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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: smokinwoody]
#1109420
11/08/11 06:05 PM
11/08/11 06:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
bigfork mn
dragram440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,058
bigfork mn
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I think you do have to go to main studs which means you have to have it line bored on the mains.
67' charger 499 RB
10.57 at 127
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: dragram440]
#1109421
11/08/11 07:55 PM
11/08/11 07:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
maximum entropy
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
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imo, any girdle is a good idea on any bb mopar. i've installed a bunch of 'em from various suppliers- chenoweth, source, mancini, bcr. i prefer the drop in units. the bcr was a lot of work, as the machine shops in my area were unable to handle the machine work necessary. it is a very nice piece, but overkill in my estimation.
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: maximum entropy]
#1109422
11/08/11 08:31 PM
11/08/11 08:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
bonefish
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,274
s.w.fl
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i use the one from mike at chenoweth,bolts right in
Last edited by bonefish; 11/08/11 08:31 PM.
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: blracing]
#1109424
11/08/11 08:51 PM
11/08/11 08:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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Quote:
the one i found is from chenoweth girdles. the phone # is 626-869-0270. it was on racing junk awhile back. i hope this helps!sorry i don't have anymore info! the price was 425.00.
thats CRE....yeah the studs and all the fastners come with it...be kinda expensive just for a metal plate...  
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: nss guy]
#1109428
11/08/11 11:15 PM
11/08/11 11:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,590
Indy
joshking440
Lunch is on me!
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Lunch is on me!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,590
Indy
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Quote:
How much clearance between the oil pan and center drag link with the girdle installed?
it moves the pan down .550 if i remember correctly
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: Labratt]
#1109430
11/09/11 02:41 AM
11/09/11 02:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
StrokerAspen
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
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Hey Randy.... When I am not making decals..... I am making engine girdles.  want me to get a BB dodge girdle together to send down with the decals I am doing for you? -Kenny
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: joshking440]
#1109433
11/09/11 05:24 AM
11/09/11 05:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,039
Mooresburg, Tn
'72CudaRacer
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,039
Mooresburg, Tn
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Quote:
if you are going to use a girdle, the only one worth buying is the bcr piece in my opinion.
Becareful of the type that use washers and spacers to make up the difference between the mains and the pan rail as those really dont do what you are looking to accomplish
Josh, what does the BRC one do that the others don't. I got one from Hughes on mine and it uses spacers and shims between the plate and the main studs.
Thanks,
Brian Dunnigan
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: Labratt]
#1109437
11/09/11 12:02 PM
11/09/11 12:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
... A few people have suggested that at my power level,I REALLY don't need one...
You're pretty close to the power level where I was seeing clear evidence of cap walking w/ only OEM caps and studs. Do you absolutely have to have something beyond that? No. Would it be a good idea to add some insurance? IMO, yes.
The CRE kit is nice (I have one that I haven't actually used, yet), but their competitors came out later w/ comparable products for less money. Hughes or whomever can provide you w/ a viable option, since IMO (again) the BCR approach (  ) is overkill for your application. As pointed out by others, if you don't have main studs installed in your current build, they do say you'll need to align hone everything w/ the new studs to ensure cap location.
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: bcrproducts]
#1109439
11/09/11 12:44 PM
11/09/11 12:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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Quote:
Hi Guys
I am in the works again to handing the product line to another well respected Moparts machinist. The first time did not work out and that was a major setback. CRE is no longer in business I guess the times have been hard on Mike and Dale. There website went down a while back and have not heard a thing from them in months. So the only option for a true bolt in Girdle kit that will truly do what is is supposed to is the one Tom myself Dan and a few others designed here a few years ago and that is the BCRproducts one. Being in Canada was just too much work shipping to the US and sourcing all the components neede to build this setup. I promise this time it will happen and the guy who is taking BCRproducts over has a great reputation and has build some very custom parts for all of us who love BB Mopars. That is is about all I can do to hint who as it is not my place yet to disclose the new manufacturer. I will do all the preinspects to ensure quality control so it will happen and the pieces will be of the same quality as before.
Greg
glad to hear this Greg...I would like to have your product...I definitely like the way the main caps are tied into the block using the stout girdle to tie it all in as a unit...
when can we see these units hitting the street and how do we order or is this forthcoming when the secret(kidding) manufacturer has em made..
