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Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1095215
10/21/11 08:33 PM
10/21/11 08:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 31
Norwood NC
HP Engines Offline
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HP Engines  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 31
Norwood NC
Thanks Jim, I had had a great time at comp with all the Laroy team.
Like Darren said a vacuum pump was smart,but so was turning 8500 rpm.
I only turned 7300 rpm, (playing safe) so I can find a good home for the little 406 in months to come. Hats off to everyone involved in
the Amsoil Engine Challenge!

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: HP Engines] #1095216
10/21/11 09:14 PM
10/21/11 09:14 PM

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Hollis leaves out the fact we were gaining 6HP per 100 RPM at 7300 so...we should have turned it more but..we had a choice..keep jetting and turning more or whip out our secret weapon ( that went untested until our last dyno pull) the single 4 tunnel ram---Rules limited us to one 4150 carb any production manifold--we had the engine built and ready to go when we saw a tunnel ram at the Nats and went ..HUUMMM....maybe the extra volume would be of help? We had 6 minutes of dyno time left out of 45 allowed for all runs and tuning and decided to throw a Hail Marry with our Tunnel Ram--looking back we should have just jetted and turned it harder but oh well...we had them scared for a minute! You should have seen the faces when we pulled that intake out of the box! It was a fun moment--Hoping for maybe 10 more HP we were surprised when it actually fell off on HP--It went so lean on the end cylinders it turned the headers cherry red as seen in the Mopar Muscle Mags videos--watch close and you will see them glow at the end of the pull. Hats off to 8500 RPM!!!--we planned to turn ours as hard as it would take to win but in the end decided we would rather have a unit to sell and take home in one piece --we had a ball--made some great new friends and really enjoyed the entire experience! And..We have a HOSS of a 406 for sale that is in EXCELLENT condition as shown after tear down--our piston skirts and bearings looked out of the box perfect! Ours was such a simple build ....NO tricks...just really perfect machine work by HP Engines, a great cam design by Hollis and our pals at Bullet Cams and a fantastic set of Edelbrocks hand ported by Hollis who missed more than one of his kids ball games while getting them JUST RIGHT! When all of the details come out it will be great reading---it was HP per CI with a $5500 cap on hard parts. You could read between the lines and spend a zillion dollars on coatings, vacuum pumps, etc etc but we decided to go with the spirit of the rules and do one like we would for a guy walking in the door. HATS OFF to Tedder for having the guts( and $$) to do what we planned on doing..Great effort. LeRoy and his gang were real MOPAR guys to the bone, we were really impressed with their spirit and sportsmanship! I have to say...everyone we met there was Top Notch in every way and it was an honor to be in that company!

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: JohnRR] #1095217
10/22/11 01:42 AM
10/22/11 01:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
LaRoy Engines  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
Quote:

Quote:

340 out of 906s with no welding and no epoxy. Those are some strong numbers, about 40 better than anything I've heard of before. I would be intrested to see them tested side by side with a known factor.




I was thinking the same thing .




Aaah, so to answer. Side by side testing.

--best--best---recent--recent--past----box----box-----box
--stock-stock--ported--ported--ported--stock--stock---stock
--452---906----452-----906-----906----RPM---Victor---EZ

--61-----63-----92-------91------83-----73-----68------66----.100"
-130----137----170-----165-----158----148----141-----127----.200"
-188----187----224-----219-----206----209----204-----181----.300"
-213----216----265-----272-----250----254----246-----232----.400"
-227----224----287-----299-----289----276----277-----272----.500"
-230----232----297-----325-----326----287----305-----299----.600"
--------236----302-----335-----342----291----324-----315----.700"
------------------------339-----346------------334------------.800"


All flows from the same bench.

On 03/27/08 @ 11:13 AM, a set of the 906 heads on a 9.5:1 compression, all motor 451ci, made 554.2 Rear Wheel HP & 494.4 Rear Wheel TQ at Westech Performance Group in Mira Loma, CA

And on 7/23/11 The same 906 heads we ran on the 11.9:1 compression 500ci contest engine, made 693.5HP/548.3TQ, on a less than perfectly tuned, 9.7:1 compression 451ci engine.

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: HP Engines] #1095218
10/22/11 01:48 AM
10/22/11 01:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
L
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
LaRoy Engines  Offline
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L

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
Hollis, a couple of my crew picked your engine as the most impressive engine there.

