how much oil do I really need?
#1118199
11/21/11 09:47 AM
11/21/11 09:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,403
WASHINGTON, PA
11secaarcuda
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,403
WASHINGTON, PA
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Is it necessary to have a "deep" or extra capacity oil pan?
My engine is a typical 408 sb with about 500 hp and will be a street/strip engine. I don't want a deep hanging oil pan, and I don't really want to spend $400-500 for a "road race" style pan with the baffles and all that.
Will a Milodon stock capacity pan with the internal baffles work for me?
67 Dart GT 340 4 speed
70 AAR Cuda 408 6 barrel
96 Indy Ram original owner
2011 Hemi Durango
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Re: how much oil do I really need?
[Re: Sixpak]
#1118204
11/21/11 02:56 PM
11/21/11 02:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,896
St. Louis, MO
Blues_Cuda
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,896
St. Louis, MO
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Quote:
Lots of NHRA stockers running near or in the 9's with a stock pan, but are also using baffles, crank scrapers and mesh type windage trays. So no, it's not necessary to have a real deep pan; just get the oil back downstairs as fast as you can and away from or off the crank. I've heard over the years that many stocker guys toss the stock windage tray as it doesn't drain fast enough and instead use the mesh type. Grinding/smoothing drain back holes for casting flash and smoothing oil returns in the head and valley can't hurt either. A valley tray also helps keep the oil off the bottom of the intake and redirects any splash from the cam back downstairs.
Have you ever asked the guys running those NHRA stockers how little oil they run in their engine? The answer might shock you. 
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Re: how much oil do I really need?
[Re: 11secaarcuda]
#1118207
11/21/11 03:24 PM
11/21/11 03:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,985
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Who built the motor and what do they recommend? First thing I see is 500 hp and 408 cubes. That tells me you are going to spin this motor up some.
Not being familiar with small blocks, my first question would be what oil viscosity you are going to run. Anything higher than stock, combined with lose bearing clearances is going to require more capacity. Actually either will change the situation, engine clearances being the bigger problem. It would be great if you could have some capacity added by adding a kick out on the pan if you have room. Skid plates could be used to protect a deeper pan if you decide you need more clearance.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: how much oil do I really need?
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#1118209
11/21/11 05:24 PM
11/21/11 05:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lots of NHRA stockers running near or in the 9's with a stock pan, but are also using baffles, crank scrapers and mesh type windage trays. So no, it's not necessary to have a real deep pan; just get the oil back downstairs as fast as you can and away from or off the crank. I've heard over the years that many stocker guys toss the stock windage tray as it doesn't drain fast enough and instead use the mesh type. Grinding/smoothing drain back holes for casting flash and smoothing oil returns in the head and valley can't hurt either. A valley tray also helps keep the oil off the bottom of the intake and redirects any splash from the cam back downstairs.
Have you ever asked the guys running those NHRA stockers how little oil they run in their engine? The answer might shock you.
Yeah and the weight of the oil will shock you even more... But to eek out the last bit of horsepower they take chances... Do you really want to rebuild the bottom end after every race... I've never heard of an engine blowing up because it had to much oil unless it was some idiot that put eight quarts in a five quart pan... Put a pan designed for 7+ & run six... 
I heard when they are going for a record they will really push it for every ounce of power. But I dont think they run it that low all of the time ?  At least I would only push it that far when trying to set a record. Ron
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Re: how much oil do I really need?
[Re: 383man]
#1118210
11/21/11 05:32 PM
11/21/11 05:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
maximum entropy
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Joined: Feb 2007
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organ
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and as far as the "high volume" debate goes, the high volume pump is not going to deliver more volume unless the engine needs it. at a given pressure, low and high volume pumps will deliver the same amount of oil (assuming the low volume pump can keep up with demand).
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
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Re: how much oil do I really need?
[Re: maximum entropy]
#1118211
11/21/11 05:48 PM
11/21/11 05:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
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 A typical Mopar HV rotor is 20 or 25% larger (taller) so on every revolution is going to displace (move) that much more oil. I understand that the bypass spring can come into play as far as demand, I'm sure that's what you're referring to  In a fluid circuit inside the motor you have controlled bleeds (main bearings, rod bearings, valvetrain rocker shafts, lifter galley, etc) which correspond to volume losses and pressure drops which accumulate back into the sump. Increased bearing diameters increase the p losses (controlled bleeds) in the system. There are seriesed (rear to front on a sb crank and front to rear on a BB crank) and parrallel pressure drops along the way. When RPM demands and bleed rates exceed delivered rate of the supply is when you start getting into problems.And in series losses (by definition) the next one in line sees less supply pressure than the one that fed it, so in a way of thinking about it...'adequate' volume and pressure really refers to adequate minimums to the last pieces in line...i.e, furthest from the supply Porting the passageways (EX: on a SB I always open the #5 main and the pump passage to 1/2") reduces restrictions and pressure drops before the first controlled bleed and porting the pump itself makes it work more efficiently (just like porting the head of an engine) under high demands. Returning oil to the sump more efficiently is one of the main ways racers can get by with reducing sump volume, thinner oil obviously bleeds back faster as well. Once W2's came out the RPM's went way up and we soon discovered that windage trays on small blocks can cuase issues as they typically didn't have sufficeint baffling to retern oil to the sump...and as a relult oil would puddle in the shelf for the crank to dip the counterwieghts in and became more of a problem than the roping problem they were designed to relieve. We tossed them and our et's dropped.
Last edited by Streetwize; 11/21/11 06:49 PM.
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Re: how much oil do I really need?
[Re: Streetwize]
#1118212
11/21/11 06:10 PM
11/21/11 06:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
emarine01
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nc
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