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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Ladder Bar Question
      #5581201 - Sun Nov 01 2009 09:37 PM Attachment (225 downloads)

Hey guys, I'm having a full fram put in at a shop and I had a ladder bar angle concern. I bought the back half out of a car that was in the shop and I don't think the brackets are correct for how low my car is sitting. There is a pretty good down angle on the bars and I have concerns about the car going straight on the launch. See attachment

--------------------
72 Plymouth Duster 526 Pro Street/Strip

69 Roadrunner
69 Barracuda 383 Formula S
69 Power Wagon
94 4x4 Cummins Ram

Edited by moparmanjames (Sun Nov 01 2009 09:38 PM)


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Cab_Burge
Too Many Posts


Reged: Aug 23 2003
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581292 - Sun Nov 01 2009 11:00 PM

Quote:

Hey guys, I'm having a full fram put in at a shop and I had a ladder bar angle concern. I bought the back half out of a car that was in the shop and I don't think the brackets are correct for how low my car is sitting. There is a pretty good down angle on the bars and I have concerns about the car going straight on the launch. See attachment


If there is only one set of mounting holes I would not be buying that set up

--------------------
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Cab_Burge]
      #5581294 - Sun Nov 01 2009 11:04 PM

I already bought it, that pic is as installed in the car, I'm should have them take it off and go with a 4 link eh?

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Cab_Burge
Too Many Posts


Reged: Aug 23 2003
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581297 - Sun Nov 01 2009 11:12 PM

I don't want to rain on your project but I see a lot of required parts of the cage missing, hopefully there not representing this back half picture as all that is needed, are they? Is the rear suspension in and is the car at ride hieght or cloes to it in your picture? I really don't like the way the ladder bar mounts are on the rear end and where they mounted them in relation to the frame rails

--------------------
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Cab_Burge]
      #5581315 - Sun Nov 01 2009 11:30 PM Attachment (145 downloads)

Quote:

I don't want to rain on your project but I see a lot of required parts of the cage missing, hopefully there not representing this back half picture as all that is needed, are they? Is the rear suspension in and is the car at ride hieght or cloes to it in your picture? I really don't like the way the ladder bar mounts are on the rear end and where they mounted them in relation to the frame rails




It's very close to it in the sig picture. The cage was not complete at the time but is almost complete now. My main question was the angle of the ladder bars. That was the only picture I had available to show of the angle.
The car is still at the shop. Here is a better pic of the cage coming along

--------------------
72 Plymouth Duster 526 Pro Street/Strip

69 Roadrunner
69 Barracuda 383 Formula S
69 Power Wagon
94 4x4 Cummins Ram


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581316 - Sun Nov 01 2009 11:32 PM Attachment (162 downloads)

another

--------------------
72 Plymouth Duster 526 Pro Street/Strip

69 Roadrunner
69 Barracuda 383 Formula S
69 Power Wagon
94 4x4 Cummins Ram


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Cab_Burge
Too Many Posts


Reged: Aug 23 2003
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581329 - Sun Nov 01 2009 11:51 PM

That looks a lot better, see if they will fix it for free before offering to pay for the switch to a four link If they can't insatll a ladder bar correctly how many ways can they mess up a four link installation You don't want the car to hurt you or drive you broke trying to make it go straight and easy to drive, does this shop have a good reputation with a lot of cars out there working really good? If not think about switching for the last changes to the rear suspension, let them learn on someone else

--------------------
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)


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Quicktree
Liberal Arts Instructor


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581372 - Mon Nov 02 2009 03:23 AM

Quote:

Hey guys, I'm having a full fram put in at a shop and I had a ladder bar angle concern. I bought the back half out of a car that was in the shop and I don't think the brackets are correct for how low my car is sitting. There is a pretty good down angle on the bars and I have concerns about the car going straight on the launch. See attachment




that door bar looks high, are they raising the seat? looks like it will be higher than your shoulder?


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Cab_Burge]
      #5581565 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:12 AM

They have a good reputation with circle track cars, but I think since this back half was a bargain deal they tried to use the parts that were there instead of telling me I had to buy different brackets. They are very knowledgable about the front suspension but they don't seem so much so on the rear of a drag racer.

--------------------
72 Plymouth Duster 526 Pro Street/Strip

69 Roadrunner
69 Barracuda 383 Formula S
69 Power Wagon
94 4x4 Cummins Ram


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bigtimeauto
Trophy Winner


Reged: Jun 03 2007
Loc: Plymouth Meeting, PA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581569 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:16 AM

the ladder bar needs to be level to the ground now and adjustment holes up and down for tuning.

