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Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH!!! #1057570
08/19/11 09:19 PM
08/19/11 09:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee Offline OP
I Live Here
Big Bad Bee  Offline OP
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Okay guys, I bought the engine I posted about a couple weeks ago. 440, removed from a crashed mud bogger, edelbrock performer intake, deep sump pan. The guy dropped the price to $380 with the trans. Sold.


Fast forward. I got the engine home, pulled the trans, pulled the plugs and valve covers.





Everything looks clean with a light surface rust on a couple of the rocker towers at the front of the left head. Spark plugs had rust around them but I think the thing was stored a year and still has mud on it from its bogging days. Those two plugs with the rusty threads near the electrode were on the front left. I thought maybe moisture could have crept in from the exhaust port if the valve were open? There is no sign of breakage. One push rood was loose enough that I bumped it and it popped from under the arm. I can't spin the crank. It goes 1/3rd turn and goes clunk. So I pulled the pan. No shavings or ground metal. Oil is nice and smooth. All the rods, pins, pistons, cylinder walls, bolts, crank look fine. As I tried to turn the crank again I heard what sounded like a clash up on the left front... like the piston clunking into a valve.



What's next? I guess I strip her down, check the cam lobes and lifters. Everything looks so nice and moves pretty freely until it stops. The oil pick up has no metal in the screen and looks brand new.


Last edited by Quikfish; 08/21/11 09:20 PM.
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057571
08/19/11 09:25 PM
08/19/11 09:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
4
408strokerdart Offline
master
408strokerdart  Offline
master
4

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
Pull the heads. That will tell you what you need to know.

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057572
08/19/11 10:24 PM
08/19/11 10:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Could be a bent valve OR a converter bolt backed out
and is hitting the block.... open it up
EDIT
I see you pulled the trans... cancel that idea of the
conv bolt

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 08/19/11 10:29 PM.
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1057573
08/19/11 10:37 PM
08/19/11 10:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
rebel Offline
master
rebel  Offline
master

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
have you taken the rocker gear off & checked all the valves are at the same height? this will tell you if you are experiancing a valve problem

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: rebel] #1057574
08/19/11 11:08 PM
08/19/11 11:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge
FastmOp Offline
master
FastmOp  Offline
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Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge


use a straight edge on the top of the valves.
Could have a carb nut that fell down the intake or something like that. Just keep digging.

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: rebel] #1057575
08/19/11 11:11 PM
08/19/11 11:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee Offline OP
I Live Here
Big Bad Bee  Offline OP
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Haven't pulled the rocker gear off. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow and pull the heads. That would be so cool if I could get this puppy running.

New question. How do you tell what stall a torque converter is? Is there a machine that tests this? it came with a nice looking converter but it is bare metal and looks like it's been worked by the welds between the case and the flywheel. It has a little stamp on it and this is the only defining mark other than what appears to be a timing mark.





I’m listening.
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057576
08/20/11 01:22 AM
08/20/11 01:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
rebel Offline
master
rebel  Offline
master

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647
aotearoa
thats a biggg converter. i bet the stall isn't that high. i wouldn't blab to too many people about it being a hot converter just yet, you going to have to test it in your combo to see how good it is.

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: rebel] #1057577
08/20/11 02:16 AM
08/20/11 02:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11 Offline
super stock
dodgeboy11  Offline
super stock

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
You either have a bent valve or a valve stuck open. The loose pushrod just about confirms it.

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057578
08/20/11 02:58 AM
08/20/11 02:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
Mike Swann Offline
super stock
Mike Swann  Offline
super stock

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093
Long Beach, CA
The rust on the 2 plugs in the foreground on the right is telling.


8.30's @3400 lbs
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Mike Swann] #1057579
08/20/11 03:04 AM
08/20/11 03:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,074
detroit, mi
POS Dakota Offline
super stock
POS Dakota  Offline
super stock

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,074
detroit, mi
Quote:

The rust on the 2 plugs in the foreground on the right is telling.




Exactly. Probably a frozen guide in the head.
Might not be any damage at all per se, just a stuck valve from it sitting with water in it.

