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Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: AndyF] #1069316
09/06/11 08:06 PM
09/06/11 08:06 PM
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State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
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Quote:

Checking the passages from the mains to the gallery is the most important step. I've learned this lesson the hard way on a couple of engines. If one of the passages is partially plugged then the engine will spin rod bearings every time you lean on it.


Agreed............when I started the big-block journey years ago, Pettis did the oiling mods to my block and I`ve ran 6-quarts of oil at 7000+ rpm`s for 11+ years w/out issues.


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: 68LAR] #1069317
09/06/11 08:08 PM
09/06/11 08:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,678
W. Kentucky
justinp61 Offline
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Larry, I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but if you're supposed to use five quarts of oil to one bottle of STP, why use three bottles to nine quarts? I think in it's day STP was great stuff, but now there are better products out there. Yes, I ran STP for years, but only one bottle. I'd be curious to see what your oil viscosity is with you're mix. The oil may not have anything to do with your problem, but I've have never heard of anyone using that much STP.

My 408 has the oil passages drilled out, full grove mains, .0025 on the rods and .003 om the mains and a high volume pump. It runs about 60 psi hot at 2800 and around 40 at idle. I know the volume is there so the pressure doesn't bother me.

I hope you find and correct your problem and have no issues in the future .

Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: 68LAR] #1069318
09/06/11 08:50 PM
09/06/11 08:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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Performance Only Offline
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Quote:


I know you are trying to help. It's hard to show feelings with a key board. I appreciate all of the replies so far, really!
I did not check bore size because of the reason you mentioned. 65 psi was cold idle. At 2200 rpm it was at 75 rpm. I didn't take it up higher than 3500 and it remained at 75. When I raced it with the engine at temp. my oil pressure sets, or sat at, 75-80 psi at 6500 rpm.
With that, what mod would you recommend? I'm leaning toward the one that blocks the oil from #4 to the cam bearing and drill and tap in a restrictor into the main oil galleies for rocker lubrication. If any mods, to me, this one as described in the "Power Adder" section, would work best on a street/strip engine like mine.





i wouldn't block any oil to the top end. the pressures you listed above are fine. we run similar pressures on engines that regularly see 7000+ rpm at the track and get driven hard on the street. it's all about volume, not pressure. open up those main passages so the volume gets to the bearings. you'll be surprised how small some of them are as cast. having the 1/2" pickup is great, but by itself it doesn't help much. you need the other passages opened up for it to be effective. one other thing, replace the rod that spun the bearing, don't repair it. if the one next to it got hot, make sure it's checked out preperly or replace it too. hopefully the rest of the damage isn't too bad.


machine shop owner and engine builder
Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: 68LAR] #1069319
09/06/11 09:03 PM
09/06/11 09:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Also you want the volume... its also removing heat...
like was said already, pressure is the by-product of
flow vs restriction... you would have plenty of flow
with what you have BUT with the thick oil and the restrictions
you have lots of pressure

Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: Performance Only] #1069320
09/06/11 09:03 PM
09/06/11 09:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
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Quote:

i wouldn't block any oil to the top end. the pressures you listed above are fine. we run similar pressures on engines that regularly see 7000+ rpm at the track and get driven hard on the street. it's all about volume, not pressure. open up those main passages so the volume gets to the bearings. you'll be surprised how small some of them are as cast. having the 1/2" pickup is great, but by itself it doesn't help much. you need the other passages opened up for it to be effective. one other thing, replace the rod that spun the bearing, don't repair it. if the one next to it got hot, make sure it's checked out preperly or replace it too. hopefully the rest of the damage isn't too bad.




Will do! I did ordered 2 new rods and a new piston for #6, as it hit the head. I also had to order another crank, mine showed a couple of cracks. I get carried away with things from time to time. The STP thing is one of those times. Maybe it contributed to the failure, maybe not, remember this engine was built in 2004.....
Thanks to ALL for your input, believe me, it is appreciated. Thanks again.
Larry


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: Performance Only] #1069321
09/07/11 12:47 AM
09/07/11 12:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Sport440 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


I know you are trying to help. It's hard to show feelings with a key board. I appreciate all of the replies so far, really!
I did not check bore size because of the reason you mentioned. 65 psi was cold idle. At 2200 rpm it was at 75 rpm. I didn't take it up higher than 3500 and it remained at 75. When I raced it with the engine at temp. my oil pressure sets, or sat at, 75-80 psi at 6500 rpm.
With that, what mod would you recommend? I'm leaning toward the one that blocks the oil from #4 to the cam bearing and drill and tap in a restrictor into the main oil galleies for rocker lubrication. If any mods, to me, this one as described in the "Power Adder" section, would work best on a street/strip engine like mine.





i wouldn't block any oil to the top end. the pressures you listed above are fine. we run similar pressures on engines that regularly see 7000+ rpm at the track and get driven hard on the street. it's all about volume, not pressure. open up those main passages so the volume gets to the bearings. you'll be surprised how small some of them are as cast. having the 1/2" pickup is great, but by itself it doesn't help much. you need the other passages opened up for it to be effective. one other thing, replace the rod that spun the bearing, don't repair it. if the one next to it got hot, make sure it's checked out preperly or replace it too. hopefully the rest of the damage isn't too bad.




