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I'm the original owner of my RR. Since it was vertually new I've run nothing but Dextron ATF. Never broke it and never had to change parts because of wear. Say what you will about ATF. Everyone has an opinion. Mine is there is nothing to be affraid of with ATF. I race my car, but most of the time it is street driven. No issues at all doing either. When racing, it shifts like butter through a hot knife. On the street, the same, hot or cold. Take it from 43 years of first hand experience. ATF does work in A833's. ATF4 is another story. I don't have any experience with it. But being nothing more than an ATF synthetic, it should work also, but with an additional cost.

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I agree - and anyone who thinks ATF will cause damage is nuts!


My dad is the original owner of a '70 challenger 383 4 speed car - he now has 114,000 miles on it. it had a rebuild at 112,000 miles and all that went in it was bearings, shift forks, seals, & gaskets.
He towed a camper trailer from NJ to as far as Missouri. He also drag races it when he has time and is never easy on it.


Guess what was in it? ATF!

guess what went back in it ? ATF

Trailer in the 70's ( skyline drive)


Here is how he drives it...




ATF has never been a problem -

The only other lube I'd recommend is the one Jamie Passon makes on his own, as I am sure he has a well developed product.

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This is for a street driver, no racing, with an occasional Jungle Jim style burnout. FSM says 140 or 90, but since I have enough ATF4 on hand I thought I'd seek some input

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I have owned many Mopars with NP 833 4 speeds in them that had ATF in them from the factory ATF will work excellent and make the trans. shift a lot easier than 75-80W gear oil will Especially if you live in a area that has cool to cold weather A 727 trans have a lot more gears and pressures internally than a NP833 does

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BTW. The absolute BEST fluid to run in one of these units is GM Synchromesh. YOu will not believe the shift quality with this fluid in there.

MB

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I have heard this more than once.. I picked up some 80W90 high pressure gear oil for mine, but im wondering if I should give the synchromesh a try

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I agree - and anyone who thinks ATF will cause damage is nuts!

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I agree - and anyone who thinks ATF will cause damage is nuts!

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As a factory tech in the 80's I saw a number of 833's (In trucks of course) with excessive bearing wear which in my opinion was caused by the factory fill of ATF used at the time for better MPG.

The lightest fill I would use would be a 15W40 or other such lube but not ATF

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If you take not of the picture I attached - The 4 speed ( 23 spline ) that I am basing my post on has towed a camper, with a family of 4 and bikes on the roof - it was beat on heavily it's entire life. It had brass syncro's and they were in excellent condition and did not need to be replaced.

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The roller bearings on the countershaft seem to really get hammered the most, ATF doesn't have great lubrication properties compared to gear oil or even motoroil.

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The transmissions I have rebuilt that were ATF filled all needed the cluster gear shaft replaced , very noticeable wear pattern from the rollers.

If ATF is the godsend then why does one even have to replace the bearings? They should last forever, correct ?

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maybe if it sits... like in your case - and does not get driven...lol

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well I do - and they were ATF when shipped around here.

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Since I live further North than you I can only ASSuME that the factory fill here was also ATF but for some reason the owners of some/many cars switched to gear oil?

We will never agree on this.

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I see a difference between the ATF that the factory recommended in the sixties/seventies and the ATF+4 of today. "Slippery" fluid defeats the purpose of the synchro rings.

Even though some current standard transmissions use +4 from the factory they have different (composite?) synchros than the 833.

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there is even a difference between the recommended fill of Dexron to the currently available Dexron/Mercron III , I wouldn't even think of using that +3 or +4 fluid.

John is also correct late model manual transmissions thaat call for ATF don't have BRASS syncro stop rings .

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Have a read.............

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I used 1 qt of ATF and filled the rest with 80w90. That seemed to give me the best feel when shifting. I tried all 80w90 and it was to hard to shift and straight ATF was just too loose feeling and gave me personally the wrong feel for shifting causing mis-shifts. So I compromised and mixed them.

Is there something out there better? Maybe, and yea, the Factory service manuals I have seen all called for straight ATF. But I will never run it straight in my stuff again. At the time too (about 10 years ago), ATF and 80w90 were CHEAP! Nowadays with dino oils approaching that of synthetics, I mght be inclined to try a synthetic when I get my 4-speed back together in a running vehicle.

