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CompSyn
super stock


Reged: Apr 24 2008
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam???
      #5400319 - Wed Aug 05 2009 09:03 PM

There are a lot of motor oil related questions here on moparts.com. A quick search going back two weeks netted a few of the following:

moparts.com - Another Zinc in oil question......

moparts.com - Anybody,your option on synthetic motor oil for a 440?

moparts.com - Break In Oil?

moparts.com - Best oil to use in re-built 440?

FWIW, my personal opinion and what Iíd recommend in selecting a motor oil for high performance flat-tappet use.

1) Try to not be afraid of spending a little extra money on that quart of motor oil and get a good known high performance oil thatís already high in zinc. You spent a lot of time and money on your engine, why skimp on the motor oil?

2) Avoid aftermarket motor oil additives . Such additives have been known to upset the chemical balance of an already blended motor oil causing such things as oil foaming. Save money by not buying the extra additives and leave the oil blinding/formulating to the experts. That money spent on additives could be going towards a high quality motor oil thatís backed by a manufacturers warranty. Using additives may void the lubricant warranty if an issue does arise.

3) Motor oils that are too thick rob horsepower and affect performance. Try to go as thin as safely possible. For example, a friend of mine races his car in the 10.90 second bracket. He uses a high quality 10W-30 motor oil and has outstanding wear numbers from his Used Oil Analysis (UOA) report. Try to never assume that a high performance engine must have a 40-or-50 grade motor oil to survive.

4) Time to shoot myself in the foot. Do as much research as you are comfortable with doing on this topic and try NOT to depend as much on the opinions of others. This includes internet experts, salesmen, and even engine builders. There is a lot of misinformation out there and many good sources as well. Personally find out what makes since to you and go with it.

5) After you find a motor oil your are comfortable with and have used it for at least a couple of oil changes, the best thing you can do is get a Used Oil Analysis (UOA). A UOA can be had for about $20-25 from a number of sources and can reveal things like actual wear from your engine. It can also tell you if there is excessive fuel, coolant or dirt in your oil. Finally, a UOA will tell you if the motor oil you selected is worth continued use. It could be that a specific brand or type of motor oil is not best for your application.

Below are a few informational sources that might get you on the way in the quest for the best oil.

Good luck!

Hot Rod: Flat Tappet Cam Tech - Righting the Wrongs

Bob Is The Oil Guy.com/forums

Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lobe Lubrication[/color

--------------------
"All oils perform the same duties, but some perform them better than others. What factors do you consider when choosing a motor oil?" - Mopar Muscle Magazine - LINK


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MY340
master


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Missouri
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: CompSyn]
      #5400948 - Thu Aug 06 2009 08:07 AM

Alot of people like Brad Penn & Valvoline Racing oil due to their high zinc content. I use the VR oil.

3) Motor oils that are too thick rob horsepower and affect performance. Try to go as thin as safely possible. For example, a friend of mine races his car in the 10.90 second bracket. He uses a high quality 10W-30 motor oil and has outstanding wear numbers from his Used Oil Analysis (UOA) report. Try to never assume that a high performance engine must have a 40-or-50 grade motor oil to survive.

Racing engines are different than street engines. The guys want to get every fraction of horsepower for that 1/8 or 1/4 mile run. I would never run 10W-30 motor oil on a high performance street car in the HOT summer temps especially on long drives. (thermal breakdown)



--------------------
1970 FE5 Duster 360/904/3.91's SOLD
1973 TB3 SpaceDuster 340/4spd/4.10's SOLD

Moparless for now but when the opportunity is right I'll have another one.


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Frank Raso
member


Reged: Mar 05 2006
Loc: Stevensville, ON
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: MY340]
      #5401072 - Thu Aug 06 2009 09:10 AM

HDEOs are also high in ZDDP (phosphorus in ZDDP provides antiwear) and have stronger detergents than racing oils. There is more to an engine oil than just ZDDP content.

Valvoline VR1

Amsoil HDD 5W-30
(I couldn't find the P & Zn content for 10W-30 Amsoil ACD)

VR-1 contains 1300 ppm of phosphorus while Amsoil HDD contains 1266 ppm of phosphorus. VR-1 is mineral oil while HDD is synthetic so the base oil doesn't require as much ZDDP for anti-wear protection. 5W-30 HDD has a viscosity of 11.3 cSt @ 100įC compared with 11.5 cSt for 10W-30 VR-1. HDD's viscosity index is higher (170 vs 143) so it will not thin out as quickly as VR-1 when temperatures increase.

