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info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. #1024368
07/02/11 12:20 PM
07/02/11 12:20 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
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Just a For What its Worth post.
I weighed the pistons, pins, rods, etc to see how they matched up with the Balance sheet from 440 Source.
Note: I used the same numbers for oil weight and balance factor. The locks and rings measured the same when I checked them. There were some variation of piston and rod weights, but they were fairly small, less than 2 grams max.

This is the 440 Source Balance Sheet Info:

440 Source Bob Weight Card
Piston and Pin 755.8
Rod Bearing 47.8
Rings 57.7
Rotating End 528.8
Locks 4.4
Oil (each) 2
Rod Pin End 241.5

Reciprocaring Total 2118.8 Rotating Total 1157.2
balance Factor % 50
Reciprocaring Total ½ 1059.4 Bobweight Total 2216.6


My Measured Numbers:

Piston, Pin, Rod End 998.69 Rod Bearing 47.8
Rings 57.7
Rotating End 528.46
Locks 4.4
Oil (each) 2


Reciprocaring Total 2121.58 Rotating Total 1156.53
balance Factor % 50
Reciprocaring Total ½ 1060.79 Bobweight Total 2217.31

diff 0.71

My Individual part measurements:

Ref Number PISTON PIN TOTAL
1 598.5 158.1 756.6
2 598.1 158.3 756.4
3 597.3 158.1 755.4
4 599.6 158.2 757.8
5 598.3 158.2 756.5
6 597.3 158.2 755.5
7 597.9 158.3 756.2
8 598.9 158.0 756.9
AVE 598.2 158.2 756.4


ROD WEIGHTS
Ref Number TOTAL BIG END PIN END
1 771.0 528.3 242.7
2 770.7 528.7 241.5
3 770.4 528.5 242.1
4 770.5 528.8 242.9
5 770.6 528.4 242.8
6 769.6 528.4 241.5
7 771.1 528.5 242.7
8 770.4 528.1 242
AVE 770.5 528.5 242.3

By matching the light pistons with the heavier rods, I minimized the variation in the reciprocating end (piston, pin, small end of rod) to an average weight of 998.7 grams with less than 0.5 gram variance) The lightest combination being 0.29 gram less, and the heavy combination being 0.41 gram more.

Note that the slight difference in rod end weights could just be a slight difference in leveling the rod balance fixture. We are talking weight differences less than half a sheet of paper (A 8-1/2"x11" sheet of printer paper is about 4.5 grams.)
From this information, The Balance measurements from 440 Source look good.
I would have to send the crank out to have the balance on it checked, but I'm going to use it as is.

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: 451Mopar] #1024369
07/02/11 12:25 PM
07/02/11 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
Chris2581 Offline
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I don't know what the average + or - tolerance is with different scales,but looks like it's ready to go.Are you going to measure the crank journals,and see what they look like?


Nautilus Racing-
We use Superformance gaskets and Turbo Action converters/products.
Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Chris2581] #1024370
07/02/11 12:50 PM
07/02/11 12:50 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
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The journals were right on spec, just need to make sure the bearings clear the fillets at the ends of the journals.
The Main bearings that come with the kit actually have a fairly tight oil clearance spec of 0.0005" to 0.0026" (Clevite MS-1795V), that may be the reason some shops polish the mains to get more oil clearance. The GM 2.2" rod bearings have a 0.0010" to 0.0030" oil clearance spec (Clevite CB-743HN.)
My machine shop measured the 4.25" stroke crank 4.253" when measured to mill the block for zero deck? So fat i have only mocked it up for clearancing the 440 block and the crank and rods clear the cylinders easely, only close spot in the oilpump pickup boss. I took a small amount off the boss just to make sure, but it did clear, but was close before I removed the material.
So far everything is going together pretty nice and easy, except the cam bearings (in another post), and I could have gone with them as is, but I'm going to get new ones and clearance them by hand if needed, as I did not like the results from the slotted cam clearance trick as I think it removed more material then necessary.