--------------------
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154


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bigtimeauto
Trophy Winner


Reged: Jun 03 2007
Loc: Plymouth Meeting, PA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: bigtimeauto]
      #5581573 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:19 AM

One more thing. The way the cage is built it will not cert lower than 8.50

--------------------
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Quicktree]
      #5581576 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey guys, I'm having a full fram put in at a shop and I had a ladder bar angle concern. I bought the back half out of a car that was in the shop and I don't think the brackets are correct for how low my car is sitting. There is a pretty good down angle on the bars and I have concerns about the car going straight on the launch. See attachment




that door bar looks high, are they raising the seat? looks like it will be higher than your shoulder?




No it's ok, although I might raise it a little for better vision.


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: bigtimeauto]
      #5581581 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:22 AM

Quote:

One more thing. The way the cage is built it will not cert lower than 8.50




Yeah they arent finished with the cage but what are you seeing? Every little bit helps, thanks.


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68roadrunner
super stock


Reged: Jun 25 2009
Loc: ky
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581590 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:28 AM

i am no chassis expert, but that will not work.

the ladder bar crossmember dictates the ride height of the car. the bottom ladder bar should be level with the ground in the middle hole of the cross member bracket, then install shock to hold car at that heigth. that is the way it was explained to me when i put them in my roadrunner.

i could be all wrong here, maybe a real chassis guy will chime in.


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: bigtimeauto]
      #5581597 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:34 AM Attachment (118 downloads)

"the ladder bar needs to be level to the ground now and adjustment holes up and down for tuning."


Yeah that's what I thought too, so seeing as how the car is so low, how would you fix it? I think the axle brackets have to be re-welded and moved inboard and different front brackets made.
Here's a pic and you can barely see it but it's on the right side where the ladder bar mounts to the front.

--------------------
72 Plymouth Duster 526 Pro Street/Strip

69 Roadrunner
69 Barracuda 383 Formula S
69 Power Wagon
94 4x4 Cummins Ram

Edited by moparmanjames (Mon Nov 02 2009 07:38 AM)


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68roadrunner
super stock


Reged: Jun 25 2009
Loc: ky
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581624 - Mon Nov 02 2009 07:50 AM

yep! move the axle brackets inside of the frame rails, build (or buy)a cross member with 5 or 6 holes for adjustment. mounted between frame rails at the proper height so the car will set that low. from the looks of the frame rails there will need some creative work there to get the cross member that high.

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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: 68roadrunner]
      #5581732 - Mon Nov 02 2009 08:46 AM

Quote:

yep! move the axle brackets inside of the frame rails, build (or buy)a cross member with 5 or 6 holes for adjustment. mounted between frame rails at the proper height so the car will set that low. from the looks of the frame rails there will need some creative work there to get the cross member that high.




Yeah the car is lowered so much I'm going to have to get silly with it. Since the axle is higher than the frame, maybe I can use a longer lower bracket on the axle to get it level with the ground.

--------------------
72 Plymouth Duster 526 Pro Street/Strip

69 Roadrunner
69 Barracuda 383 Formula S
69 Power Wagon
94 4x4 Cummins Ram


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68roadrunner
super stock


Reged: Jun 25 2009
Loc: ky
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5581828 - Mon Nov 02 2009 09:37 AM

have never seen an offset bracket to lower the bars lower on the axle. i would be afraid that would change the leverage on the chassis. if it did, any normal tuning info would be out the window.

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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: 68roadrunner]
      #5581865 - Mon Nov 02 2009 09:56 AM

Quote:

have never seen an offset bracket to lower the bars lower on the axle. i would be afraid that would change the leverage on the chassis. if it did, any normal tuning info would be out the window.




Ok then I guess I'll go the other rout lol, I don't want to start screwing things up worse.


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Chassisman
master


Reged: Sep 24 2006
Loc: Chowchilla,ca
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5582059 - Mon Nov 02 2009 11:58 AM

Quote:

Hey guys, I'm having a full fram put in at a shop and I had a ladder bar angle concern. I bought the back half out of a car that was in the shop and I don't think the brackets are correct for how low my car is sitting. There is a pretty good down angle on the bars and I have concerns about the car going straight on the launch. See attachment


UH...that thing will NEVER launch with the ladder bar at that angle. I'm sorry but your going to be battling a HUGE issue.The bottom bar of the ladder bar needs to be as close to parallel to the ground as possible in order for it to work.Where you have it now the car will only spin on the launch.Build whatever it takes to get the bar level. I'll look at the other pics and see what else can or needs to be corrected. I see some Chassisworks tin in there did you purchase it from them?

--------------------
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!!