Why wouldn't you use a good quality 10W-30 in a HP street engine in the summer on long drives? Does the oil run hotter or are the clearances a lot looser than on a stock engine?

ACCCC Engine Oil Article


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62maxwgn
master


Reged: Jan 22 2003
Loc: Central,PA
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: Frank Raso]
      #5401218 - Thu Aug 06 2009 10:40 AM Attachment (71 downloads)

Anyone can tell you anything,Only way to be sure,get an analysis.I had this one done on Brad Penn.Suits me.

--------------------
If you don't know what you're doing,don't mess with it !!


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autoxcuda
Too Many Posts


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: So Cal
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: CompSyn]
      #5401236 - Thu Aug 06 2009 10:52 AM

Come on now! What a rhetorical question.

You sell Amsoil

Your post is not a question even though you are trying to make it look like it. It's you opinion as an answer.

Nothing wrong with that, but why disguise it as a question? Or is that part of the pitch?



Quote:

There are a lot of motor oil related questions here on moparts.com. A quick search going back two weeks netted a few of the following:

moparts.com - Another Zinc in oil question......

moparts.com - Anybody,your option on synthetic motor oil for a 440?

moparts.com - Break In Oil?

moparts.com - Best oil to use in re-built 440?

FWIW, my personal opinion and what Iíd recommend in selecting a motor oil for high performance flat-tappet use.

1) Try to not be afraid of spending a little extra money on that quart of motor oil and get a good known high performance oil thatís already high in zinc. You spent a lot of time and money on your engine, why skimp on the motor oil?

2) Avoid aftermarket motor oil additives . Such additives have been known to upset the chemical balance of an already blended motor oil causing such things as oil foaming. Save money by not buying the extra additives and leave the oil blinding/formulating to the experts. That money spent on additives could be going towards a high quality motor oil thatís backed by a manufacturers warranty. Using additives may void the lubricant warranty if an issue does arise.

3) Motor oils that are too thick rob horsepower and affect performance. Try to go as thin as safely possible. For example, a friend of mine races his car in the 10.90 second bracket. He uses a high quality 10W-30 motor oil and has outstanding wear numbers from his Used Oil Analysis (UOA) report. Try to never assume that a high performance engine must have a 40-or-50 grade motor oil to survive.

4) Time to shoot myself in the foot. Do as much research as you are comfortable with doing on this topic and try NOT to depend as much on the opinions of others. This includes internet experts, salesmen, and even engine builders. There is a lot of misinformation out there and many good sources as well. Personally find out what makes since to you and go with it.

5) After you find a motor oil your are comfortable with and have used it for at least a couple of oil changes, the best thing you can do is get a Used Oil Analysis (UOA). A UOA can be had for about $20-25 from a number of sources and can reveal things like actual wear from your engine. It can also tell you if there is excessive fuel, coolant or dirt in your oil. Finally, a UOA will tell you if the motor oil you selected is worth continued use. It could be that a specific brand or type of motor oil is not best for your application.

Below are a few informational sources that might get you on the way in the quest for the best oil.

Good luck!

Hot Rod: Flat Tappet Cam Tech - Righting the Wrongs

Bob Is The Oil Guy.com/forums

Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lobe Lubrication[/color




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CompSyn
super stock


Reged: Apr 24 2008
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: MY340]
      #5401291 - Thu Aug 06 2009 11:32 AM

Quote:

Racing engines are different than street engines. The guys want to get every fraction of horsepower for that 1/8 or 1/4 mile run. I would never run 10W-30 motor oil on a high performance street car in the HOT summer temps especially on long drives. (thermal breakdown)




Appreciate the discussion

Resistance to thermal break-down is one area where high quality PAO Group IV synthetics really shine and one reason you can safely substitute a lower viscosity synthetic over a higher viscosity conventional oil.

You can go to any manufacturers website and look at their Product Data Sheets (PDS) sometimes called TYPICAL PHYSICAL PROPERTIES. In this data, you can generally find various performance attributes about a specific motor oil by comparing the data therein.

For example, if you want to compare the influences of high temperature operation on a specific motor oil, look for the following information in the PDSs:

Viscosity Index V.I. (ASTM D2270) - Relationship of viscosity to temperature of a fluid. High viscosity index fluids tend to display less change in viscosity with temperature than low viscosity index fluids.