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: 451Mopar] #1024371
07/02/11 03:17 PM
07/02/11 03:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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I've bought quire a few of 440Source's stuff and haven't been totally pleased with some of it. But I did buy a fully balanced stroker kit and am totally satisfied with it.

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Stanton] #1024372
07/02/11 08:48 PM
07/02/11 08:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 469
Tennessee
S
steeldust Offline
mopar
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Tennessee
I got a 572 kit from them and it was OK but i had it checked and the pistons was OK the rods was OK but the rods had to be honed out for the pins and the crank would run but i had it rebalanced because that"s what BRET said if you don"t won"t TROUBLE and it is running and sounding prefect but any kit i would have got i would have it checked and rebalanced but that"s just me and i would buy from them again so good luck

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: steeldust] #1024373
07/03/11 04:28 AM
07/03/11 04:28 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
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A few of the pin bushings seem tight. Not sure if the edges of the bushings may have been dinged a bit in shipping, or if the entire bushing was machined tight? I'll have to examine them closer to see.

The reason I bothered to measure all this, was when I built my 500" stroked 400 block, with a balanced kit, the machine shop told me it was out of balance and needed weight added to the crank.

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: 451Mopar] #1024374
07/03/11 09:20 AM
07/03/11 09:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 469
Tennessee
S
steeldust Offline
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Quote:

A few of the pin bushings seem tight. Not sure if the edges of the bushings may have been dinged a bit in shipping, or if the entire bushing was machined tight? I'll have to examine them closer to see.

The reason I bothered to measure all this, was when I built my 500" stroked 400 block, with a balanced kit, the machine shop told me it was out of balance and needed weight added to the crank.


I am not going to say that all kits are not right but if you are going to spend the money to build a motor be 100% that the parts are right if you torque the rod bolts or mains or heads do you just torque and stop no i check them three or four times will a machine shop can fine little things and i think your rods needs honing i bet if you won"t ever thing to run smooth with NO TROUBLE but i could wrong . GOOD LUCK

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: 451Mopar] #1024375
07/03/11 12:00 PM
07/03/11 12:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Big Squeeze Offline
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Quote:

The journals were right on spec, just need to make sure the bearings clear the fillets at the ends of the journals.
The Main bearings that come with the kit actually have a fairly tight oil clearance spec of 0.0005" to 0.0026" (Clevite MS-1795V), that may be the reason some shops polish the mains to get more oil clearance. The GM 2.2" rod bearings have a 0.0010" to 0.0030" oil clearance spec (Clevite CB-743HN.)
My machine shop measured the 4.25" stroke crank 4.253" when measured to mill the block for zero deck? So fat i have only mocked it up for clearancing the 440 block and the crank and rods clear the cylinders easely, only close spot in the oilpump pickup boss. I took a small amount off the boss just to make sure, but it did clear, but was close before I removed the material.
So far everything is going together pretty nice and easy, except the cam bearings (in another post), and I could have gone with them as is, but I'm going to get new ones and clearance them by hand if needed, as I did not like the results from the slotted cam clearance trick as I think it removed more material then necessary.




How's the indexing?? I had one that had a journal off .035" in one direction........I sent it back, got another one, and my original was resold.......


If you can't handle the truth, you're living a lie.......
Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Big Squeeze] #1024376
07/03/11 12:20 PM
07/03/11 12:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
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Delray beach, Florida
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Performance Only Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

The journals were right on spec, just need to make sure the bearings clear the fillets at the ends of the journals.
The Main bearings that come with the kit actually have a fairly tight oil clearance spec of 0.0005" to 0.0026" (Clevite MS-1795V), that may be the reason some shops polish the mains to get more oil clearance. The GM 2.2" rod bearings have a 0.0010" to 0.0030" oil clearance spec (Clevite CB-743HN.)
My machine shop measured the 4.25" stroke crank 4.253" when measured to mill the block for zero deck? So fat i have only mocked it up for clearancing the 440 block and the crank and rods clear the cylinders easely, only close spot in the oilpump pickup boss. I took a small amount off the boss just to make sure, but it did clear, but was close before I removed the material.
So far everything is going together pretty nice and easy, except the cam bearings (in another post), and I could have gone with them as is, but I'm going to get new ones and clearance them by hand if needed, as I did not like the results from the slotted cam clearance trick as I think it removed more material then necessary.




