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Closed Chambered Heads
#1098957
10/21/11 11:16 PM
10/21/11 11:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee
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Well, Welcome back race fans, it's time to teach Lindy something again.
I have a set of closed chambered heads. I believe 516's. Larger valves have been installed and the bowls look to have been more than cleaned up and polished. I was thinking about taking them to a shop to have them measure the volume. Prostock1320 and I were discussing them and possibly having the volume checked. What's your take on closed chamber heads? Junk or good?
Lindy
I’m listening.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: ahy]
#1098960
10/22/11 01:16 AM
10/22/11 01:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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Dont take this the wrong way please so here goes.... Basically if there not fully ported it will be a waste of time and money over decently prep'd (non ported late model heads). Im not so sure the head design with low compression pistons will help detonation or not too, might make it worse. Knowing the port volume is a moot point IMO. Ma Mopar knew this that's why the dropped the design. The half point+ in compression means squat when the heads are turds  Its been awhile, but IIRC Dwayne Porter worked a set over and the article was in the tech archives.. but basically it took a bunch over work just to have them on par with the later stock basic preped heads (which had little port work). I have run several sets of these over the years, most have been modified substantially. I switched out a set on a stock 67 383 one time for a decent set of prep'd 346's and the compression I would say dropped way down on that engine, and the car ran a good bit better even still. I guess they are OK for a stock type car or numbers matching game. I dont think I would even run these in a pickup truck where your lugging around towing and such. All this is at a performance stand point.
Last edited by Bob_Coomer; 10/22/11 01:19 AM.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: Big Bad Bee]
#1098961
10/22/11 08:35 AM
10/22/11 08:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,063
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,063
Niles , Ohio
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I ran a set on my 440 for years.They had 2.14 and 1.81 stainless valves.That and I had new guides etc done plus they were opened up.Never had them flowed but they ran great.Now they are on my kids 413 and still going strong.They droped his ET about .3 over his stock heads.This was before aluminum heads were avaliable reasonable.Never had problems with the seats.He puts a ton of miles on the car every year.Now for a race only motor Id go aftermarket.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: Big Bad Bee]
#1098962
10/22/11 09:23 AM
10/22/11 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Well, Welcome back race fans, it's time to teach Lindy something again.
I have a set of closed chambered heads. I believe 516's. Larger valves have been installed and the bowls look to have been more than cleaned up and polished. I was thinking about taking them to a shop to have them measure the volume. Prostock1320 and I were discussing them and possibly having the volume checked. What's your take on closed chamber heads? Junk or good?
Lindy
Refresh us on the engine you want to put these on ?
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: coronetville]
#1098964
10/23/11 03:14 AM
10/23/11 03:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee
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Guys, thanks for your posts. Sorry I didn't get back to moparts till now. John, I have a 1974 440 block with forged crank which is at the machine shop now getting cleaned, mag'd and checked. One cylinder had water in it and will need to be sleeved. Bought the engine with low miles. Has flat top pistons. They reach about 7/32" from the top of the cylinder at TDC. The rods are LY's. Don't know the compression yet. I have two sets of heads. The 516 closed chamber heads and a pair of I believe 846(???) open chambered heads that came with the motor. The 516's ports look like this.  We measured the valves last week and they are 2.14 and 1.81 or close to it. They have almost zero run time but don't know how they flow. Here's a look at the set of roller rockers that came with the 516 heads.  They have no markings on them but everything is in beautiful shape. I have a set of early TTI ceramic coated headers stamped TCPPA440 with zero miles on em. We think they are 2". I called TTI and they said they would fit B or RB engines but dang if I didn't ask the diameter. I have an edelbrock performer intake also. I know better than to throw a bunch of speed parts together for no rhyme or reason, but I am trying to get something in the car to show it with this spring. I have plans for a 451 stroker later. I also need suggestions on a cam and carb for this engine. This is a street car with 3.91 sure grip and 727 trans. Would like lots of low end torque and decent idle but want some lope. I'll know early next week if the block is worth screwing with. If it has to be punched out, we are going a different direction. Lindy
I’m listening.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: Big Bad Bee]
#1098966
10/23/11 04:31 PM
10/23/11 04:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet
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Posts: 4,254
Canada
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Quote:
Guys, thanks for your posts. Sorry I didn't get back to moparts till now. John, I have a 1974 440 block with forged crank which is at the machine shop now getting cleaned, mag'd and checked. One cylinder had water in it and will need to be sleeved. Bought the engine with low miles. Has flat top pistons. They reach about 7/32" from the top of the cylinder at TDC. The rods are LY's. Don't know the compression yet. I have two sets of heads. The 516 closed chamber heads and a pair of I believe 846(???) open chambered heads that came with the motor.
