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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
pistons and cam to a 360
      #5636330 - Mon Nov 30 2009 10:54 AM

I have been up with this subject before, but want to be sure I am doing right.
I have a completely stock 1976 360 block in very good condition. The heads to be used are casting 3418915 2,02 valve. The cc are 64,2
I want to give the engine a new set of pistons and a performance cam to gain more power.

I am kean to buy a complete engine rebuilt kit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Ply...sQ5fAccessories

But has been told I can get more performance without compromise drive ability.

Have in this forum been advised to install
Keith black 190 pistons and Comp cam extreme energy XE284H cam

Can it be confirmed this set up will cause no trouble on pump gas, also I don't want to ruin idle.
Can I really run pump gas on a compression rate above 10,5:1 ?

Or should I more likely go for KB107 pistons and XE268H cam.


All competent advice and experience welcome
Thanks

Edited by Moparbil (Mon Nov 30 2009 11:15 AM)


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5636370 - Mon Nov 30 2009 11:14 AM

I'd go KB107's and a lunati voodoo 60303.

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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MoparforLife
moparts member


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Upper Midwest
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: patrick]
      #5636371 - Mon Nov 30 2009 11:16 AM

Quote:

I'd go KB107's and a lunati voodoo 60303.




--------------------
Clean it, if it's Dirty. Oil it, if it Squeaks.
But: Don't fix it, if it Works!


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RapidRobert
circle track


Reged: Nov 20 2003
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: MoparforLife]
      #5636622 - Mon Nov 30 2009 01:43 PM

#1 is to get your quench (piston to head clearance) at .040". this will allow you to run a much higher CR wo pinging on pump gas that would for sure ping if your quench is over 045". With open chambered heads this will take alot of extra machine shop labor which is why closed chambers are so desireable.

--------------------
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth


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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: RapidRobert]
      #5639246 - Tue Dec 01 2009 02:03 PM

Is it necessary to use a quiet hot cam like the Comp cam XE284H with the KB190 pistons to make it work. I guess a hot cam takes some of the compression.
But how will it affect idle.

Any advice on best cam with KB190 pistons and still having a reasonable idle.

Will there be a perceptible difference in power between the use of KB190 vs KB107

I assume KB107 pistons macth best with XE268H or similar.


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joedust451
super gas


Reged: Feb 09 2005
Loc: Branson, Mo.
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5640034 - Tue Dec 01 2009 07:05 PM

Don't wimp out lol, or stay conservative, if you want power out of that 360, then build power, i've run the KB107s with a small comp cam, it ran well, but "nothing" like the 370 i did up with KB190s, XE284H & RPM intake with a 750dp, you will be much happier trust me, you'll get the quench you need, & it'll run on pump premium, the comp. will be around 10.3/10.4 if the heads haven't been milled, i ran completely stock 915s, 2800 stall & 4.56 gears, it had BB power, this was also running PS & PBs, The KB 190s are safe to .600 lift if memory serves me (this is with un-milled Js), with your 915s haveing 202s, you might want to consider the XE285HL, if you can go .040" or even .060" over, you might want to consider that, mine never ran hot, never any detination, you can run a step or 2 colder plug, my cranking pressure was right around 190 psi.

--------------------
75 Duster, 451 10.87 @ 123.58 NA
97 Z28 6sp., 12.01 @ 115 on a 100 shot
71 Swinger. 360 magnum. 12.58 @ 105
78 cutlass, 469 BBC. 12.70 @ 108 on street tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2kqNmMfheU


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Anonymous
Unregistered



Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: joedust451]
      #5640133 - Tue Dec 01 2009 07:38 PM

Comp XE284H and KB IC742 forged [10:1 w/64cc head] pistons. thats my nickle.

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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: joedust451]
      #5641039 - Wed Dec 02 2009 08:52 AM

OK OK joedust451 you sound convincingly sure.
I go for big power and hopefully no trouble.

I am going to use stock crank and rods.

But tell me, how will the idle be.
Much of the thrill with V8 is the rumbling sound.
Would be sad to hear a rough mill.


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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5644002 - Thu Dec 03 2009 01:50 PM

Quote:

OK OK joedust451 you sound convincingly sure.
I go for big power and hopefully no trouble.

I am going to use stock crank and rods.

But tell me, how will the idle be.
Much of the thrill with V8 is the rumbling sound.
Would be sad to hear a rough mill.




?????

Do I need to take special precaution with regards to the extra load and stress bearing shells main caps and cylinder head are exposed to.


