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#1017161 - 06/22/11 11:39 AM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: CUDA8U]
DPelletier Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 15134
Loc: Kelowna, B.C. Canada
Quote:

that compression ratio with 500hp rating will run fine on pump gas?




Yes, with aluminum heads (depending on the cam) you should easily be able to run 10:1 or a bit more.

Dave
_________________________
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]

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#1017162 - 06/22/11 01:41 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: DPelletier]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16333
One thing no one has mentioned is size. For example, a B engine is a much happier fit in an A body than an RB. So a 4.25 stroke 383 would be my choice in a Dart.

About weight: I believe the stock weights between B and RB were heavily (!) influenced by cast iron intake manifold weight.

About compression: just be sure to get the pistons very close to or at zero deck to maximize squish. With the aluminum heads and everythign else in order you should be able to run 10.5:1 on pump premium.

R.

PS: By careful shopping you can take 200 grams out of each piston/pin combo which will make the 440 rev more like a smallblock.

PPS: Unless you already have crank and rods ready to go I'd say go stroker crank and aftermarket rods with 7/16" bolts.


Edited by dogdays (06/22/11 01:45 PM)

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#1017163 - 06/22/11 01:41 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: DPelletier]
RemCharger Offline
master

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 2818
Loc: Sk. Canada
Quote:

Quote:


EXACT same way, it WIll make more power.....it's not an opinion, it's simple physics.....not that hard to figure out really.


Dave



It may be physics..... but far from simple.
Bearing speeds/loads
Ring friction
Rod/stroke ratio
bore/stroke ratio
Cylinder Head flow/ cubic inch ratio
etc.
etc.
etc.

IIRC even Sonnys claims with bigger engines you get diminishing returns. I guess what it comes down to, is the 440 makes more low down torque, due to the long arm. If the 383 was .070 over, it should make more power at very high rpm. (4.320 vs. 4.320)
Food for thought....
_________________________
67 Charger 383 122.5 mph.

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#1017164 - 06/22/11 03:19 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: RemCharger]
DPelletier Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 15134
Loc: Kelowna, B.C. Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


EXACT same way, it WIll make more power.....it's not an opinion, it's simple physics.....not that hard to figure out really.


Dave



It may be physics..... but far from simple.
Bearing speeds/loads
Ring friction
Rod/stroke ratio
bore/stroke ratio
Cylinder Head flow/ cubic inch ratio
etc.
etc.
etc.

IIRC even Sonnys claims with bigger engines you get diminishing returns. I guess what it comes down to, is the 440 makes more low down torque, due to the long arm. If the 383 was .070 over, it should make more power at very high rpm. (4.320 vs. 4.320)
Food for thought....




Yes there are lots of incidental physics but the big picture really doesn't change much: the 440 is 15% bigger and you can expect it to make roughly 15% more power than an equivalent 383....that's all there is to it.

The whole bore vs. stroke thing is largly an urban myth; there was a really good article I've saved somewhere (Hotrod?) that tested two Mark IV BBC's, both the same displacement but one had a much longer stroke and the other had a much bigger bore. The idea was to prove (or disprove) the theory that the long stroke motor would develop more low end torque and the short stroke motor would have more high RPM power......in the end there was only a couple hp difference between the two motors; a negligeable amount.

....yet still the urban myth persists in many circles. I WILL however concede that the 383 would have less friction losses, but in the real world it doesn't change the whole 15% thing a noticeable amount.

The bottom line is that 383's and 440's are very similar engines and using the same compression ratio, cam, heads, manifolds/headers, carbs, etc. will yield a difference in output VERY close to the difference in displacement. Of course if you use a carb that is too small (or any other missmatching of components), that will favor the smaller displacement motor.

Also, at the end of the day, even if I was wrong and the 383 is more efficient, it certainly wouldn't (and isn't) 15% more efficient and since the cost to rebuild the two motors is virtually identical, the answer to the original question remains....the 440 is cheaper to get to 500hp...no ifs, ands or buts about it.


Dave
_________________________
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]

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#1017165 - 06/22/11 07:30 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: RemCharger]
RemCharger Offline
master

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 2818
Loc: Sk. Canada
Quote:

I'll have to agree with the majority on this one..
A good graintruck 440 will make for tire frying fun.


_________________________
67 Charger 383 122.5 mph.

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#1017166 - 06/22/11 08:37 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: CUDA8U]
Twostick Offline
master

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 5207
Loc: Downtown Roebuck Ont
Quote:

that compression ratio with 500hp rating will run fine on pump gas?




My 440 based 493 stroker is 8.97:1 and did 500hp 600 lb/ft. Runs fine on 87 regular. That is why there is no replacement for displacement.


Kevin

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#1017167 - 06/22/11 09:36 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: Twostick]
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel

Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 2275
Loc: Desert Tracker
Quote:

Quote:

that compression ratio with 500hp rating will run fine on pump gas?