There are different reasons for restricting oil to the top end. The cam itself is a "Pulse oil restrictor" to the top end.

In a race engine, a additional restrictor will also help to prevent to much oil from pumping to the top end at high RPM draining a insufficient pan.

Some will groove the cam journal for a constant oil supply to the top end vs a Pulse cam supply. That would need a restrictor to the top end.

The Mod in the Power Adders section has a restriction too. As does All the above situations.

But, The Power Adders Mod addresses the #4 main Oil supply drain of the valvetrain that Robs the oil supply to #6 and #7 rod journals that get the First hit of a weak oil supply.

All the other mods wont! They will still pull/rob oil from the #6 and #7 rod bearings to feed the upper valvetrain.


At minimum while your block is apart drill the angled oil galley feeds from the mains to the oil galley to make sure they are clear "all the way through".

The "Power Adders Mod" is alittle extreme for your ride IMO. But, I would still consider a Jet restriction in the block or head for your ride. Lighten up on the STP too a little.

Your car is Mostly a street car. But with the 11.sec. trips down the 1/4 it still thinks its a race car. If and when any bearings run out of oil @ 6000 RPM, Does it care??

Last edited by Sport440; 09/07/11 01:20 AM.
Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: AndyF] #1069322
09/07/11 01:32 AM
09/07/11 01:32 AM
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Canton, Ohio
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Quote:

Rod bearing issues are very common with stock block engines. Most of the failures I've seen were caused because people didn't take the time to open up the passages from the main gallery to the mains. The factory did a poor job on those passages. What works for years in a street engine doesn't last very long in a drag motor.

#4 main usually causes the most problems because it also sends oil to the top end. So those rod bearings get smoked first if oil volume or pressure isn't up to par.





More simply put on the #4 main problem.

Last edited by Sport440; 09/07/11 01:37 AM.
Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: Sport440] #1069323
09/07/11 08:45 AM
09/07/11 08:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,003
Shelby Twp. Mi
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I didn't see it mentioned here so, I think the excessive volume of oil in the pan caused aeration in the oil. The oil level is probably too high and gets whipped by the recip assy., especially under acceleration. Addressing this and the other things mentioned; radius all block passages accessable and opening the feeds to the mains, should fix your bearing issues.

Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: Performance Only] #1069324
09/07/11 09:37 AM
09/07/11 09:37 AM
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Posts: 9,963
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Quote:

Quote:


I know you are trying to help. It's hard to show feelings with a key board. I appreciate all of the replies so far, really!
I did not check bore size because of the reason you mentioned. 65 psi was cold idle. At 2200 rpm it was at 75 rpm. I didn't take it up higher than 3500 and it remained at 75. When I raced it with the engine at temp. my oil pressure sets, or sat at, 75-80 psi at 6500 rpm.
With that, what mod would you recommend? I'm leaning toward the one that blocks the oil from #4 to the cam bearing and drill and tap in a restrictor into the main oil galleies for rocker lubrication. If any mods, to me, this one as described in the "Power Adder" section, would work best on a street/strip engine like mine.





i wouldn't block any oil to the top end. the pressures you listed above are fine. we run similar pressures on engines that regularly see 7000+ rpm at the track and get driven hard on the street. it's all about volume, not pressure. open up those main passages so the volume gets to the bearings. you'll be surprised how small some of them are as cast. having the 1/2" pickup is great, but by itself it doesn't help much. you need the other passages opened up for it to be effective. one other thing, replace the rod that spun the bearing, don't repair it. if the one next to it got hot, make sure it's checked out preperly or replace it too. hopefully the rest of the damage isn't too bad.



After rereading my post and the rest of them, PERFORMANCEONLY is spot on IMHO.