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In my A833 (23spline) I run 80-90W gear oil that says it works well in extreme pressure and hypoid type of rear ends. It also says it works well in manual transmission and differentials.

There is usually difficulty in shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear fairly consistently...and it seems to occur more often when the car gets warmed up.

The trans is in my 70 Charger RT with 512RB engine with a new Hurst competition plus shifter kit. Could this problem be caused by the type of fluid?

Or is there another thing that could be causing the problem

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I am now worried about this also...I just got done filling up my A833 with 80W90 extreme pressure gear oil from the local auto parts house...Will I now have problems shifting it????

Wish I had known this before

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In my A833 (23spline) I run 80-90W gear oil that says it works well in extreme pressure and hypoid type of rear ends. It also says it works well in manual transmission and differentials.

There is usually difficulty in shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear fairly consistently...and it seems to occur more often when the car gets warmed up.

The trans is in my 70 Charger RT with 512RB engine with a new Hurst competition plus shifter kit. Could this problem be caused by the type of fluid?

Or is there another thing that could be causing the problem

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In my A833 (23spline) I run 80-90W gear oil that says it works well in extreme pressure and hypoid type of rear ends. It also says it works well in manual transmission and differentials.

There is usually difficulty in shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear fairly consistently...and it seems to occur more often when the car gets warmed up.

The trans is in my 70 Charger RT with 512RB engine with a new Hurst competition plus shifter kit. Could this problem be caused by the type of fluid?

Or is there another thing that could be causing the problem

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If it's GL5 that is your problem.

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Is there a such thing as GL4 extreme pressure lube? I am using cheap house brand oil, so im hoping that even though its extreme pressure its still maybe GL4...I hope will using the GL5 actually deteriorate the synchros?

Took me forever to fill the darn thing too

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Syncromesh will work fine, but is more prone to leaking.
Dan

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Amen to that. I had a couple of tiny leaks that weren't bad enough to warrant trany r&r until I tried Syncromesh. I would think that atf would leak just as bad.

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GL5 will not deteriorate the syncros , you may have gear clash ... aka shifting issues ... since you love to cheap out on stuff , run it and tell us how it works .

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thats it, I just LOVE to cheap out on stuff

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If you can't find it local I have Penn 80/90 GL4. Syncromesh will work fine, but is more prone to leaking.
Dan

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In my A833 (23spline) I run 80-90W gear oil that says it works well in extreme pressure and hypoid type of rear ends. It also says it works well in manual transmission and differentials.

There is usually difficulty in shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear fairly consistently...and it seems to occur more often when the car gets warmed up.

The trans is in my 70 Charger RT with 512RB engine with a new Hurst competition plus shifter kit. Could this problem be caused by the type of fluid?

Or is there another thing that could be causing the problem

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If it's GL5 that is your problem.

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Well I simply did not know that I was running something that was not compatible with the type of gear setup in my trans.

But...yep it says SAE 80W-90 GL-5,GL-4,GL-3 on the bottle. The trans shifts like butter except from 2nd to 3rd when the trans starts to get warmer the longer I am cruising.

I thought that I was doing a good thing buy running the thicker 80w-90....but I guess all 80W-90 is not created equal.

I am gonna dump that stuff and get some other gear oil in there.

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But...yep it says SAE 80W-90 GL-5,GL-4,GL-3 on the bottle. The trans shifts like butter except from 2nd to 3rd when the trans starts to get warmer the longer I am cruising.

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I don't know enough about oils to know if it's possible to rate an oil like that , if it has the stuff for GL5 in there can it really be 4 and 3 compatible ?

Put a thinner oil in it , heck put ATF in , it must be ok since I read it on the internet ...

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But...yep it says SAE 80W-90 GL-5,GL-4,GL-3 on the bottle. The trans shifts like butter except from 2nd to 3rd when the trans starts to get warmer the longer I am cruising.

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I don't know enough about oils to know if it's possible to rate an oil like that , if it has the stuff for GL5 in there can it really be 4 and 3 compatible ?

Put a thinner oil in it , heck put ATF in , it must be ok since I read it on the internet ...

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Nahh..I am gonna stay away from the internet ATF. I will call Jamie at Passon and get some of his stuff.

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ATF has never been a problem -

The only other lube I'd recommend is the one Jamie Passon makes on his own, as I am sure he has a well developed product.