High Temperature High Shear Rate Viscosity HTHS (ASTM D4683) - A measure of a fluids resistance to flow under conditions resembling highly-loaded journal bearings in fired internal combustion engines, typically 1 million s-1 at 302 degrees (F).

NOACK Volatility (ASTM D5800) Ė This test determines the evaporation loss of lubricants in high temperature service. The more motor oils vaporize, the thicker and heavier they become, contributing to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy and increased oil consumption, wear and emissions. See Also

--------------------
"All oils perform the same duties, but some perform them better than others. What factors do you consider when choosing a motor oil?" - Mopar Muscle Magazine - LINK


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Jeff_383
super stock


Reged: Jan 01 2004
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: CompSyn]
      #5401318 - Thu Aug 06 2009 11:53 AM

I have used nothing but the old rotella-T CI+4 15w-40, and now mobil delvac 15w-40 (still a CI+4 rating) in my solid cammed motor since I built it and I've had no problems whatsoever. And I drive mine ALOT and at the track.

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CompSyn
super stock


Reged: Apr 24 2008
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: autoxcuda]
      #5401327 - Thu Aug 06 2009 12:01 PM

Quote:

Come on now! What a rhetorical question.

You sell Amsoil

Your post is not a question even though you are trying to make it look like it. It's you opinion as an answer.

Nothing wrong with that, but why disguise it as a question? Or is that part of the pitch?




The title of the thread was intended to be somewhat rhetorical as this question and ones like it come up again and again here in this forum.

People do ask for opinions on this topic all the time. My aim in this thread was to remain objective as humanly possible and allow SAE and ASTM hard numbers as well as Used Oil Analysis reports to paint the picture of what constitutes a high quality motor oil.

Refer to number #4 of the original post.

Respectfully, everybody has their own opinions and biases which is one reason why many of us like to hang around internet forums. The flip side to that is many come looking for information as well.

Whatís done with the information is up to the individual.


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CompSyn
super stock


Reged: Apr 24 2008
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: Frank Raso]
      #5401344 - Thu Aug 06 2009 12:14 PM

Quote:

(I couldn't find the P & Zn content for 10W-30 Amsoil ACD)




A UOA from two years ago had zinc and phos. At:

phosphorus-----------1180
zinc-------------------1339

I havenít seen any more recent UOAs or VOAs on this oil. But itís still an API CI+4 HDEO so Iím not sure if those numbers would be any different today?

--------------------
"All oils perform the same duties, but some perform them better than others. What factors do you consider when choosing a motor oil?" - Mopar Muscle Magazine - LINK


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MisterFiberglass



Reged: Jul 04 2008
Loc: WINNING - in PaRaDiSe ....Bra...
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: CompSyn]
      #5401350 - Thu Aug 06 2009 12:17 PM

Quote:




1) Try to not be afraid of spending a little extra money on that quart of motor oil and get a good known high performance oil thatís already high in zinc.







A LITTLE EXTRA MONEY ? .... uNless you are buying these Amsoil products way WAY back on the chain-of-sellers .. you are going to be paying A LOT more.

Your post is very well written .. but all it is IS just an "ad" for Amsoil.

....

Tell us ......how Amsoil products are better than the 100% syn-oil is ....from say WallyWorld ? ... an oil that sells for nearly 1/4 the price of Amsoil.

OR ... how Amsoil is bester than a quality dino oil like Rotella ?

--------------------
no, No, NO - not a vaca with the nUtTy FrUiTcAkE oleHAM - - he is so nutty if he ate a can of Planters cashews - he could be charged with CANNIBALISM ....


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CompSyn
super stock


Reged: Apr 24 2008
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: MisterFiberglass]
      #5401392 - Thu Aug 06 2009 12:49 PM

Quote:

A LITTLE EXTRA MONEY ? .... uNless you are buying these Amsoil products way WAY back on the chain-of-sellers .. you are going to be paying A LOT more.




The above is simply not true. See Also


Quote:

Tell us ......how Amsoil products are better than the 100% syn-oil is ....from say WallyWorld ? ... an oil that sells for nearly 1/4 the price of Amsoil.




Most of the synthetic motor oil found at "WallyWorld" is Full Synthetic or made from Group III Base Stocks because of it's price advantage over 100% Synthetic Group IV/V oils. Is a Group IV/V synthetic better than a Group III synthetic? Thatís up to you to decide.


Quote:

OR ... how Amsoil is bester than a quality dino oil like Rotella ?




Okay, give THIS a watch

and

THIS a look.