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1095219
10/22/11 02:39 AM
10/22/11 02:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
Those are really nice numbers out of a 906 head. I can't imagine how many hours of grinding it takes to make those old iron heads flow like that.

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: dthemi] #1095220
10/22/11 03:38 AM
10/22/11 03:38 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
master
451Mopar  Offline
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
Quote:

The contest was tons of fun, and it was good to meet everyone. Our motor had made 703 at home then lost 60 hp over 2 pulls. We had tried to wean it off oil a few times looking for power that led to 3 seperate total failures above 8,000 rpm. We broke a rocker shaft at comp after making all our pulls playing with the motor, but power kept going away. What we found was that the rocker hold down holes in the heads were failing. When we pulled it down all the bolts were finger tight, and or stripped. We were so time stressed from the 3 previous failures it just went unnoticed. Our motor left the shop for Ohio still hot from the dyno, and we never took the valve covers off till it broke at comp after the competition pulls. Our final power at home was 635 before it left, so our dyno is reading conservative. Also I didn’t realize (through stupidity) that vacuum pumps were legal. Our nearest competitor used one (smart), and we did not (stupid). We’ll put one on our motor this time. I would think ,given the ring package and rpm a pump might be worth another 15-20hp

We are redoing it with all new parts, and documenting every step for Mopar Muscle.




I used these "Time-Sert" Stainless steel 0.750" long inserts ($3/each) in my heads after the Heli-coil failed.

http://www.mechanicstoolsandbits.com/pro...bc8090e67ba31cc

"Kit" to install them (drill, tap, countersink, install tool with 5 0.5" long inserts $65.00

http://www.mechanicstoolsandbits.com/product_info.php/time-sert-inch-kit-part-0381-p-41

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1095221
10/22/11 09:28 AM
10/22/11 09:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,905
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
I Win

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,905
U.S.S.A.
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

340 out of 906s with no welding and no epoxy. Those are some strong numbers, about 40 better than anything I've heard of before. I would be intrested to see them tested side by side with a known factor.




I was thinking the same thing .




Aaah, so to answer. Side by side testing.

--best--best---recent--recent--past----box----box-----box
--stock-stock--ported--ported--ported--stock--stock---stock
--452---906----452-----906-----906----RPM---Victor---EZ

--61-----63-----92-------91------83-----73-----68------66----.100"
-130----137----170-----165-----158----148----141-----127----.200"
-188----187----224-----219-----206----209----204-----181----.300"
-213----216----265-----272-----250----254----246-----232----.400"
-227----224----287-----299-----289----276----277-----272----.500"
-230----232----297-----325-----326----287----305-----299----.600"
--------236----302-----335-----342----291----324-----315----.700"
------------------------339-----346------------334------------.800"


All flows from the same bench.

On 03/27/08 @ 11:13 AM, a set of the 906 heads on a 9.5:1 compression, all motor 451ci, made 554.2 Rear Wheel HP & 494.4 Rear Wheel TQ at Westech Performance Group in Mira Loma, CA

And on 7/23/11 The same 906 heads we ran on the 11.9:1 compression 500ci contest engine, made 693.5HP/548.3TQ, on a less than perfectly tuned, 9.7:1 compression 451ci engine.




Did you have an .800 lift cam in that motor ?

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: JohnRR] #1095222
10/22/11 11:57 AM
10/22/11 11:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
L
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
LaRoy Engines  Offline
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L

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
.794"/.736" lift at the recommended lash.

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1095223
10/22/11 12:29 PM
10/22/11 12:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
RAMM Offline
super stock
RAMM  Offline
super stock

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
My favourite engine was the T&B'z Engines 426 ci 675hp entry!!! That one has the nicest sound of them all I thought. J.Rob


2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: RAMM] #1095224
10/22/11 12:58 PM
10/22/11 12:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
M
moderncylinder Offline
top fuel
moderncylinder  Offline
top fuel
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
what kind of fuel was used? there were no rpm limits?

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: moderncylinder] #1095225
10/22/11 02:54 PM
10/22/11 02:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
LaRoy Engines  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
Rocket Brand 93 octane. Minimum three qualifing pulls from 3,000-7,000 rpm, then minimum of three scored pulls from 3,000-7,000 rpm with no upper RPM limit. B or RB block. No cubic inch limit. Any cylinder head that uses stock offset rockers, no pushrod relocation. Single 4150 style carburetor. $5,500 retail limit on a specific list of hard parts. 10 HP penalty for every $100 over $5,500. Best HP/CI wins.

