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#1077534 - 10/09/11 02:41 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
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Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
and one last thought...did we make sure the module box is well grounded?
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Steve

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#1077535 - 10/09/11 02:44 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I cannot see any of the wires to the ECU without taking out the glovebox again.

The wires on the ballast resistor are as follows:

Passenger side : Dark Green (on left side when looking at firewall)
Driver's side Brown and Black together .


So do you want me to run a continuity test between the light blue wire with yellow tracer ( assuming it is there) to both of the wires to the ballast resistor to see which one is going to the ECU?

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#1077536 - 10/09/11 02:45 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

and one last thought...did we make sure the module box is well grounded?




I put my probe to the body of the ECU ( through the paint) and then to the body of the car and had continuity, I would think that would be good ground, no?

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#1077537 - 10/09/11 02:49 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
page down this pdf and see if your car is wired like the diagram shown for converting from points to electronic

www.dippy.org/upgrade/ignition.pdf

It shows the dark green wire not being used if the module is a five wire version...I need to go look for the four wire module...I have forgotten which one you have
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Steve

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#1077538 - 10/09/11 02:54 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I have the 4 pin version.

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#1077539 - 10/09/11 03:06 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
okay...sorry for the confusion...sounds like the module box should be grounded well enuf.

Can you run a jumper from the battery plus to the coil + and at the same time, jump across the ballast resistor from one end to the other with a jumper? Then try starting it.

the second diagram on the page shows wring for a four terminal module http://www.allpar.com/fix/electronic-ignition.html
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Steve

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#1077540 - 10/09/11 03:09 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
Now I know why I cut all the rotten wiring out from under the hood on my car and installed an HEI module powered thru a relay!
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Steve

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#1077541 - 10/09/11 03:41 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
If it does not, you might look at the module and see if the wire coming from number one on the diagrams is the one connected to the ballast. I know it ran before, but, I am curious...seems the power has to go to 1 on the module.
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Steve

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#1077542 - 10/09/11 03:43 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

Can you run a jumper from the battery plus to the coil + and at the same time, jump across the ballast resistor from one end to the other with a jumper? Then try starting it.






Ok jumped across ballast resistor ( elminating it, assuming that is what you were asking me to do), and at the same time used a jumper wire from the battery plus to the positive side of the coil.

Result was start issue was the same, started in RUN and not in START,
but when I went to turn the car off and took the key out the car kept running.

I took the jumper of the positive battery terminal and the car stopped.
Does this mean anything?

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#1077543 - 10/09/11 03:57 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
no, that would be expected because we have bypassed the ignition switch by going straight to coil from the battery....no way to turn it off other than by disconnecting the wire from the battery.

Okay, it makes no sense as we should have eliminated most of the voltage drop.

Yet, as soon as you back off the key, it fires off.

Okay, lets go back to my suggestion of a week, or so, ago. If you have another battery that is charged up, pull it out and connect a wire from its + to the coil plus and leave the jumper across the ballast for this test as well.

Connect a wire from the battery - post to a ground on the car under the hood...It should work to the car battery ground terminal, or to sheetmetal ground off the car battery ground.

If we can ever get the damn thing to start when cranking, then we will have made some progress even if we don't know why
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Steve

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#1077544 - 10/09/11 04:06 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
this is a dumb question, but, let me ask it even tho I think it was checked early on.

The brown wire on one end of the ballast...what voltage does it read when the key is in the cranking position? It does read 8-9v when cranking, right?
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Steve

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#1077545 - 10/09/11 04:14 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Quote:

this is a dumb question, but, let me ask it even tho I think it was checked early on.

The brown wire on one end of the ballast...what voltage does it read when the key is in the cranking position? It does read 8-9v when cranking, right?




Do I measure this with everything hooked back up the way it should or does it matter?

I'm also asking because it's a PITA to measure voltage when alone, I can do the "other battery" test first.

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#1077546 - 10/09/11 04:19 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
I fully understand....

try the other battery first...

in fact, try hooking the battery plus to the end of the ballast where the brown wire is connected...btw, does the black wire that connects there go to the coil positive?

And ground the battery negative to something convenient under the hood...engine, sheet metal, regular battery clamp, etc.

If practical, disconnect the brown cable from the ballast and replace it with the jumper from the new battery...just be sure it still gets power to the coil via the black wire if that is where it goes...in other words put the power from the new battery thru the ballast and to the coil


Edited by Strawdawg (10/09/11 04:24 PM)
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Steve

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#1077547 - 10/09/11 04:29 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
Ok wait. Too much info, I am getting confused.

I tried hooking up a battery but I don't get enough juice from the battery to start the car ( only get a couple of clicks ) .

I don't have heavy enough cable to do that kind of jump I guess.

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#1077548 - 10/09/11 04:32 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
For the other voltage test of the brown wire, do I put everything back to normal then test voltage?

And I will have to test it at the terminal end as I cannot get a probe into the brown wire alone by myself.

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#1077549 - 10/09/11 04:39 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
no...not clear enuf instructions

I don't want you to disconnect the car battery.

I want you to use the second battery to power the coil and ignition module....In other words, I am trying eliminate any voltage drop by simply bypassing the starter circuit with the second battery.

here is the way the circuit works if I am reading the diagram correctly. When you turn the key to Start, power should be sent thru the brown wire to the end of the ballast resistor. From that point, it should go straight to the coil. Now the power should also go thru the ballast resistor and out the other end to the ignition box.

I wanted to use the second battery to connect to the end of the ballast where the brown wire connects by connecting a wire from the second battery plus to the end of the ballast where the brown wire connects. And provide a ground from the second battery to the engine, original battery, sheet metal, or something that is a good ground to complete the power circuit to the ballast/coil/ignition box.

Then I made it more confusing by saying it would be nice to remove the brown wire completely from the ballast to completely remove the factory circuit from the ignition so it could not be affected by anything coming from the key....this should not really be required.

I also mentioned you could leave the ballast bypassed for this test to eliminate it as a potential problem.

When connected up, then use the key and the car battery to crank from...don't remove it


In the end, we would have the starter powered by the original battery and the ignition powered by the second battery...does that make sense:)
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Steve

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#1077550 - 10/09/11 04:44 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg]
MONC Offline
master

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3038
Loc: The Historic Hudson Valley
I think I understand the concept, but hooking it up is another thing.

My mind is fried right now, been at this all day (again).

I need to stop for the day.
I'll reread this in the morning and hopefully it will be a little more clear.

Thanks for your help Steve.

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#1077551 - 10/09/11 04:48 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
No worries...its only help if it helps...
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Steve

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#1077552 - 10/09/11 09:04 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC]
451Mopar Offline
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Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5053
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Quote:

Quote:

and one last thought...did we make sure the module box is well grounded?




I put my probe to the body of the ECU ( through the paint) and then to the body of the car and had continuity, I would think that would be good ground, no?




You need a good ground from the ECU to the engine block and battery, not just the body, and a continuity test does not tell you how much resistance is in the path.

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#1077553 - 10/09/11 09:49 PM Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar]
Strawdawg Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 183
Loc: Eden, Texas
That is an excellent point...

Normally, I check voltage drop across the circuit rather than check voltages at various points.

In this case, a probe on the case and a probe on the engine with the meter on volts...then crank the engine and whatever voltage shows up on the meter is an indication of how good/bad the ground would be. Having the ignition module box behind the glove box makes it hard to check things without about three people available-or some creative rigging

By yourself, it is hard.

I still think this is a simple problem but it is being difficult to corner.
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Steve

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