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: BradH]
#1109443
11/09/11 05:04 PM
11/09/11 05:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,970
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,970
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Not being a machinist, I'm curious why you need to have the main caps align honed when switching from bolts to studs, considering the caps fit into the main registers and the hardware is just there to strap 'em down. Yeah, I know, that's an over-simplified view... but still.
Brad , I'm pretty sure haven't looked at the spec in some time, that the studs use a higher torque spec, this is what distorts the main bore and caps.
That said I did put studs in and didn't have the bottom end touched. I assembled the engine, crank spun freely, but I never ran it. Since then that mistake on my part has been corrected on the subsequent build using the same block, but I also changed the main caps to ductile pieces.
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: JohnRR]
#1109445
11/09/11 07:53 PM
11/09/11 07:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
maximum entropy
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
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Quote:
Quote:
Not being a machinist, I'm curious why you need to have the main caps align honed when switching from bolts to studs, considering the caps fit into the main registers and the hardware is just there to strap 'em down. Yeah, I know, that's an over-simplified view... but still.
Brad , I'm pretty sure haven't looked at the spec in some time, that the studs use a higher torque spec, this is what distorts the main bore and caps.
That said I did put studs in and didn't have the bottom end touched. I assembled the engine, crank spun freely, but I never ran it. Since then that mistake on my part has been corrected on the subsequent build using the same block, but I also changed the main caps to ductile pieces.
same here. i just finished one that didn't need align honing. it checked darn fine. the addition of studs and girdle didn't change a thing. on this one, anyway.
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: maximum entropy]
#1109446
11/09/11 08:09 PM
11/09/11 08:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,970
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,970
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Not being a machinist, I'm curious why you need to have the main caps align honed when switching from bolts to studs, considering the caps fit into the main registers and the hardware is just there to strap 'em down. Yeah, I know, that's an over-simplified view... but still.
Brad , I'm pretty sure haven't looked at the spec in some time, that the studs use a higher torque spec, this is what distorts the main bore and caps.
That said I did put studs in and didn't have the bottom end touched. I assembled the engine, crank spun freely, but I never ran it. Since then that mistake on my part has been corrected on the subsequent build using the same block, but I also changed the main caps to ductile pieces.
same here. i just finished one that didn't need align honing. it checked darn fine. the addition of studs and girdle didn't change a thing. on this one, anyway.
It checked darn fine ??? Meaning it's close enough to call it good ? I never checked the housing bore, didn't have the tools then. What was the torque spec of the studs vs. the bolts?
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: BradH]
#1109448
11/10/11 01:34 AM
11/10/11 01:34 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
If your main caps are still installed w/ bolts rather than studs, I don't think there is anything you can do that will just bolt on to increase the bottom end reliability.
Not being a machinist, I'm curious why you need to have the main caps align honed when switching from bolts to studs, considering the caps fit into the main registers and the hardware is just there to strap 'em down. Yeah, I know, that's an over-simplified view... but still.
The reason studs typically change the bore is because they use more of the threads in the block than bolts do. It doesn't always happen, but is a good idea to check. I'm not a believer in stud girdles that don't touch the center of the cap. The crank is trying to push the cap down and it tends to oblong the bearing cap. Having a girdle does nothing to stop this unless it's actually pressing against the cap in the center. This is why splayed caps work so well on engines that can use them. The bolts pre stress the caps by pulling them in a direction different than the direction the crank is trying to push them.
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#1109450
11/10/11 11:23 AM
11/10/11 11:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
bcrproducts
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
Quote:
If your main caps are still installed w/ bolts rather than studs, I don't think there is anything you can do that will just bolt on to increase the bottom end reliability.
Not being a machinist, I'm curious why you need to have the main caps align honed when switching from bolts to studs, considering the caps fit into the main registers and the hardware is just there to strap 'em down. Yeah, I know, that's an over-simplified view... but still.
The reason studs typically change the bore is because they use more of the threads in the block than bolts do. It doesn't always happen, but is a good idea to check. I'm not a believer in stud girdles that don't touch the center of the cap. The crank is trying to push the cap down and it tends to oblong the bearing cap. Having a girdle does nothing to stop this unless it's actually pressing against the cap in the center. This is why splayed caps work so well on engines that can use them. The bolts pre stress the caps by pulling them in a direction different than the direction the crank is trying to push them.
