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318 build with RHS heads .. opinions #1101836
10/26/11 07:14 AM
10/26/11 07:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
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North Carolina
Gohot Offline OP
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I'm new to the forum, but not to the site. I'v found great information here, and a group of people second to none. No 'stupid' questions thrown back at ya.

I hope you can guide me then with a low budget build that I'm about to start ordering parts for. My vehicle is an 84 Ramcharger two by four, and I chose it mainly because of 'looks' and being the rear drive only configuration. The plan beyond nice wheels and tires 'fat, skinnies' was to build the motor, a 74 Dodge Dart 318. I had envisioned the block prep, utalizing KB 167's zero deck, stock cast crank 'likely' and the RHS heads in the 'LA' version. Hugh's was looking like a good source. With the heads, the manifold was not yet chosen, nor was the camshaft. You should know the Ramcharger weigh's in at about 4200 lbs possibly a scoush more, but I'll be working on that later, hoping for around 38-3900 lbs. A 904 with around 355 gears. Currently it's a 2.94-1.... 8 1/4 rear, but I'm working on getting a 9". Ok back to the motor.... it will go .030 over with the KB's and I'm thinking in the range of 500 lift, and and Eddy Airgap, with a 600-650 cfm Holley, with port matching, into Hooker Comps with the 2.5" collector, out through psuedo AAR Cuda type front of tire dumps. With the small valve RHS heads on a motor like this, without stroking, will the motor perform well, and can I expect to approach 400 hp? or more? Of course, I hate to say it, but I'm a camshaft idiot, It's a science that appears more 'magic' to me than VooDoo. I know this will probably require a 'Stall' converter and maybe the matching flex plate, but I may be able to come up with an 883 4 speed and assembly too. That's an after though at the moment though. I'v spent countless hours all over the web looking at the strengths of the RHS heads, and other than the 'CHINA' thing, and the different years of the good head production, only see possatives with using them. So the question.... a first bore 318 with KB 167's maybe K1 H beams and the afore mentioned combo. I realize my cast crank would be the weak link, but I expect to shift at torque rather than horse power which usually comes in 5-800 rpm lower, thus sparing the rotating assembly some. 400 to 450 hp the goal. Realistically, 400 really. Thanks for your opinions, and feel free to correct my thinking if need be....... Rich.


Slow awake, Fast asleep......
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: Gohot] #1101837
10/26/11 08:45 AM
10/26/11 08:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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I am not sure, but I *think* the RHS heads are cast in either Australia or New Zeeland, (and enginequests are done in whatever of those 2 countries RHS's arent) it's pro-comps that are chinese

my

if building a 318 block, I'd ONLY start with '85 up core, as they have factory roller cams (2bbl cars) or at least provisions to use factory roller lifters.

400-450HP in a stock stroke naturally aspirated 318 is possible, but unrealistic for your overall desires, as it will be a very wild, high winding motor, not something that will be pleasing for a hot street driver. 300-350HP is much more realistic.

my ultra budget 318 is: a stock '86 318 short block, reringed, stock magnum heads redrilled to LA bolt pattern hughes #1110 valve springs, stock (used) magnum roller lifters, reground stock roller cam by bullet cams using their HR259/316 lobe for intake and exhaust, summit 1 5/8" headers, eddie air gap, eddie 1406 600cfm carb. 9:1 calculated compression. realistically I'd place it in the 300-325hp range. in my 3950 (without me) lb 5th avenue running an A500 and 3.55's, it will keep up with an AWD chrysler 300C hemi from a 20mph roll. it's quite entertaining. bump the heads up a little with the better flowing RHS or enginequests, and the roller cam up into the 224@.050 range and .550" lift or so, you'll see probably an honest 375hp, but the torque will be much higher in the RPM range and you'd need a pretty high stall converter and/or more gears.

realistically, stock rods with new bolts will be more than adequate for this power level.

the nice thing about the roller cam is this: my cam has 30 degrees less overlap than a comp XE262, 10 degrees less duration at .050 lobe lift, but only 3 degrees less at .2" lobe lift, and .008" more lobe lift (and .044" more gross calculated lift using the magnum rockers) than the same comp.