My 440 based 493 stroker is 8.97:1 and did 500hp 600 lb/ft. Runs fine on 87 regular. That is why there is no replacement for displacement.


Kevin [/quote ]

GOOD Opinion. But not everybody runs
the displacement!! Some people like the hi-rpm
adrenalin rush of mid to top end power!!

_________________________
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)

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#1017168 - 06/22/11 10:00 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: DPelletier]
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel

Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 2275
Loc: Desert Tracker
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


EXACT same way, it WIll make more power.....it's not an opinion, it's simple physics.....not that hard to figure out really.


Dave



It may be physics..... but far from simple.
Bearing speeds/loads
Ring friction
Rod/stroke ratio
bore/stroke ratio
Cylinder Head flow/ cubic inch ratio
etc.
etc.
etc.

IIRC even Sonnys claims with bigger engines you get diminishing returns. I guess what it comes down to, is the 440 makes more low down torque, due to the long arm. If the 383 was .070 over, it should make more power at very high rpm. (4.320 vs. 4.320)
Food for thought....




Yes there are lots of incidental physics but the big picture really doesn't change much: the 440 is 15% bigger and you can expect it to make roughly 15% more power than an equivalent 383....that's all there is to it.

The whole bore vs. stroke thing is largly an urban myth; there was a really good article I've saved somewhere (Hotrod?) that tested two Mark IV BBC's, both the same displacement but one had a much longer stroke and the other had a much bigger bore. The idea was to prove (or disprove) the theory that the long stroke motor would develop more low end torque and the short stroke motor would have more high RPM power......in the end there was only a couple hp difference between the two motors; a negligeable amount.

....yet still the urban myth persists in many circles. I WILL however concede that the 383 would have less friction losses, but in the real world it doesn't change the whole 15% thing a noticeable amount.

The bottom line is that 383's and 440's are very similar engines and using the same compression ratio, cam, heads, manifolds/headers, carbs, etc. will yield a difference in output VERY close to the difference in displacement. Of course if you use a carb that is too small (or any other missmatching of components), that will favor the smaller displacement motor.

Also, at the end of the day, even if I was wrong and the 383 is more efficient, it certainly wouldn't (and isn't) 15% more efficient and since the cost to rebuild the two motors is virtually identical, the answer to the original question remains....the 440 is cheaper to get to 500hp...no ifs, ands or buts about it.


Dave




Another great opinion. Would with it:
Yes.. and NO!! Yes, the 440 may be cheaper to get to the 500hp level. NO, you cannot build the two
motors identical since they produce power at two different rpm ranges - 440 at the stronger low end to upper midrange, 383 at midrange to topend (cyl head/carb flow limit). Different design characteristics that can only be compared equally
by bore/stroke changes. Food for thought 57 cubes (440) vs an extended engine power peak rpm limit by nearly 1000 rpms (383).

_________________________
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)

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#1017169 - 06/22/11 10:06 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: ChinooK440]
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel

Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 2275
Loc: Desert Tracker
Quote:

383 are slugs for mild steet engines .... not enough low end torque for me ,,,,i,d take a 360 before
a 383 ..........i,s pitty da fool who,s runs da tree eighty 3




I,s guess youse mister pitty who got FOOLed by a
HARD running tree eighty 3 out-legging ya thru the traps, huh!!



Edited by HYPER8oSoNic (06/22/11 10:18 PM)
_________________________
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)

Top
#1017170 - 06/22/11 10:16 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: DPelletier]
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel

Registered: 11/21/09
Posts: 2275
Loc: Desert Tracker
Quote:

Quote:



How much for the 383?





shoot cant be worth much now!! they just said a 440 can out run it!!
i dono , got about 750$ in the block 1100$ in heads, el-cheapo cam 300$
so throw it away ,hahah lol, i'am so scared to bring it out now ,with all them there 440 s going to beat me up







It's ok, you can calm down; nobody said that 383's can't run strong or make over 500hp. What I (and others) DID say is that if you built a 440 the EXACT same way, it WIll make more power.....it's not an opinion, it's simple physics.....not that hard to figure out really.


Dave





Then I'll tell you this... DO not say the same exact way, but build BOTH to the 500 hp level!!
THAT'S EQUAL, since you have a set hp limits. Comparing exact (identical parts and procedures between the two)
builds and which motor's closest to 500hp isn't a contest at all!!

_________________________
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)

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#1017171 - 06/23/11 05:47 AM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
ireland383 Offline
super stock

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 842
Loc: Suffolk,VA
All I know is that I whooped up on many 440's with my Wee83!

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#1017172 - 06/23/11 06:39 AM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: ireland383]
DennisH Offline
Vacation

Registered: 12/14/04
Posts: 5278
Loc: San Jose, California
Nothing like BB low end grunt rumpity rump. From the basement. 440. Otherwise you're just "explaining.