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: POS Dakota] #1057580
08/20/11 07:46 AM
08/20/11 07:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,050
Niles , Ohio
T
therocks Offline
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks  Offline
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,050
Niles , Ohio
Looks like a lot of rust around No 8 corner.Looks like water was sitting there.Rocky


Chrysler Firepower
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057581
08/20/11 09:25 AM
08/20/11 09:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
I'm thinking you just have rust in a few of the cyl
that the rings are hitting... maybe a bent or hung
valve

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057582
08/20/11 09:36 AM
08/20/11 09:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1 Offline
master
Commando1  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
If I bought a $380 used and abused engine, I would have automatically stripped it down to the bare block from day 1.
Go for the whole enchelada and save yourself time & aggravation.

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Commando1] #1057583
08/20/11 10:40 AM
08/20/11 10:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
D
dennismopar73 Offline
top fuel
dennismopar73  Offline
top fuel
D

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
anything is just, well , guess,. man tear it down, ,
380 dollars motor tranny,, nothing to lose, here ,

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Commando1] #1057584
08/20/11 10:44 AM
08/20/11 10:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
slippery440 Offline
Crybaby440
slippery440  Offline
Crybaby440

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,142
Central New York
You did great for 380 dollars for everything. Now you just have to understand that you bought basicly a junk motor that has good parts and a trany that is a good core. Why in the world would you think that a motor that has any rust on the inside will start up and run ? I have bought motors from the scrap yard that was in the same shape or better and never even had a thought to just try to start them and mabe use them in a car. The converter is just a junk 11" stock piece.


If the MODS did their job I would not be hitting the notify MOD button. LOL
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: slippery440] #1057585
08/21/11 12:00 AM
08/21/11 12:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee Offline OP
I Live Here
Big Bad Bee  Offline OP
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Quote:

You did great for 380 dollars for everything. Now you just have to understand that you bought basicly a junk motor that has good parts and a trany that is a good core. Why in the world would you think that a motor that has any rust on the inside will start up and run ?




Because I am an optimist... The motor was said to be a running unit. It had the trans bolted to it and more than one guy here suggested that there was a converter bolt backed out and hitting. A little moisture from sitting a year around here, especially with the carb and exhaust manifolds off wouldn't be unusual. I just was excited at how fresh the thing looks but confused at why it didn't turn because the bottom end is completely clean with no sign of a running failure. I've disassembled motors before but this is my first possible rebuild, so go easy there, big guy...


I’m listening.
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057586
08/21/11 12:06 AM
08/21/11 12:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
I'm betting on rust in the cylinders first and then a stuck valve in a guide Please let us know what you find

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/21/11 02:32 AM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. [Re: Cab_Burge] #1057587
08/21/11 01:05 AM
08/21/11 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge
FastmOp Offline
master
FastmOp  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge
I do as little to it as I could. Give it a hand hone, stick it back together and play. If they didn't pitch a rod out of it demo'n it then it's a good one

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1057588
08/21/11 09:19 PM
08/21/11 09:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee Offline OP
I Live Here
Big Bad Bee  Offline OP
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
Quote:

I'm betting on rust in the cylinders first and then a stuck valve in a guide Please let us know what you find




Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!

Well, here's what I found.

7 of the bores look like this.


Give or take carbon, but they all look nice. That is except for #8 which looks like this.

#6 is okay but you can see where some moisture was in the head affecting that plug, and #8's valves were rusted up nicely...


All the lifters looked pretty with the exception of a couple that looked like they may not be rotating in the bore real good. smooth but black stains. the two on the back end were gummy as you can see and the cam looked gummy too. The lifters came out with a little coaxing gooey orange in the top from rust but still functioned. The cam looked pretty except for the back end which looked like this.


Sad that that bore got wet. It's nasty. Feels like 40 grit. So what's worth keeping, what do I throw out and can the block be cleaned up and honed or does that rust mean it's going to need a larger bore? is the cam dead or can the lobes be cleaned up? I haven't got to the front of the block yet so I don't know what grind it is. Too bad. Then engine looks like it had very few hours on it.

Sorry for my naivete. Just trying to learn. And also trying to get an engine in the car on a low budget. with plans for a 451 in the works.


I’m listening.
Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1057589
08/21/11 09:32 PM
08/21/11 09:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Its gonna need a bore job.... now its a matter of HOW
MUCH.... I'd forget the cam also(but thats me... I dont
play with hyd cams in so called race engines)....
start pouring oil and rust breaker in the bores so
you can get it apart

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