IF you realistically want more HP and torque, I'd start with either a magnum 360 (again, due to the roller cam) or start looking at a SCAT 4" cast crank in either the 318 or the 360. that give you more displacement, and more torque. peak power will also be lower in the rev range.

and personally, especially if you don't have an intake yet, I'd use the magnum version of the RHS's over the LA version, or either version of the enginequest heads to use the magnum pedestal mount rockers. once you start looking at aftermarket rockers, good quality magnum pedestal/stud mount are much, much cheaper than good quality LA style shaft mounts. if using stock rockers, the magnums are rated at 1.6, I've read they actually measure out sometimes closer to 1.65, while the LA's are rated at 1.5, but actually measure out more like 1.4-1.45....this means more valve lift for a given lobe lift, and more lift typically means more power.


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: Gohot] #1101838
10/26/11 08:49 AM
10/26/11 08:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
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The Great White North
RAMM Offline
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Quick reply Rich for ya Rich. Use the EQ (Enginequest) ch318b's they are Magnums that are less $$$ and perform better out of the box with no porting. They are torque producing monsters. With that being said I would get a 360 crank and turn down the mains to 318 size and use a cheap $$$ cast piston with a little off the top--it can be done. Now you have 349 cubes and cammed right should make an easy 430-440 hp but more importantly will make tons of torque somewhere around 450 ft./lbs. Use the RPM Air-Gap and you will have a cheap but fun and awesome engine. I am building one for myself actually. Hope this helps J.Rob p.s. Check the link if you want to hear a 360 with EQ magnums on the dyno. 360 Magnum on dyno


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Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: RAMM] #1101839
10/26/11 09:19 AM
10/26/11 09:19 AM
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Not2farfromNashville, TN
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I have a roller 360 LA non Magnum. How is the cams in those engines?

Mine has a hole and cam lobe for a mechanical fuel pump.


"The only thing to do for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

"NUNQUAM NON PARATUS!"
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: Rug_Trucker] #1101840
10/26/11 10:16 AM
10/26/11 10:16 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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I believe you're shooting your self in the foot going with a 318 in that heavy of a beast and that your horsepower expectations are unreasonable. I would highly suggest as mentioned to start with a 360 at the bare minimum plus the 4" stroker crank would be much better (cheap cast cast is fine after checking it out) or maybe a better cast crank. I can guarantee if you could ahead of time evision the different results you'll end up with between the two that you would not regret your decision (to forget the 318). Good luck with it & holler later on how it goes (& in between with any Q's)


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: Rug_Trucker] #1101841
10/26/11 11:16 AM
10/26/11 11:16 AM
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Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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Quote:

I have a roller 360 LA non Magnum. How is the cams in those engines?

Mine has a hole and cam lobe for a mechanical fuel pump.




dinky but can be reground or replaced and still use the stock roller lifters.

interesting about the mech. fuel pump...all of the roller cam LA360's AFAIK were TBI


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: RapidRobert] #1101842
10/26/11 11:18 AM
10/26/11 11:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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Quote:

I believe you're shooting your self in the foot going with a 318 in that heavy of a beast and that your horsepower expectations are unreasonable. I would highly suggest as mentioned to start with a 360 at the bare minimum plus the 4" stroker crank would be much better (cheap cast cast is fine after checking it out) or maybe a better cast crank. I can guarantee if you could ahead of time evision the different results you'll end up with between the two that you would not regret your decision (to forget the 318). Good luck with it & holler later on how it goes (& in between with any Q's)




not necessarily foot shooting...I pulled a comp XE262 equipped LA360 for my magnum head/roller cam 318 and couldn't be happier. power is about the same, drivability better,and I get almost 20% better fuel economy...and my car is near 4200lbs with me in it (car weighs about 3950, I weigh about 225)...never had it to the track, but I'd guess it's a mid 14 second ride.

but year, 450 HP out of any naturally aspirated LA/magnum based engine with less than 390 cubes is somewhat unrealistic in a street biased application.

I do wonder how my ultra budget 318 would work with EFI and a rear mounted turbo....if it's making 300hp/tq (reasonable estimate), then 8psi of boost should make 450/450....

Last edited by patrick; 10/26/11 11:22 AM.

1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: patrick] #1101843
10/26/11 11:26 AM
10/26/11 11:26 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

I pulled a comp XE262 equipped LA360 for my magnum head/roller cam 318 and couldn't be happier. power is about the same, drivability better,and I get almost 20% better fuel economy.