How's the indexing?? I had one that had a journal off .035" in one direction........I sent it back, got another one, and my original was resold.......




how did the replacement crank check out?


machine shop owner and engine builder
Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Big Squeeze] #1024377
07/03/11 01:29 PM
07/03/11 01:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 261
Wisconsin
BLONDE BARRACUDA Offline
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Wisconsin
not trying to stir the pot but how do you know your original was resold

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: BLONDE BARRACUDA] #1024378
07/03/11 02:07 PM
07/03/11 02:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
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Balt. Md
My 4.15 crank kit checked out very good but I also had tight pin rod bushings as it seems everyone I talk to see's this. I honed all of my rod pin bushings some to get the fit I liked. Everything else including miking the crank came out good. Ron

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: 383man] #1024379
07/03/11 02:16 PM
07/03/11 02:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,289
NE Ohio
DoubleD Online content
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Balanced kit does not mean ready to run! - as with any racing parts - you have to check the tolerences - tight pins are common place on after market rods - it's so you can fit them to your pins!

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: DoubleD] #1024380
07/03/11 05:12 PM
07/03/11 05:12 PM
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Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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When I got mine from 440Source, Brandon told me the pins would need to be honed to fit. He said that there are different .990" pin manufacturers and that none of them were actually exactly .990, some a little under some a little over so he had his rods come in for the smallest known diameter and then you can hone them to fit ANY .990 pin.

I've said it before that I think buying a pre balanced kit is a waste of $$ because there is no such thing as ready to run parts. If you have to have all the parts checked to confirm the bob weight anyway, you've already paid for a large portion of a balance job. You might as well pay the shop to finish the job and do the final balance too.

Kevin

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Performance Only] #1024381
07/03/11 06:06 PM
07/03/11 06:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Big Squeeze Offline
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Quote:



how did the replacement crank check out?




Had issues with that one too.......and a thread on here got deleted about it quite a while ago...........long story short, if I moved the crank forward, the counter weight would hit the block before the thrust did.........and he blamed it on my block, but a stock 400 and 383 crank both fit perfectly fine......Then the third one was actually fixable and then useable......

Quote:

not trying to stir the pot but how do you know your original was resold




Long story short, I brought the crank up in a thread and the Sourcerer goes into this huge spiel how about how I sent back a crank that was "supposedly bad" and he sent me another.........so I asked in that thread if he actually went through the trouble of checking that "supposedly bad" crank that I told him wasn't useable and he wouldn't answer, even though he was replying to other people and still bashing me.........I told him I wasn't worried about it.....just that I thought it'd be good for him to know to correct it on later cranks........Later in the thread, I said that since you won't answer and since you admitted you NEVER checked it yourself because you're saying that it was "supposedly bad" then I bet you've already resold it.........that's when the thread got deleted.......

If he'd have actually checked it, he'd have KNOWN it wasn't fixable .......and he knows that most people, especially Tight Wad Joe Dirte Mopar guys, aren't going to spend the coin to get their cranks indexed.......

That's when I put the wording in my sig below......


If you can't handle the truth, you're living a lie.......
Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Twostick] #1024382
07/03/11 06:08 PM
07/03/11 06:08 PM
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Birmingham, England
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Quote:

When I got mine from 440Source, Brandon told me the pins would need to be honed to fit. He said that there are different .990" pin manufacturers and that none of them were actually exactly .990, some a little under some a little over so he had his rods come in for the smallest known diameter and then you can hone them to fit ANY .990 pin.