Are u sure the pistons are 7/32" in the hole? That's over .200", if it's a 74 motor with stock pistons they maybe 7/64" in the hole which would make more sense. As these engines were about 7.8:1 compression, the closed chambered heads would bring it into the realm of half decent compression, probably in the high 8's? Still plenty safe for pump gas. But since you are having it sleeved are u putting in new pistons or reusing the old ones? It sounds like this is just a throw together engine until the stroker is done so I say use them if they check out okay and the port work isn't a total hack job.
The 516's ports look like this.
We measured the valves last week and they are 2.14 and 1.81 or close to it. They have almost zero run time but don't know how they flow.
Here's a look at the set of roller rockers that came with the 516 heads.
They have no markings on them but everything is in beautiful shape.
I have a set of early TTI ceramic coated headers stamped TCPPA440 with zero miles on em. We think they are 2". I called TTI and they said they would fit B or RB engines but dang if I didn't ask the diameter. I have an edelbrock performer intake also.
I know better than to throw a bunch of speed parts together for no rhyme or reason, but I am trying to get something in the car to show it with this spring. I have plans for a 451 stroker later. I also need suggestions on a cam and carb for this engine. This is a street car with 3.91 sure grip and 727 trans. Would like lots of low end torque and decent idle but want some lope.
I'll know early next week if the block is worth screwing with. If it has to be punched out, we are going a different direction.
Lindy
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1098967
10/23/11 11:03 PM
10/23/11 11:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee
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I Live Here
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Spokane Valley, WA
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Quote:
Are u sure the pistons are 7/32" in the hole? That's over .200", if it's a 74 motor with stock pistons they maybe 7/64" in the hole which would make more sense. As these engines were about 7.8:1 compression, the closed chambered heads would bring it into the realm of half decent compression, probably in the high 8's? Still plenty safe for pump gas. But since you are having it sleeved are u putting in new pistons or reusing the old ones? It sounds like this is just a throw together engine until the stroker is done so I say use them if they check out okay and the port work isn't a total hack job.
I really don't know how good the port work is. They look evenly matched and very clean. I am not sure on the pistons. You may be right. Didn't measure. The engine shop guy said that he guessed they were 8.1 compression from the carbon build up around the tops of the cylinder walls. I was planning to reuse the pistons. If I have to go the new piston route, that block gets sold and the stroker gets built. LOL the guy that built that motor had half the rings upside down and backwards...
A throw together engine, that it is. Hope to run it for a year, build the stroker and sell it off.
I’m listening.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: Big Block Dart]
#1098969
10/24/11 04:24 PM
10/24/11 04:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
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Open chamber heads are that way so ChryslerCorp engineers could lower the compression ratio and by doing that limit NOx formation. I don't think there's an iota of flow difference between a 915 and 906.
I'd say as long as you're not planning any high performance work with the engine, go ahead and use the heads. They won't flow like ported 915s but they probably are at least as good as a newer set of unported heads. And, as you don't intend to use this engine a lot, I'd say disregard any advice you may have gotten about installing hardened seats. I've put 70K miles on my '64Dog with solely unleaded fuel and the valve clearance hasn't closed up a bit. That would have happened if there was valve recession with my solid lifter cam.
I recently saw some flow bench numbers on this site which included flow for 516s and they weren't that bad, probably around 20 cfm less than a later head. While that is 45 hp or so it isn't a deal-breaker as far as I'm concerned. The heads you have should be good for 400+ hp.
Using a Performer intake will get the torque in low, although I'm surprised someone hasn't told you how it's not a real high performance intake.
Your other heads are 346s, which came on a 1970 engine. Nothing special about them.
You will have really low compression until you get different pistons. Use the steel shim head gaskets to not give more away.
As far as cam goes I'd suggest a tight LSA with moderate intake lobe.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 10/24/11 04:30 PM.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: dogdays]
#1098970
10/24/11 05:09 PM
10/24/11 05:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
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Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
I recently saw some flow bench numbers on this site which included flow for 516s and they weren't that bad, probably around 20 cfm less than a later head. While that is 45 hp or so it isn't a deal-breaker as far as I'm concerned. The heads you have should be good for 400+ hp.
 to not count the -516 out. It's easy to discard that head for something 'better' when it's someone else's money.
Consider teh '66 440 in a C-body - 350-365 hp depending on LP vs TNT -- with 516 heads.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: dogdays]
#1098971
10/24/11 06:57 PM
10/24/11 06:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Open chamber heads are that way so ChryslerCorp engineers could lower the compression ratio and by doing that limit NOx formation. I don't think there's an iota of flow difference between a 915 and 906.