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451Mopar
mopar addict


Reged: May 19 2008
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5645196 - Thu Dec 03 2009 10:34 PM

Quote:

I have been up with this subject before, but want to be sure I am doing right.
All competent advice and experience welcome
Thanks




I need more information before I can give any you any advice on component selection.

#1 - What is the vehicle this engine is being used for?
#2 - How is the vehicle going to be used (daily driver, performance street, street/strip, race?)
#3 - What is the drivetrain (transmission, converter stall, axle gear ratio, tire size?)
#4 - any additional info like vehicle weight, performance desired, do you need to meet emissions testing, Fuel octane rating, operating altitude, parts that you wish to use, and estimated budget for the parts?

The above info will be helpful in getting accurate suggestions for parts that will work together.


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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5645296 - Fri Dec 04 2009 01:52 AM


#1 Plymouth Cuda 1970

#2 Daily drive / performance street,

#3 TF727, JW converter 11" 24-2800 stall
3:23 ratio 235/60x15 wheels

#4 Standard Cuda weight (app. 3000 lbs)
Would like strong torque in low end, around
400HP. Emission test max 3,0 CO. Fuel octane 95
no lead. Operating at sea level.
As in my origin question, a complete engine rebuild kit supplemented with high comp. pistons like KB190 or KB107 and cam like XE284H or XE268H
Is a litlle worried about exstreme parts as crank and rods are stock and as been runing unknown miles, (the journals looks fine, though) Looking at the bores it seems to be a low mile engine.
A cylinder service shop adviced me to bore it 20 over and leave the crank untouched.
Budget max 1000$
However I have also noticed the stroker kits offered around 1500$ But this was not my orginal plan, still think pistons and cam change will do.


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shaker340
enthusiast


Reged: Aug 06 2004
Loc: Eastern Ontario
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5645443 - Fri Dec 04 2009 06:59 AM

I'll be following this thread closely, I have exact same car and engine. I was thinking of using KB107 pistons with my current 8:1 comp 360, small valve heads, air gap intake, TTI headers and XE268 cam. My application is street cruising.

Mike

--------------------
1970 Barracuda
1964 D100


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5645625 - Fri Dec 04 2009 08:52 AM

Quote:


#1 Plymouth Cuda 1970

#2 Daily drive / performance street,

#3 TF727, JW converter 11" 24-2800 stall
3:23 ratio 235/60x15 wheels

#4 Standard Cuda weight (app. 3000 lbs)
Would like strong torque in low end, around
400HP. Emission test max 3,0 CO. Fuel octane 95
no lead. Operating at sea level.
As in my origin question, a complete engine rebuild kit supplemented with high comp. pistons like KB190 or KB107 and cam like XE284H or XE268H
Is a litlle worried about exstreme parts as crank and rods are stock and as been runing unknown miles, (the journals looks fine, though) Looking at the bores it seems to be a low mile engine.
A cylinder service shop adviced me to bore it 20 over and leave the crank untouched.
Budget max 1000$
However I have also noticed the stroker kits offered around 1500$ But this was not my orginal plan, still think pistons and cam change will do.




these specs, KB107 and a comp XE268 or voodoo 60403 will be much better than the Xe284. you'll want 3.73 or steeper gears and another 400-500 stall RPM for the bigger cam.

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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451Mopar
mopar addict


Reged: May 19 2008
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5647586 - Fri Dec 04 2009 10:24 PM

Quote:


#1 Plymouth Cuda 1970

#2 Daily drive / performance street,

#3 TF727, JW converter 11" 24-2800 stall
3:23 ratio 235/60x15 wheels

#4 Standard Cuda weight (app. 3000 lbs)
Would like strong torque in low end, around
400HP. Emission test max 3,0 CO. Fuel octane 95
no lead. Operating at sea level.
As in my origin question, a complete engine rebuild kit supplemented with high comp. pistons like KB190 or KB107 and cam like XE284H or XE268H
Is a litlle worried about exstreme parts as crank and rods are stock and as been runing unknown miles, (the journals looks fine, though) Looking at the bores it seems to be a low mile engine.
A cylinder service shop adviced me to bore it 20 over and leave the crank untouched.
Budget max 1000$
However I have also noticed the stroker kits offered around 1500$ But this was not my orginal plan, still think pistons and cam change will do.




