouldnt because your not really going anywhere. just wasting rubber

after the smoke settled, i think i started with 84s in the outboards to 89front 82 rears. and i may have added a number to the center carb. something lke that

and this looks normal compared to the weiand cross ram that had huge differences all over.


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: sixpackgut] #1126080
12/03/11 12:01 PM
12/03/11 12:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Big Squeeze Offline
pro stock
Big Squeeze  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Quote:


after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT......




What do you mean by it "read perfect"??

What does the O2 show now??


If you can't handle the truth, you're living a lie.......
Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: Big Squeeze] #1126081
12/03/11 12:35 PM
12/03/11 12:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion
sixpackgut  Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
Quote:

Quote:


after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT......




What do you mean by it "read perfect"??

What does the O2 show now??




it reads the same thing now as it did when i first tried it. 14 at cruise. 12.5-13 at WOT. thats my whole point. what it says on the street and chassis dyno doesnt reflect what will happen at the track.

my good friend buider and tuner of some really fast cars, leaning on my fender, pointed at the numbers on the top of my carbs and said, not many guys would do that.

i would like to know, if guys ever looked at the old jetting tips from the old engine manual. popsicle sticks and jetting all over

I'm sorry if some dont believe me. i'm just trying to be helpful. i'll crawl back in my hole now


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: quick77rt ] #1126082
12/03/11 12:36 PM
12/03/11 12:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Q
Quicktree Offline
I Win
Quicktree  Offline
I Win
Q

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Posts: 32,394

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: sixpackgut] #1126083
12/03/11 12:52 PM
12/03/11 12:52 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
451Mopar  Offline
master

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
The main difference between the drag strip and street/chassis dyno tune is the acceleration G-forces. With the Holley on my Charger, I have blocked the rear power valve and jetted up using jet extentions and the notched float.
Depending on the fuel system, it may also reduce fuel pressure under acceleration, all the above would tend to lean out the carb when racing.

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? [Re: BradH] #1126084
12/03/11 01:00 PM
12/03/11 01:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,917
NC
440Jim Offline
I Live Here
440Jim  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,917
NC
I really like my wide band oxygen sensor system.
IMO, you need the recording ability to analyze the data, not just looking at a guage while you try to drive. But glancing at some numbers while driving in the pits or changing throttle settings (street) is useful while recording.

It is just a tool, there is no magic number and every combo will like slightly different numbers; but good ranges are availble. One of the best things I like is confirmation that the change I made actually had the result I was looking for, that doesn't happen 100% of the time. Like changing the jets, sometimes the A/F change is too small to make a difference, or larger than expected. Also, a misfire may not be noticed by the driver, but the spike in A/F shows up on the recording. The recording helps define the A/F change with RPM, throttle position, etc.

Use this tool with all the others to make the best decisions. Spark plug reading, timeslips, etc. even the smell of the exhaust at idle!


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
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