I'd say as long as you're not planning any high performance work with the engine, go ahead and use the heads. They won't flow like ported 915s but they probably are at least as good as a newer set of unported heads. And, as you don't intend to use this engine a lot, I'd say disregard any advice you may have gotten about installing hardened seats. I've put 70K miles on my '64Dog with solely unleaded fuel and the valve clearance hasn't closed up a bit. That would have happened if there was valve recession with my solid lifter cam.
I recently saw some flow bench numbers on this site which included flow for 516s and they weren't that bad, probably around 20 cfm less than a later head. While that is 45 hp or so it isn't a deal-breaker as far as I'm concerned. The heads you have should be good for 400+ hp.
Using a Performer intake will get the torque in low, although I'm surprised someone hasn't told you how it's not a real high performance intake.
Your other heads are 346s, which came on a 1970 engine. Nothing special about them.
You will have really low compression until you get different pistons. Use the steel shim head gaskets to not give more away.
As far as cam goes I'd suggest a tight LSA with moderate intake lobe.
R.
What he said .
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: JohnRR]
#1098972
10/24/11 07:21 PM
10/24/11 07:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
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Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
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My 69 RR, with a .060 over 383, pistons .065 in the hole, ran 13.08 at 105 mph................ it had bowl ported 516's with the 1.74 exhaust valve added. NOT bad since it had a terrible 1.99 60' time. More hook/bite (better burnout) and with that mph 12's are not a problem. The shortblock had unknown mileage since it came in the car with no known history. Pistons rocked in the bores at TDC. The car weighed 3610 lbs with me in it. Yep, 516's are a boat anchor/doorstop, BUT for an econo mild to warm application (especially a 383) they have their purpose. 
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#1098973
10/24/11 09:09 PM
10/24/11 09:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee
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Great information you guys. I love this part of moparts. I learn a ton every time I hop on the Race forum!!! The 516's are in better shape than the 346's and will just need a quick cleaning and reassembly unless they are warped. Not too sure how stout the springs are yet. The only thing bugging me is the pistons. I don't want to dump money into this thing if I could be building my stroker but that will push the finish of the car until august. If I can squeeze 425 hp out of this motor, I would be happy. With the low gears, I will be able to lots of tire damage with that.  Will I kill performance with the 2" headers?
I’m listening.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: Big Bad Bee]
#1098974
10/25/11 06:09 AM
10/25/11 06:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
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Someone did some nice bowl work on those heads.  Since your heads are ported........it comes down to the higher lift flow loss versus the gain in compression through all rpm's.............. no one has yet been able to fortify which would be better, but I'll take the gains through the whole rpm range. Use 'em and see.
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#1098975
10/25/11 12:11 PM
10/25/11 12:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
RemCharger
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Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
My 69 RR, with a .060 over 383, pistons .065 in the hole, ran 13.08 at 105 mph................
it had bowl ported 516's with the 1.74 exhaust valve added.
NOT bad since it had a terrible 1.99 60' time. More hook/bite (better burnout) and with that mph 12's are not a problem.
The shortblock had unknown mileage since it came in the car with no known history. Pistons rocked in the bores at TDC.
The car weighed 3610 lbs with me in it.
Yep, 516's are a boat anchor/doorstop, BUT for an econo mild to warm application (especially a 383) they have their purpose.
Same, same. My street 383 is built the same, in a 4000lb race wt Charger and ran a 13.1 at 105. I'm figuring its making 425.
Mine are shaved .060 with pistons .080 down,, can't run it on regular.
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Re: Closed Chambered Heads
[Re: RemCharger]
#1098976
10/25/11 12:16 PM
10/25/11 12:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
My 69 RR, with a .060 over 383, pistons .065 in the hole, ran 13.08 at 105 mph................
it had bowl ported 516's with the 1.74 exhaust valve added.
NOT bad since it had a terrible 1.99 60' time. More hook/bite (better burnout) and with that mph 12's are not a problem.
The shortblock had unknown mileage since it came in the car with no known history. Pistons rocked in the bores at TDC.
The car weighed 3610 lbs with me in it.
Yep, 516's are a boat anchor/doorstop, BUT for an econo mild to warm application (especially a 383) they have their purpose.
Same, same. My street 383 is built the same, in a 4000lb race wt Charger and ran a 13.1 at 105. I'm figuring its making 425.
Mine are shaved .060 with pistons .080 down,, can't run it on regular.
Can't run it on regular ??? It's not like it has sky high compression.
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