Thanks for the info. I will look into the parts combination tomorrow on my desktop computer. I'm on my laptop right naw and it has a cracked screen, so it is a PITA to work on.
Here is my initial thoughts:
stock crank and rods will be fine if they pass inspection for straightness and cracks, but the rod bolts will have to be replaced with higher strength rod bolts like those from ARP. You will want to recondition the rods after replacing the rod bolts to make sure the rods big end is round.
You may want to compare the cost of the machine work and rod bolts to the cost of aftermarket rods? I have not looked into comparing the costs, but it is something to consider.
Next, I would get the B&M 360 flexplate and have it and the dampner you use all ballanced so you do not need a specially ballanced torque converter. You did not mention what oil pan the 360 has (hopefully from a car), but a 318/340 oil pan will not fit a 360.

I forgot to ask what exhaust system? I am assuming headers with dual exhausts of 2.25 to 2.50"?

With your gear ratio and tire size (estimated at 26.1" tall), your engine RPM at 60 MPH is only about 2,500 RPM (2494.67 assuming no converter slippage.)
Your gear/tire size/converter look like a decent match for a street car, and if you plan to keep those parts I would recommend an engine built for strong low/midrange torque, and not peak HP which may be well over 5,500 RPM which is really too high a power band for your gearing and converter stall.

You mentioned using stock iron heads? The heads are a big variable making power, and getting the compression and quench right. You say they have 2.02" valve, but what about porting? Do you know how much the heads flow? or at least have the bowls been opened up larger than stock?
You mentioned 62cc's? is this an estimate or actual measurement? Also, if you want to build "quench" with those heads, what is the distance from the head deck to the flat "quench" area of the cylinder head. Keith Black has two Step headed dished pistins that can produce 9.5:1 or greater compression with good quench which may be an idea, but they are sort of a pain to clearance (may require extra machining.)
If you plan to swap the heads in the future to a closed chamber design then you will want a flat top piston design.

I am also thinking of the detonation limits with your pump gas, and the cylinder head type. The open chamber iron heads will have to run at a lower compression ratio than closed chamber aluminum heads, so the heads used are a critical decision in the parts suggested.


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451Mopar
mopar addict


Reged: May 19 2008
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5647713 - Sat Dec 05 2009 12:06 AM

from your vehicle useage and RPM power range, the cams that operate in your power band would be something like the comp XE268 or XE274. The XE284 is pretty large and on the simulator it looks like it will only make a bit more power above 5,000 RPM (the heads start being the restriction), but give up 20-30 ft/lbs torque through the entire lower RPM range up to about 4,000 RPM.

The Launiti Voodoo 60403 and 60404 also look good.
Also, the Hughes Engines HEH2832AL would work too.

once the compression ratio is ironed out it may help narrow the cam selection. The smaller cams would work good with slightly lower compression ratios, but could cause too high cylinder pressures with higher compression ratios, so if the head/piston combination has a higher compression ratio (I am thinking 10:1), then the larger sized can would help bleed off some low RPM cylinder pressure (Later Intake closing point plus more overlap.)

Depending on your cylinder head volume (62cc?), gasket volume (9cc?) the KB-107 piston should be about 10.53:1 compression, which may work ok with the larger cams. The SpeedPro ZH116CP piston is slightly shorter (compression height) and it would have about 10.17:1 compression ratio.
I looked at the speed pro ZH405 pistons, but the compression ratios were pretty low, around 8.9:1 compression ratio. The KB-190's are domed pistons and about 11.35:1 compression which would be too high for pump gas using the iron heads and the cams noted above.

Right now, I am starting to like the looks of the Hughes HEH2832AL with the ZH116CP pistons, but the Voodoo 60404 with either the ZH116CP or KB107 pistons also looks like it may work too, but I am concerned about the higher compression ratios of the 107 pistons...


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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5647756 - Sat Dec 05 2009 01:49 AM

I will need to get a new oilpan, probably OEM style to fit e-body.

exhaust system? I am assuming headers with dual exhausts of 2.25 to 2.50"? Yes, correct, flowmaster mufflers

Offenhauser dual plane intake

Carburetor, a new will be selected probably 650-750

Heads are 3418915 castings modified to 2,02 inlet
No further specs. CC are estimated. Stock CC are 65. guess they have been decked for straight ness, do not know how much it will influence. If accurate CC and other specs. are necessary I need to take heads off and measure. I can do that, they have to come off anyway.

Regarding quench, That is for KB190 as I understand , have learned 0,40 is the goal, and this should be obtained by using 0,39 gasket.
If machining is required, is it then the piston to machine, I can do that in a lathe.