It looked like the only chance we might get to match the ported factory iron head directly against aluminum heads so we picked the 906 heads rather than the Edelbrock Performer RPM heads we used two years before. (349cfm on a 451ci and made 723 HP (93 octane, belt driven water pump and 600 rpm/sec, and 787 HP, electric water pump, 300 rpm/sec and 91 octane)

This year T&B'Z (Tom & Brenda Foley) and Darren Tedder (Prism) are seperated by .007 HP/CI before the money has been totaled.

Last edited by heyoldguy; 10/22/11 03:21 PM.
Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1095226
10/22/11 03:01 PM
10/22/11 03:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
M
moderncylinder Offline
top fuel
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
so avg power from 3-7k? then add up and avg the 3 runs? then that hp/cid?

is t and b in first? or 2nd? or? what are the rankings?

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: moderncylinder] #1095227
10/22/11 03:24 PM
10/22/11 03:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
Sorry, I confused the issue. Peak horsepower on the best scored run, no matter what RPM, is used to compute the score.

Forgot to answer the second part, Tom and Brenda appear to be in second as of this moment.

Darren-----------1.593 hp/ci
T&B'Z------------1.586
Hollis Page-------1.500
Buck Hinkle-------1.470 DNF/broke
LaRoy------------1.460
Bill's--------------1.380
Mid America------1.380

Last edited by heyoldguy; 10/22/11 04:42 PM.
Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1095228
10/22/11 05:52 PM
10/22/11 05:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 31
Norwood NC
HP Engines Offline
member
HP Engines  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 31
Norwood NC
Jim Im building a 500 cid mega block.
Goin to put a 871 blower set up for street.
Didn't you guys do one for your buddy Greg.
Curious what blower yal used, BDS / Dyers?

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: HP Engines] #1095229
10/22/11 06:28 PM
10/22/11 06:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
L
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
LaRoy Engines  Offline
mopar
L

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
No blower yet. Greg wanted a blower because of the looks and so he could have 600 HP. He settled for 496ci, 642 HP @ 5,800rpm and 642 TQ @ 4,600rpm, with a 950 cfm single 4bbl on 91 octane. Gunna add the blower later.

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: dthemi] #1095230
10/23/11 09:29 AM
10/23/11 09:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
Swears too much
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Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

The contest was tons of fun, and it was good to meet everyone. Our motor had made 703 at home then lost 60 hp over 2 pulls. We had tried to wean it off oil a few times looking for power that led to 3 seperate total failures above 8,000 rpm. We broke a rocker shaft at comp after making all our pulls playing with the motor, but power kept going away. What we found was that the rocker hold down holes in the heads were failing. When we pulled it down all the bolts were finger tight, and or stripped. We were so time stressed from the 3 previous failures it just went unnoticed. Our motor left the shop for Ohio still hot from the dyno, and we never took the valve covers off till it broke at comp after the competition pulls. Our final power at home was 635 before it left, so our dyno is reading conservative. Also I didn’t realize (through stupidity) that vacuum pumps were legal. Our nearest competitor used one (smart), and we did not (stupid). We’ll put one on our motor this time. I would think ,given the ring package and rpm a pump might be worth another 15-20hp

We are redoing it with all new parts, and documenting every step for Mopar Muscle.




8500RPM on a (stock stroke?) 406...??? Oh i'm horny.

I wanna hear more about this build.

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: Pale_Roader] #1095231
10/23/11 04:25 PM
10/23/11 04:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 237
Redding,CA USA
440charger500 Offline
enthusiast
440charger500  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 237
Redding,CA USA
This sounds like crazyness. Cant wait to read more.

Re: Darren Tedder's 400 lo deck build- Mopar Muscle Contest [Re: 440charger500] #1095232
10/23/11 11:01 PM
10/23/11 11:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
L
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
LaRoy Engines  Offline
mopar
L

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
Crazy? Oh I should say so! There was a 404ci/361 with a 3.38 stroke crank, offset ground to 3.74 stroke for a 2.00" rod journal size, 5.4 Ford Mod rods, 4.00" Chevy dome pistons and 915 iron heads. With .100" rod side clearance they used piston pin boss spacers to center the rod. Ran great.......for awhile.

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