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#1017173 - 06/23/11 09:45 AM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
HotRodDave Online   content
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9972
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



How much for the 383?





shoot cant be worth much now!! they just said a 440 can out run it!!
i dono , got about 750$ in the block 1100$ in heads, el-cheapo cam 300$
so throw it away ,hahah lol, i'am so scared to bring it out now ,with all them there 440 s going to beat me up







It's ok, you can calm down; nobody said that 383's can't run strong or make over 500hp. What I (and others) DID say is that if you built a 440 the EXACT same way, it WIll make more power.....it's not an opinion, it's simple physics.....not that hard to figure out really.


Dave





Then I'll tell you this... DO not say the same exact way, but build BOTH to the 500 hp level!!
THAT'S EQUAL, since you have a set hp limits. Comparing exact (identical parts and procedures between the two)
builds and which motor's closest to 500hp isn't a contest at all!!






OK so spend extra money on the 383 so you can get to 500 hp in the first place and still be down nearly 100 ft lbs of TQ no thanks.
_________________________
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




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#1017174 - 06/23/11 10:04 AM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: HotRodDave]
dennismopar73 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 2174
Loc: ill
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



How much for the 383?





shoot cant be worth much now!! they just said a 440 can out run it!!
i dono , got about 750$ in the block 1100$ in heads, el-cheapo cam 300$
so throw it away ,hahah lol, i'am so scared to bring it out now ,with all them there 440 s going to beat me up







It's ok, you can calm down; nobody said that 383's can't run strong or make over 500hp. What I (and others) DID say is that if you built a 440 the EXACT same way, it WIll make more power.....it's not an opinion, it's simple physics.....not that hard to figure out really.


Dave





Then I'll tell you this... DO not say the same exact way, but build BOTH to the 500 hp level!!
THAT'S EQUAL, since you have a set hp limits. Comparing exact (identical parts and procedures between the two)
builds and which motor's closest to 500hp isn't a contest at all!!






OK so spend extra money on the 383 so you can get to 500 hp in the first place and still be down nearly 100 ft lbs of TQ no thanks.




extra money, i dont think so
its the same money ,if youre building 500 hp weather its 383/440
i personal know of 4 engines close to me 2 or 440 2 are 383 block motors, the 383 out run those 440 same builds,
i also know of a 451 on a 400 plateform and a 452 on a 440 plateform
and the 400 plateform out runs that 440 by 4 tenths , in a car that is 100 # heavier,
so dont say its not cant be done oo by the way the 400 block was the cheaper build! same cam heads and comp ,

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#1017175 - 06/23/11 10:54 AM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: dennismopar73]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Dwayne Porter made 504HP with a 383 +.030 with UNPORTED 906's and TRW flattop pistons with a CAST crank...


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#1017176 - 06/23/11 10:58 AM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: JohnRR]
RemCharger Offline
master

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 2818
Loc: Sk. Canada
Quote:

Dwayne Porter made 504HP with a 383 +.030 with UNPORTED 906's and TRW flattop pistons with a CAST crank...




_________________________
67 Charger 383 122.5 mph.

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#1017177 - 06/23/11 12:03 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: JohnRR]
Mr.Yuck Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 24270
Loc: Brookeville, Md
Quote:

Dwayne Porter made 504HP with a 383 +.030 with UNPORTED 906's and TRW flattop pistons with a CAST crank...






And I bet he could make over 600 w/a 440...so what's your point?
_________________________

Coming soon!!!!

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#1017178 - 06/23/11 12:42 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: Mr.Yuck]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

Quote:

Dwayne Porter made 504HP with a 383 +.030 with UNPORTED 906's and TRW flattop pistons with a CAST crank...






And I bet he could make over 600 w/a 440...so what's your point?




He has , it's in the archives.

I'm not getting into the pissing contest of bigger is always better , it's old and boring because it's always the same regurgitated and .

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#1017179 - 06/23/11 01:39 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: dennismopar73]
DPelletier Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 15134
Loc: Kelowna, B.C. Canada
Quote:

extra money, i dont think so
its the same money ,if youre building 500 hp weather its 383/440





and THAT's where you're wrong; you can get the 383 to 500hp but you HAVE to spend more money to do it than you would with a 440. Just the way it is. SOMETHING has to be done to make up for the 57 cubic inches.




Dave
_________________________
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]

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#1017180 - 06/23/11 01:43 PM Re: 383 VS 440 [Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
DPelletier Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 15134
Loc: Kelowna, B.C. Canada
Quote:

Comparing exact (identical parts and procedures between the two)
builds and which motor's closest to 500hp isn't a contest at all!!






I agree; it isn't a contest at all! , comparing exact (identical parts and procedures between the two) guarantees only one result: the 440 makes more power.......WHICH IS WHAT THE QUESTION WAS!!


Dave
_________________________
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]

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