KB107 is non quench piston, and shall not be machined am I right ?

Thanks for your interest 451Mopar


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451Mopar
mopar addict


Reged: May 19 2008
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5649362 - Sat Dec 05 2009 07:33 PM

Since I had nothing better to do today, I took a good look at the avaliable piston selections, and out of 27 pistons, the KB-107 is the least expensive for your combination at $199.95 set from Summit (I just used Summit to get the piston info and prices.) The Speed Pro ZH116CP is nearly the same as the KB-107 with a slightly lower compression height which would help lower the compression a bit, but they appear to cost almost $100 more ($295.92) than the KB-107.
None of the quench pistons seem to get near the correct compression ratio, besides the KB-104 would be near perfect if you swap on aluminum closed chamber heads in the future.

Using these specifications, here are some results:
KB-107 Piston
Block height 9.60"
Rod length 6.123"
Crank Stroke 3.580"
Cylinder head volume 65cc
Head gasket volume 8.997cc
Air pressure 14.70 psi (sea level)
Launiti Voodo 60404 cam installed per specs (intake opens at 64 degrees after BDC)

The Piston would sit 0.012" below the block deck.
The compression ratio would be 10.18:1
The estimated Cylinder gauge pressure would be about 161 psi (should be good for pump gas.)

So for my The KB-107 pistons and Voodoo 60404 cam would be my choice, along with some closed chamber Edelbrock heads should make a real strong combination.

I plugged the Info into Dynomation5 simulator, using flow numbers for stock unported heads, and the Edelbrock heads. With either head the low end / mid range torque looks nearly the same up to about 3,000 RPM. The torque curves are pretty broad and flat like you would want in a street car. Here are the HP /TQ numbers
RPM - Stock HP - TQ --Edel HP - TQ
1000 - 68 ---- 359 --- 67 --- 351
1500 - 108 ---- 377 --- 109 --- 380
2000 - 150 ---- 395 --- 143 --- 375
2500 - 197 ---- 415 --- 198 --- 417
3000 - 239 ---- 418 --- 246 --- 431
3500 - 279 ---- 418 --- 293 --- 440
4000 - 307 ---- 404 --- 342 --- 449
4500 - 327 ---- 381 --- 387 --- 451
5000 - 331 ---- 348 --- 417 --- 438
5500 - 320 ---- 306 --- 437 --- 418
6000 - 293 ---- 257 --- 436 --- 382

This was using 750 cfm carb, high flow dual plane intake, and small tube headers with mufflers.


Edited by 451Mopar (Sat Dec 05 2009 08:39 PM)


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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5653018 - Mon Dec 07 2009 02:17 PM

Thank you all Moparts guys and a special thanks to 451Mopar for your competent and comprehensive advice.
I have started to look for suppliers and prices.

And you are right when looking at costs of high strenght bolts + rod machining some other considerations starts.

Buying a stroker kit which include brand new crank, rods, pistons, rings and bearings fore a reasonable cost.
Have been looking at the Eagle kits offered on e-bay, but it's another jungle to pick the right.

Any advice on stoker kits ?

Will consider it during christmas and take the
decision after new year.

Thanks moparts


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451Mopar
mopar addict


Reged: May 19 2008
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5654125 - Mon Dec 07 2009 11:55 PM

The stroker kits are great for power, but I though you were on a tight budget. Besides, to feed the extra size of the stroker you will need aftermarket heads.

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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5655452 - Tue Dec 08 2009 04:35 PM

Other heads ! then it's settled, the limit is reached, no stroker kit.

Will now start to put together what I need and see if I can find a one stop supplier with the right prices too.

Thanks


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Intense RT Dan
member


Reged: Sep 18 2009
Loc: Mooresville, NC
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5656050 - Tue Dec 08 2009 08:32 PM

Just my two cents worth. Instead of reconditioning the rods, it's typically better to just get aftermarket rods. The cost difference would be minimal, at least here/stateside. Do you have someone to balance the rotating assembly?