Also consider this. Too much viscosity can starve a bearing. I would never use an additive that increases viscosity because the oil engineers know what they are doing, and why. There is a constant loss of pressure as a liquid moves through a tube. Thicken the liquid, and the rate of pressure loss due to friction sky rockets. Sometimes a thinner oil is much better in certain circumstances than thinner oil. Given that a lighter oil will still support the load, you have more capacity (flows easier) and more cooling. But your motor should work just fine with 15w40 if the passages are ok and bearings etc are done right. The restriction I talked about also hurts you on the suction side. Then when the oil is trying to move through the motor there is more loss. Stack everything together and the answer to why the bearings failed is in there somewhere.
An extreme example of what I am talking about with pressure loss happened at the newspaper where I used to work. The ink we pump hundreds of feet to the press is thicker than 600w grease. The engineering study said to run huge (8 inch?) pipe to overcome the friction. Some genius said it cost too much, and reduced the size of the pipe in the plans. Guess what? The presses on the end of the line couldn't get enough ink when the first ones were running.
As far as pressure needed, I run 65 psi at idle cold. Never goes above 65 psi. .0025 rod/.0035 main clearances, 7200 to 7800 rpm at the stripe. No problems. I do run the motor hot, which keeps the viscosity down some.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: gregsdart] #1069325
09/08/11 12:51 AM
09/08/11 12:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11 Offline
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Cold oil can and will cause a bearing to spin. When I was operating the dyno at the shop I worked at, I wouldn't make pulls on the engine until the oil was 200 degrees at a minimum. I try not to beat on any of my vehicles until I see the oil pressure running at its normal "warm" range.

Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: 440Jim] #1069326
09/09/11 02:13 PM
09/09/11 02:13 PM
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Posts: 179
Up in the North and Far Away
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Quote:

Quote:

One bottle of STP treats 5 qts. of oil. My system, 7 Qt. pan, windage tray =1 more qt. and an
HP oil filter = 1 more qt. That's 9 qts, and I just add another bottle for GP's. You can't have too much zinc.


I am not saying STP is bad, but remember that the oil in the STP bottle that carries the additives may not be the best oil.




As a matter of fact, you CAN also have too much zinc in the motor oil. Too much zinc increases the formation of sludge and pitting of metal surfaces.

STP is also containing additive called Viscosity Modifier and they are polymers. By using an additional STP bottle, you are also pouring more plastics to the crankcase. Certain aftermarket oil additives are also containing chlorinated paraffin that one type of an active chemical ingredient. It is causing bearing weight loss. The lubricant industry is using a bench test ASTM D5119 to evaluate an oil's ability to control copper/lead/tin corrosion of bearings. Using aftermarket additives you most often improve the chemical corrosion of the bearings. Read the attached pdf file copied from a lubricants professional journal a few years ago

The US Federal Trade Commission has had a few cases against aftermarket motor oil additive sellers

STP Engine Treatment
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1995/12/stp.shtm

Valvoline Engine Treatment
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/10/valve.shtm

Slick 50 Engine Treatment
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1996/07/slick.shtm

Dura Lube Super Engine Treatment
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/05/duralub2.shtm

Motor Up Engine Treatment
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/04/motorup5.shtm

Prolong Super Lubricants
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/09/prolong.shtm

Make your own conclusions from the above, but as a lubricants professional and formulator of lubes I would prefer to use high quality lubes instead of making own mixtures with aftermarket additives. You can't necessarily improve an oil by pouring in more additives from an expensive little bottle. As a matter of fact, you even can make things worse. Overdosing STP may not have been the one and only reason for the spun rod bearings, but sure it has had it's own negative reactions to the motor oil

Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: AutoEngineer] #1069327
09/09/11 06:56 PM
09/09/11 06:56 PM
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Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
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Quote:

As a matter of fact, you CAN also have too much zinc in the motor oil. Too much zinc increases the formation of sludge and pitting of metal surfaces.





Not trying to start an argument here, but 2 things come to mind.
1. Why did the other bearings, rods and mains, look like new?
2. There ain't no sludge in my engine, or pitting, for that matter.

Thanks for your input though!


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: 68LAR] #1069328
09/10/11 03:26 PM
09/10/11 03:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
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Up in the North and Far Away
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Quote:


One bottle of STP treats 5 qts. of oil. My system, 7 Qt. pan, windage tray =1 more qt. and an
HP oil filter = 1 more qt. That's 9 qts, and I just add another bottle for GP's. You can't have too much zinc.





Quote:

Quote:

As a matter of fact, you CAN also have too much zinc in the motor oil. Too much zinc increases the formation of sludge and pitting of metal surfaces.





Not trying to start an argument here, but 2 things come to mind.
1. Why did the other bearings, rods and mains, look like new?
2. There ain't no sludge in my engine, or pitting, for that matter.

Thanks for your input though!




I am not going either to start arguing here clear issues, but someone stated here that you can't have too much zinc in motor oil. That is NOT the truth and it has been a very long time well known issue among people who are working with the R&D of lubricants.

Like said, your bearing failure may not have been a direct result of overdosing STP, but statements here won't renew the basics of science like chemistry and tribology. Too much zinc in the oil causes problems. Period

This is the end of this discussion from my side.

Re: #6/#5 spun rod bearing ? [Re: AutoEngineer] #1069329
09/11/11 04:09 PM
09/11/11 04:09 PM
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South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
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This is the end of this discussion from my side.




Me too!


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
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