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back in 1970/71 mopar put out memo that was directed to owners in cold weather states saying if stick trannys shifted hard in xx degrees and colder,drop gear oil and put in atf.thought that a bit odd but reports back from cws was "thanks can shift the sob now"

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not to resurrect an older thread, but i feel i need some advice.

some of you have seen and replied in my other thread about my A833 grinding when i make the 1-2 shift under partial or hard throttle, but not under very light acceleration. I have taken the whole transmission apart and inspected every peice, and everything is working and worn as it should be with no visible issues at all. I changed the fluid in the transmission to AC delco synchromesh, and now im wondering my problem is the fluid im using?

Im thinking of trying ATF since i see quite a few people recommend it, and since its also dirt cheap and there is no non GL5 gear oil on any shelf here. Im wondering though what kind of ATF should I be trying? Dextron? Mercon? straight ATF? does it matter if its Dextron 3 or 4? Just looking for some input here since id like to refill the trans with ATF and see what happens

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not to resurrect an older thread, but i feel i need some advice.

some of you have seen and replied in my other thread about my A833 grinding when i make the 1-2 shift under partial or hard throttle, but not under very light acceleration. I have taken the whole transmission apart and inspected every peice, and everything is working and worn as it should be with no visible issues at all. I changed the fluid in the transmission to AC delco synchromesh, and now im wondering my problem is the fluid im using?

Im thinking of trying ATF since i see quite a few people recommend it, and since its also dirt cheap and there is no non GL5 gear oil on any shelf here. Im wondering though what kind of ATF should I be trying? Dextron? Mercon? straight ATF? does it matter if its Dextron 3 or 4? Just looking for some input here since id like to refill the trans with ATF and see what happens

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Forget that idea. Its not the fluid. Think about it, if it was an issue of the fluid(which it clearly isn't), then why only 2nd gear? Follow that logic?

Did you do what I mentioned for you to do in tn my previous post in this thread?

MB

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Having tried many fluids the best for a getting a "touchy" transmission to shift well is Redline synthetic. Its available in two grades: "MTL" which is 70W80 from memory and 90 weight. Either one would work in an 833 - I'd suggest the MTL for easiest shifting with adequate protection of bearings/gears. Summit and others sell it.

I believe the ATF and syncromesh options are too light for an 833 (I know, controversial topic). That said if it won't shift smoothly on syncromesh you might well have problems with the hard parts as posted above.

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Well the hard parts have been inspected as per instructions here by a qualified manual transmission mechanic and everything is in good working order. I was kinda disappointed to not find anything wrong because now im really stumped. Gonna put it back on the road and see what happens.

Now im really confused...do i spring for some gear oil, or go to ATF? lol

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My dad is the original owner of a '70 challenger 383 4 speed car - he now has 114,000 miles on it. it had a rebuild at 112,000 miles and all that went in it was bearings, shift forks, seals, & gaskets.
He towed a camper trailer from NJ to as far as Missouri. He also drag races it when he has time and is never easy on it.

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My dad is the original owner of a '70 challenger 383 4 speed car - he now has 114,000 miles on it. it had a rebuild at 112,000 miles and all that went in it was bearings, shift forks, seals, & gaskets.
He towed a camper trailer from NJ to as far as Missouri. He also drag races it when he has time and is never easy on it.

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DJV CUDA, Please tell all of us the comlete story of why that 1970 Challenger has a 1971 and newer side cover on the trans. You posted a picture of the inside of that trans years ago and I remember you had more to tell about this trans than you are saying here. You had an explaiation for the side cover being changed. That will shed some more light on this original trans that wasn't rebuilt till 112,000 miles.

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Dad ordered this car in late 69, is was built in late '69 and he got it early 1970.
during the first year of his ownership ( going by his story ) he has shifting issues with the original tranny, he had taken the car to Cherry Hill Dodge to have it looked at. He watched as they pulled the trans, pulled it apart, and proceeded to get looked over by about everyone in the shop, they came to him several hours later trying to say they had an issue with the tranny ( Syncros ) and it might be awhile before they could get him a new one, Dad apparently asked if they knew how to put the tranny back together with new syncros, and they told him no!

He had to wait and was given a new tranny. all was well for the next 112,000 miles.