Have to totally dissagree with this part of your comment "Having a girdle does nothing to stop this unless it's actually pressing against the cap in the center." Tying the whole bottom end together via our system has huge strength benefits. I work as a trainer for the industry and discuss engine technology with some of the brightest engineers in the world and all have agreed that a well designed cap and girdle "system" adds significant strength to the bottom end. Just look at any modular OEM type of girdle sytemsm none of them have a plate that touches the top of the cap in the center. If you understood how engines load the caps you would realize that a girdle no matter how thick touching in the center does little to nothing in the deflection of reciprocating or linear loading. The girdle is there to stop movement mainly in load paths before and beyond vertical when the power stroke is at it's highest in regards to load path shock. Remember after about 40 degrees after TDC the power stroke is done--think about the angle the rod is on at that point and the load path direction. The average Honda Civic exerts a load of approx 2200 psi on the head of a piston on the power stroke. Times that at least by two to four for a v8 race engine and you can see why the advantages are there with a truly built system. I agree most girdles are useless such as the Mancini CRE and others as they do little to tie the whole system together. They do work but with little benefit comparitively.
Just me two cents 
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: BradH]
#1109463
11/11/11 05:22 PM
11/11/11 05:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
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OK, so, horizontally, not vertically relative to the crank centerline.
I like the theory behind why splayed 4 bolt set-ups work.
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: Labratt]
#1109468
11/13/11 04:16 PM
11/13/11 04:16 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: 69darthulk]
#1109469
11/13/11 08:13 PM
11/13/11 08:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 501
ONTARIO,CANADA
604 Hemi GTX
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 501
ONTARIO,CANADA
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Quote:
I used the kit from 440 source. Low deck making around 700hp and am very happy with how it's holding up. Had the machine shop set it up and line hone it. They were nice enough to mark the shims for when I reasembled it.
http://store.440source.com/Main-Stud-Girdles/products/135/
Just wondering how the 440 source main girdle would work with aluminum main caps. I see he sell the kit, just wondering
Kevin
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: BradH]
#1109471
11/14/11 12:59 AM
11/14/11 12:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Not being a machinist, I'm curious why you need to have the main caps align honed when switching from bolts to studs, considering the caps fit into the main registers and the hardware is just there to strap 'em down. Yeah, I know, that's an over-simplified view... but still.
IMO, The distortion issue of the extra torque value is minimal. The studs extra shank diameter vs the bolts shank diameter is what can kick the main registers out of skew. Ive seen it, you wouldnt think it could happen but it does.
The simple finger nail test will catch it. Now it catches , before it didnt.
Yeah, I know, thats's an over-simplified view... but still. 
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: ]
#1109472
11/14/11 02:09 AM
11/14/11 02:09 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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Quote:
Quote:
That BCR set-up is one STOUT looking piece!
That's the unit I have as well.
thats why I want one to replace the CRE unit that I have...mine uses the stock caps...I want the extra beef and I like the main caps going web to web adding to the rigidity..
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: rowin4]
#1109473
11/14/11 11:53 AM
11/14/11 11:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,066
Mo.
racerx
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,066
Mo.
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Quote:
Quote:
heres a pic of BCR's girdle/main caps assembly
It's such a nice piece it's a shame to cover it up with the oil pan.
That is a pretty piece wonder what that setup would cost ya. 
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Re: BOTTOM-END GIRDLE KIT???
[Re: joshking440]
#1109475
11/14/11 12:20 PM
11/14/11 12:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,066
Mo.
racerx
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,066
Mo.
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Quote:
If i remember correctly I paid around 850 dollars for the main caps and girdle but I could be off a few bucks
That is a nice pease..but if i was to do another bullet i'll just in vest that 850.00 in a new block.Speaking of blocks any testing made with the new b-block yet 
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Randy B. 
Thanks again JOSH...Kevin..and my Moparts brethren! 
Please send me a PM with all the details! Thanks,Buddy! 
![6913350-dg06[1].jpg](/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/114870/filename/6913350-dg06[1].jpg){kind=link}