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Bob_Coomer
super gas


Reged: Nov 12 2003
Loc: Rock Springs
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Chassisman]
      #5582062 - Mon Nov 02 2009 12:02 PM

Tell them to move the ladder front mount cross member up now before its too late.
At this point it will be much easier to accomplish this then after its all together.
The rest of the car looks good.

--------------------
65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon
557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package


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Chassisman
master


Reged: Sep 24 2006
Loc: Chowchilla,ca
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Chassisman]
      #5582095 - Mon Nov 02 2009 12:23 PM

At this point your throwing good money after bad...bite the bullet and get a COMPLETE 4-link set up.Maybe I need to retire to Vegas and open up shop again.....

This is how it SHOULD look http://www.cachassisworks.com/Stories/HowCAC-001_WEB.pdf

http://www.cachassisworks.com/Stories/CAC_GEN_CHP_2007-09.pdf

--------------------
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!!


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Cab_Burge
Too Many Posts


Reged: Aug 23 2003
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5582108 - Mon Nov 02 2009 12:33 PM

Quote:

"the ladder bar needs to be level to the ground now and adjustment holes up and down for tuning."


Yeah that's what I thought too, so seeing as how the car is so low, how would you fix it? I think the axle brackets have to be re-welded and moved inboard and different front brackets made.



It is good that you know that they do roundy rounders well, maybe they will be willing to learn how to do a drag race ladder bar rear suspension correctly on your car As already said on the lower bar and front mounts, they are all valid points A good ladder bar(quality and installation) set up properly will hook up in a mud bog in the middle of a rain storm Mine does I have owned and race four ladder bar rear suspension Dusters, one of them was not set up correctly, one mounting point for the front and the lower bar was not parrelel to the ground at ride hieght, it was a pig on the 60 ft. times, the car didn't spin the tire and the chassis didn't move when I hit the throttle . The fix was removing the complete rear suspension and staring over

--------------------
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)


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moparmanjames
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 05 2005
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Cab_Burge]
      #5582194 - Mon Nov 02 2009 01:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"the ladder bar needs to be level to the ground now and adjustment holes up and down for tuning."


Yeah that's what I thought too, so seeing as how the car is so low, how would you fix it? I think the axle brackets have to be re-welded and moved inboard and different front brackets made.



It is good that you know that they do roundy rounders well, maybe they will be willing to learn how to do a drag race ladder bar rear suspension correctly on your car As already said on the lower bar and front mounts, they are all valid points A good ladder bar(quality and installation) set up properly will hook up in a mud bog in the middle of a rain storm Mine does I have owned and race four ladder bar rear suspension Dusters, one of them was not set up correctly, one mounting point for the front and the lower bar was not parrelel to the ground at ride hieght, it was a pig on the 60 ft. times, the car didn't spin the tire and the chassis didn't move when I hit the throttle . The fix was removing the complete rear suspension and staring over




I just got off the phone with the owner and we are going to order a 4 link for it and get it straightened out.


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PLUM BAD
enthusiast


Reged: Jan 25 2007
Loc: So. IL. USA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5582749 - Mon Nov 02 2009 06:15 PM

4-link sounds like a good idea. Since you're having the work done at a roundy round shop, make sure they're using the right size wall thickess tubing for the cage. Most dirt car shops use .095 wall which is to thin to pass tech.

--------------------

PLUMBAD RACING
72 RoadRunner
Best 9.16 ET, 148 mph, 1.28 60-ft.


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bigtimeauto
Trophy Winner


Reged: Jun 03 2007
Loc: Plymouth Meeting, PA
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: PLUM BAD]
      #5582762 - Mon Nov 02 2009 06:19 PM

What is your goal? if its 25.5 you need to buy a SFI book so you can do it right.

--------------------
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154


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kosdart1
member


Reged: Jan 23 2005
Loc: Oak Lawn IL.
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: moparmanjames]
      #5590537 - Fri Nov 06 2009 06:19 PM

If it were me Id raise the top frame rails up even with the rocker bar,,

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kingdust
member


Reged: Aug 29 2008
Loc: long island new york
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: kosdart1]
      #5590840 - Fri Nov 06 2009 09:16 PM

if they can't install ladder bars the correct way, why would you want them to put in a 4 link! seems like they were going to finish the car and take your money if you did not say anything. i would seriously think about pulling it out of there and going to a shop that does drag cars only. im not bashing the shop, im sure they do nice work on circle track cars, but the drag cars are different. good luck

--------------------
LIFE IS A LESSON,YOU LEARN IT WHEN YOUR THROUGH!