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dodgeboy11
super stock


Reged: Jan 31 2007
Loc: Lund, NV
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Intense RT Dan]
      #5656175 - Tue Dec 08 2009 09:22 PM

If you decide to go with a stroker in the future (which would completely blow your 1000 dollar budget) stay far away from the eagle cast crankshaft. It is a bit of a fragile piece. Scat makes a very affordable 4340 I beam rod with capscrews and it's a full floating setup. Eagle has an I beam rod, the SIR that is cheaper yet, but not as strong as the Scat. I'd recommend the new aftermarket rod selection rather than rebuilding stock rods as this will make rod lengths much more consistent, which, if you are shooting for a good quench setup, will make it much easier. It's somewhat difficult to rebuild stock rods and make them all the same length without converting them to full floating rods, and by the time you do that, you could have had new rods.
I'm a little concerned about your smog requirements. I've never had to build a performance smog motor and I am unsure how difficult it would be to stay under the CO requirements. What is your octane available at the pump, and what measurement is used to get that number? I know it's different from country to country and some 98 octane may be the same as our 91 or less

--------------------
Head porter, engine builder, mechanic and all that goes with it...


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StandOnIt
super stock


Reged: Nov 14 2006
Loc: Baton Rouge, La.
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5656455 - Wed Dec 09 2009 05:12 AM

Quote:

The stroker kits are great for power, but I though you were on a tight budget. Besides, to feed the extra size of the stroker you will need aftermarket heads.




We have put plenty strokers together with iron heads. I have one right now in a Volare that will run 11.20's in the 1/4 and leaves with the front tires in the air, (Ross pistons, eagle rods, MP purple camshaft around .510 lift, 904 trans 3800 BTE converter, 4.30 rear on 29" tires weighing in at 3200lbs wet with driver). I was running stock rods in it for a while when I put it together for the first time, budget build with the cast mopar stroker pistons. My dist came loose and I lost a few pistons.I ran an Eddie airgap at first and made great power down low the switched to an M1 and it moved the power range up a few hundred rpm so you could really use either intake. You just can't beat the tourqe of a small stroker. The engines manners are great IMO also. You will have to consider the extra cost tho. Its easy to get 400 to 450 hp from a mild iron headed stroker. If I were doing another, I would sit on my project a few more months to save up a little more and do it right. You won't be dissapointed.

--------------------
76' Volare, 5.9 magnum w/Iron heads. New best 10.68 at 123 mph 1/4 mile.


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racincuda
mopar


Reged: Sep 27 2003
Loc: Kansas
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: StandOnIt]
      #5656526 - Wed Dec 09 2009 06:47 AM


Have been thinkin bout a similar build myself


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Moparbil
member


Reged: May 16 2005
Loc: Denmark, Aeroe
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5732643 - Wed Jan 13 2010 02:31 PM

I have done some research on parts for the descriebed rebuild.
The bore will be 0,020. Speed pro H116CP pistons is not possible to get in this size as a set. Bought each they get too expensive. also not possible to get any piston weight data.
So I will go for KB107

Regarding Cam the choice is Lunati. But I am in doubt if it shall be 60403 or 60404
Will the HP / TQ data kindly given by 451Mopar alter much if 60403 was choosen?
I want HP and TQ but is little sensitive about how the idle will be. Seeking the best compromise.
Any driven experience with these cams welcome.



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451Mopar
mopar addict


Reged: May 19 2008
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: Moparbil]
      #5733937 - Thu Jan 14 2010 12:41 AM

Quote:

I have done some research on parts for the descriebed rebuild.
The bore will be 0,020. Speed pro H116CP pistons is not possible to get in this size as a set. Bought each they get too expensive. also not possible to get any piston weight data.
So I will go for KB107

Regarding Cam the choice is Lunati. But I am in doubt if it shall be 60403 or 60404
Will the HP / TQ data kindly given by 451Mopar alter much if 60403 was choosen?
I want HP and TQ but is little sensitive about how the idle will be. Seeking the best compromise.
Any driven experience with these cams welcome.






The 60403 should be good. It may be more sensitive to the fuel octane rating because it will trap more cylinder pressure. If the pressure is too high, you could install the cam a few degrees retarded (108 to 110 degree intake centerline) so the intake valve closes later.


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Flo
enthusiast


Reged: Sep 29 2005
Loc: Berlin, Germany
Re: pistons and cam to a 360 [Re: 451Mopar]
      #5733983 - Thu Jan 14 2010 03:43 AM

Your email does not work. Just sent you a PM. You can call me up if you like.
I recently built a 348 (out of a 318). I destroyed it on the dyno, but it should meet your performance requirements. I used a Comp Cam 264 HR12 with Edelbrock heads. 268 would probably be it for what you want.
Greets
Flo

--------------------
1967 Fury III 4door HT
tiny 318, late model roller block, bored and stroked to 344


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