That says alot for mag heads/roller cam EDIT was the DCR pretty close

Last edited by RapidRobert; 10/26/11 11:29 AM.

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Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: RapidRobert] #1101844
10/26/11 11:55 AM
10/26/11 11:55 AM
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IL, Aurora
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ademon Offline
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i too would look for a 360, you need torque.

Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: RapidRobert] #1101845
10/26/11 06:29 PM
10/26/11 06:29 PM
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Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I pulled a comp XE262 equipped LA360 for my magnum head/roller cam 318 and couldn't be happier. power is about the same, drivability better,and I get almost 20% better fuel economy.


That says alot for mag heads/roller cam EDIT was the DCR pretty close




the 318's was higher...static was 9:1, the 360's static was more like 8:1, both had similar intake closing points, the 318's a few degrees later, looking at advertised numbers.


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: patrick] #1101846
10/26/11 08:47 PM
10/26/11 08:47 PM
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ahy Offline
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Aa a "rule of thumb" 1 HP per cubic inch is a good target for a performance build... that's well put together with a warm cam. With a heavy vehicle, you would probably be happier with a more moderatly cammed "torque build" in the 250-275 HP range with a 318. With Magnum or EQ heads it would make a good engine for a Ramcharger... but miss your power target by a lot.

For maximum power on a budget, I think the best approach is to start with a 360 magnum core as several have posted. Depending on condition, you can re-furbish the heads or replace with EQ and build from there. If you found one that didn't need rebuilt, you could make 300 HP easy with a cam and manifold swap.

On the transmission, I do not know what the RC had from the factory. I agree a 904 would work... but a readily available 727 would hold up better in a heavy vehicle, especially if you get power and torque up with a stronger engine.

Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: patrick] #1101847
10/26/11 09:38 PM
10/26/11 09:38 PM
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Not2farfromNashville, TN
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Quote:

interesting about the mech. fuel pump...all of the roller cam LA360's AFAIK were TBI




It was a TBI motor. Let me rephrase, it had a block off plate where the pump went. I would need to drag it out and check for the extra lobe.

IIRC it is a '90. It had 308 heads.

Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: ahy] #1101848
10/27/11 11:08 AM
10/27/11 11:08 AM
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Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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Quote:

Aa a "rule of thumb" 1 HP per cubic inch is a good target for a performance build... that's well put together with a warm cam. With a heavy vehicle, you would probably be happier with a more moderatly cammed "torque build" in the 250-275 HP range with a 318. With Magnum or EQ heads it would make a good engine for a Ramcharger... but miss your power target by a lot.

For maximum power on a budget, I think the best approach is to start with a 360 magnum core as several have posted. Depending on condition, you can re-furbish the heads or replace with EQ and build from there. If you found one that didn't need rebuilt, you could make 300 HP easy with a cam and manifold swap.

On the transmission, I do not know what the RC had from the factory. I agree a 904 would work... but a readily available 727 would hold up better in a heavy vehicle, especially if you get power and torque up with a stronger engine.




actually, the old 300hp crate 360 was just a truck 360 with a 4bbl intake on it....


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: patrick] #1101849
10/27/11 12:23 PM
10/27/11 12:23 PM
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Renton Washington
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Triple Threat Offline
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Start with a 360

Its just a core / starting point change, the parts are wash cost wise and you'll instantly gain 42 cubic inches and a whole bunch of torque.


-Dustin
67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi
68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: Triple Threat] #1101850
10/27/11 01:16 PM
10/27/11 01:16 PM
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Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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if it's truly low budget, start with a good core magnum 318 or 360, something that just at most needs a hone/rering....deck the block to get the pistons .015 or so in the hole (much easier with a 318) and use the thin Mr. gasket head gaskets. then get the roller cam reground to similar specs as mine, hughes #1110 valve springs and junkyard 2.2L retainers, summit headers, and an eddie RPM air gap with a 600-650cfm carb. you'll have 300-330 solid HP for about a grand....


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: 318 build with RHS heads .. opinions [Re: patrick] #1101851
10/27/11 01:40 PM
10/27/11 01:40 PM
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Indiana
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It's often said that a smart path is to find someone who's done what you want to do, then copy what they did.

Patrick knows his Maggies -- and knows how to do it without spending huge $$$.







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