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Comp Chassis 2
member


Reged: Mar 17 2009
Loc: Glendale AZ
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: kingdust]
      #5590903 - Fri Nov 06 2009 10:17 PM

Problem is that's a chassisworks rear frame kit designed for a much higher frame to ground distance. ladderbar brackets are under the rails,and if rails are say 5inches of the ground then pivot point is going to be 3&half or less. they can be fixed by relocating a new set of brackets onto the crossmember,and new brackets on housing for about 200.00 total verses the cost of a 4-link. Plus if the shop thought that geometry was going to work I would not want them installing a 4-link. Not to mention that the kick up in the rails is going to be to far forward for the 4-link plates. So your talking more involved fab work thats going to look like an afterthought at best .IMO move the brackets inward till they are level with ground with one hole left up as well as down

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Comp Chassis 2
member


Reged: Mar 17 2009
Loc: Glendale AZ
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Comp Chassis 2]
      #5590912 - Fri Nov 06 2009 10:30 PM

PS. you could also possibly move the ladderbars outside the rails if there is enough room to the tires wich would actually work better if possible. A wider track is more stable . And the brackets would end up on a straight lenght of crossmember instead of in the drop. Have run into this problem before with this same frame clip, bad design on chassisworks part. works on a high riding backhalf car but not on a full chassis car. but they sell it as part of package that they say can be upgraded to a complete chassis kit.

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Chassisman
master


Reged: Sep 24 2006
Loc: Chowchilla,ca
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Comp Chassis 2]
      #5590945 - Fri Nov 06 2009 11:09 PM

He already ordered a 4 link further up in the post.....

--------------------
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!!


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Comp Chassis 2
member


Reged: Mar 17 2009
Loc: Glendale AZ
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Chassisman]
      #5590951 - Fri Nov 06 2009 11:23 PM

Where is he going to attach the front plates on those rails? Complete redo of the rear clip, including the cage bars that are already installed as well as basically a new housing since any good 4-link kits are going to have 360 degree brackets. A waste of money and time in my opinion but i guess thats up to them to decide. not knocking anyone just hate to see a project go from bad to worse.

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Bad Sport
mopar


Reged: Mar 22 2005
Loc: Michigan
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Comp Chassis 2]
      #5591226 - Sat Nov 07 2009 08:28 AM Attachment (49 downloads)

this is a cool blog just learned a bunch. so i have a question if you have a small tire car you can run the ladder bar further out to the tires like in the original leafsppring location and this is good?? I would assum the reason for most kits being so close in is do to tire size and new frame rails?? another great blog thanks guys

--------------------
74 Dart Sport Best to Date 10.82 1/4. (back on the road this weekend and feels great)


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Chassisman
master


Reged: Sep 24 2006
Loc: Chowchilla,ca
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Comp Chassis 2]
      #5591554 - Sat Nov 07 2009 12:48 PM

Quote:

Where is he going to attach the front plates on those rails? Complete redo of the rear clip, including the cage bars that are already installed as well as basically a new housing since any good 4-link kits are going to have 360 degree brackets. A waste of money and time in my opinion but i guess thats up to them to decide. not knocking anyone just hate to see a project go from bad to worse.


A set of Chassisworks Elm II rails will work with what he has...but the car will have a 4.5-5.5 ride height in the back...not bad for what he's working with now. And with the Elm II it would use the same crossmember(Elm II has a higher kick rail)...So he's hopefully going Elm II or going round tube and going to pull out the 3x2 and add bars to make the Avenger style 4-link.
Elm II http://www.cachassisworks.com/Stories/HowCAC-004_WEB.pdf

This would work better for him... http://www.cachassisworks.com/iwwidb.pvx...4LNK58?COMP=CAC

Hers a pic from a million years ago...1998...lol


And heres what it is today...


Edited by Chassisman (Sat Nov 07 2009 12:56 PM)


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SB449VALIANT
pro stock


Reged: Feb 17 2005
Loc: Mcallen, TX
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: Chassisman]
      #5591585 - Sat Nov 07 2009 01:16 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

Chassisman.... How much green papper is needed these days to get to build a cm chassis from alston, for a 65 valiant, plus the welding job.Something like this, at these level/stage...thanks...

--------------------


449c.i of small block with Indy heads coming soon!!!


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Chassisman
master


Reged: Sep 24 2006
Loc: Chowchilla,ca
Re: Ladder Bar Question [Re: SB449VALIANT]
      #5591675 - Sat Nov 07 2009 02:39 PM

Quote:

Chassisman.... How much green papper is needed these days to get to build a cm chassis from alston, for a 65 valiant, plus the welding job.Something like this, at these level/stage...thanks...


Labor to get it a roller like in that pic was around 7k...parts/materials around 12-15k(depending on quality)...so around 19k total....then tin work is 7-10k... BUT I'm not in that business anymore....so who knows what the going rate is...

--------------------
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!!


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