When we rebuilt this ( with the help of Jamie Passon ) we ordered all the parts necessary for a 23 spline 833 and gave Jamie measurements on the front bearing that was supplied with the unit. We recieved the parts and then noticed that the bearing retainer was larger then the bearing. Calling Jamie Passon revealed that we had a small block tranny in a big block bell ( large retainer hole, small retainer bearing)

Jamie was excellent about swapping parts for us, and I bet he remembers this story to this day ( this was rebuild several years ago now)

Anyway, the car was run, with the 1971 tranny since late 1970 till about 2005 / 2006 with the bearing retainer not doing it's job, towing, racing etc... all not centered properly - the good thing is that it was centered close enough and didnt break!

Thats the whole story, probably still confirmable by Jamie himself.

We got it back together, needing new bearings, seals, gaskets, and shift forks.

Cherry Hill Dodge is still in buisness, and has about the same workmanship issues to this day...lol... he wanted to take it back to them and break balls since they didnt know what they were doing inthe first place and messed him us second!

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Cherry Hill Dodge is still in buisness, and has about the same workmanship issues to this day...lol

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a bunch of hacks at that place.

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Think about it, if it was an issue of the fluid(which it clearly isn't), then why only 2nd gear? Follow that logic?

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I love these posts...well not really...lot's of opinions and hot air, little fact.

Why you would anything other than Passon lube in a 4 speed is beyond me. The year is 2011 NOT 1971!.

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I love these post too! Ya' first hand experience here. I'm the original owner of my RR. First 10 years of it's life, it was our family car/daily driver/grocery getter. Now it is my weekend cruiser and part time race car. Since about a month after I bought it the trans has had nothing but ATF. No unusal issues at all. How's 43 years of experience suit you?

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Think about it, if it was an issue of the fluid(which it clearly isn't), then why only 2nd gear? Follow that logic?

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Why only second gear? Because the ratio change from 1st to 2nd is larger than the other gears, so the stop rings have to work harder on the 1-2 shift.

Fluid type has an effect on stop ring efficiency, slippery fluid isn't good.

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Think about it, if it was an issue of the fluid(which it clearly isn't), then why only 2nd gear? Follow that logic?

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Why only second gear? Because the ratio change from 1st to 2nd is larger than the other gears, so the stop rings have to work harder on the 1-2 shift.

Fluid type has an effect on stop ring efficiency, slippery fluid isn't good.

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have actually had guys tell me that ATF displaces better than synchromesh or gear oil which would be better for the synchros. I just picked up some Type F ATF for a pretty good price, so im going to try it out...hopefully it works but if not im going to have to special order some GL4...the transmission is gonna have seen every fluid besides engine oil lol

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I've NEVER tried Type F. I use Dextron.

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have actually had guys tell me that ATF displaces better than synchromesh or gear oil which would be better for the synchros. I just picked up some Type F ATF for a pretty good price, so im going to try it out...hopefully it works but if not im going to have to special order some GL4...the transmission is gonna have seen every fluid besides engine oil lol

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I've NEVER tried Type F. I use Dextron.

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Type F is supposed to have more friction modifiers in it. It's less sliperier.....

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True. GM and chrysler used servos and governors to modify shift points. Ford tuned with the fluid itself. Ive been told to use Dexron/Mercron to but would the synchronizers need benefit from a friction adder? Im sure the gears and bearings wouldn't though.

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Type F is supposed to have more friction modifiers in it. It's less sliperier.....

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well I just took it for a drive and its shifting like a dream! This thing is getting Type F from now on! and in case anyone is wondering which one i used, it was castrol brand type F, so nothing fancy really

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be sure to let us know in 3-6 months of driving, if it's still in one piece

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well I just took it for a drive and its shifting like a dream! This thing is getting Type F from now on! and in case anyone is wondering which one i used, it was castrol brand type F, so nothing fancy really

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be sure to let us know in 3-6 months of driving, if it's still in one piece

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no problem will do

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Type F is supposed to have more friction modifiers in it. It's less sliperier.....

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First statement false, second statement true. Type F has no friction modifiers, Dex/Merc has some, and HFM (highly friction modified) fluids like ATF+4 have the most. These friction modifiers affect the performance/behavior of friction materials, such as the clutch plates and bands in an AT.

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so with Type having the least friction modifiers it should "technically" be the best ATF for one of these brass synchro transmissions like the A833?

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