I've said it before that I think buying a pre balanced kit is a waste of $$ because there is no such thing as ready to run parts. If you have to have all the parts checked to confirm the bob weight anyway, you've already paid for a large portion of a balance job. You might as well pay the shop to finish the job and do the final balance too.

Kevin




If that's the case, what about the pin fit in the piston. I hear of rods being honed to fit the pin all the time but I don't remember anyone saying they had to hone the pistons.


1970 Road Runner 505 cid MCH CNC ported Stealth heads MP 528 camshaft 4 speed GV overdrive 11.98 @ 117 on street treads
Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Mick70RR] #1024383
07/03/11 09:58 PM
07/03/11 09:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
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Balt. Md
Quote:

Quote:

When I got mine from 440Source, Brandon told me the pins would need to be honed to fit. He said that there are different .990" pin manufacturers and that none of them were actually exactly .990, some a little under some a little over so he had his rods come in for the smallest known diameter and then you can hone them to fit ANY .990 pin.

I've said it before that I think buying a pre balanced kit is a waste of $$ because there is no such thing as ready to run parts. If you have to have all the parts checked to confirm the bob weight anyway, you've already paid for a large portion of a balance job. You might as well pay the shop to finish the job and do the final balance too.

Kevin




If that's the case, what about the pin fit in the piston. I hear of rods being honed to fit the pin all the time but I don't remember anyone saying they had to hone the pistons.




All of my pins fit the pistons fine it was just the rods that were tight. Brandon never told me about a fit to size rod bushing but like I said I just honed my rods to get the fit I wanted with the pins. Ron

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Big Squeeze] #1024384
07/04/11 01:12 AM
07/04/11 01:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:



That's when I put the wording in my sig below......




And the wording in your sig line is why I had my crank hung in the grinder & checked.... My machinist said it was spot on & that he'd seen quite a few high $$ cranks that had worse taper & indexing issues.. So either I got lucky or Brandon took your comment & did something about it...


"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #1024385
07/04/11 01:16 AM
07/04/11 01:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,491
Oologah, Oklahoma
Big Squeeze Offline
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Quote:

Quote:



That's when I put the wording in my sig below......




And the wording in your sig line is why I had my crank hung in the grinder & checked.... My machinist said it was spot on & that he'd seen quite a few high $$ cranks that had worse taper & indexing issues.. So either I got lucky or Brandon took your comment & did something about it...




That's cool .........I'd actually bought quite a few cranks from him until that last deal broke the camel's back.........All the others either needed the rods or mains (or both) turned, but they were indexable and useable.........


If you can't handle the truth, you're living a lie.......
Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: Big Squeeze] #1024386
07/04/11 02:22 AM
07/04/11 02:22 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
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Today I assembled all the piston/rod assemblies, Installed the crank and installed all the pistons/rods without rings to check piston deck heights and crank indexing.
I did have three pins (on the rods) that were tight, but cleaned up easy. There was a post on turning torque, and with everything assembled (without) piston rings the turning torque is too low to measure with my ft/lb beam torque wrench. Even my click type torque wrench backed off to zero ft/lbs did not even click.
The Machine shop did a good job of getting the deck milled for zero deck height. I put a flat edge across each piston at TDC, and they were right at zero deck
I then installed my degree wheel and found TDC of #1. Then Verified TDC#6 was exactly the same.
Then verified #4 and #7 were at TDC when #1 is at 180 degrees. I verified the TDC using a piston stop that stopped the piston at 22 degrees before/after TDC or 180 (depending on which pistons was measured.) Anyhow, once again no issues and everything checked out. I still need to check crank thrust and rod side clearance.

Re: info - 440 Source balanced kit, my measurements. [Re: 451Mopar] #1024387
07/04/11 03:16 PM
07/04/11 03:16 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
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Crank thrust / end play is 0.007",
Rod side clearance for #1&2 rods = 0.012",
Rods #3&4 = 0.012"
Rods #5&6 = tighter than 0.010", so I'll have to fix that. This pair was also tight on my 500 stroker motor?
Rods #7&8 = 0.010".

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