--------------------
"All oils perform the same duties, but some perform them better than others. What factors do you consider when choosing a motor oil?" - Mopar Muscle Magazine - LINK


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MisterFiberglass



Reged: Jul 04 2008
Loc: WINNING - in PaRaDiSe ....Bra...
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: CompSyn]
      #5401401 - Thu Aug 06 2009 12:53 PM

Your post is very well written .. but all it is IS just an "ad" for Amsoil.

I SEE that you avoided the above statement !

...

I will click-those links and read 'em later.

--------------------
no, No, NO - not a vaca with the nUtTy FrUiTcAkE oleHAM - - he is so nutty if he ate a can of Planters cashews - he could be charged with CANNIBALISM ....


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BADDART
enthusiast


Reged: Jan 24 2004
Loc: Detroit,MI
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: MisterFiberglass]
      #5401438 - Thu Aug 06 2009 01:25 PM

Every vendor here gives his/her opinion at one time or another,and it coincides with the content of the question.I think Comp/syn did a very professional unbiased job-information wise and personal decision wise. Who else so far has given as much info?.Also,he did answer the WallyWorld/Amsoil question. Its all about base stock.Read up. Chris. Note:I use Diesel oil,so I have no gain here,just opinion.

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Hoof Hearted
I'm in love with my ability to count!


Reged: Jan 27 2005
Loc: S.E. Conn
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: BADDART]
      #5401452 - Thu Aug 06 2009 01:34 PM

Very Excellent Post.

I don't think it will cut down on the weekly "what kind of oil is best?" posts one bit.

Still, Very informative, good post. Thanks for taking the time, your opinions are shared by many.

Now, What kind of filter should I use?

--------------------
1999 Dodge Durango
2000 Ford E350 w/284K miles and counting
2005 300C Hemi

I Rekey, Repin old Chrysler locks and cut keys by code


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Frank Raso
member


Reged: Mar 05 2006
Loc: Stevensville, ON
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: MisterFiberglass]
      #5401858 - Thu Aug 06 2009 06:18 PM

I think this is a useful thread because most people really don't have a good understanding of which oil they should be using and why. Since CompSyn sells engine oil, I think he has a natural interest in it and reading misguided recommendations must bug him. It would be well worth your time to read the links that have been posted as they do contain useful information.

Another excellent article everyone with an older engine should read is the Corvair Flat Tappet Oil article. The author also sells engine oils (in Bolivia) but specifically does not mention any of his products. He uses Chevron Delo 400 Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4/SL) in his 1988 BMW and his 1960 Corvair (but I can't find the product data sheet for this oil).

I like Esso XD-3 Extra HDEOs (0W-30 and 0W-40) as these are also Group IV (PAO) oils like Amsoil products but are more economically priced. I also like PetroCanada Duron oils which include Group III synthetics. I didn't mention them earlier because they're not readily available in the USA.

As for WalMart's SuperTech Synthetic, from what I've read on BITOG, it's not a bad oil. See BITOG: SuperTech 0W-30


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CompSyn
super stock


Reged: Apr 24 2008
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: Frank Raso]
      #5402309 - Thu Aug 06 2009 10:15 PM

More on the topic of choosing motor oil viscosity grades.

Even though the UOAs shown in the links below are from a 2004 Ford 6.0 Powerstroke diesel rather than a gasoline engine, isnít it interesting how the 30-grade motor oils show as good as or better wear numbers than the 40-grade motor oils used.

30-grade motor oils are tough to beat even in the demanding conditions of a diesel engine.

I wonder if this person had slightly better fuel economy with the 30-grade oil?


Click on thumbnail to view UOA report.


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CompSyn
super stock


Reged: Apr 24 2008
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: CompSyn]
      #5402313 - Thu Aug 06 2009 10:17 PM

Part two of UOA report:


Click on thumbnail to view UOA report.

Cited: Bob Is The Oil Guy - 04 F250 PSD - Used Oil Analysis Reports

--------------------
"All oils perform the same duties, but some perform them better than others. What factors do you consider when choosing a motor oil?" - Mopar Muscle Magazine - LINK


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therocks
Yankee Lover With My Kid


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Niles , Ohio
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: CompSyn]
      #5402449 - Fri Aug 07 2009 04:51 AM

WE run Kendall GT1 in all our motors.I have full synthetic in the 440 now because I got Valvoline syn race free.Mines been in 10 years as has the kids.My.588 solid has no problems and his was still running the 62 cam till we put the Hughes in.Come to NE Ohio there are still a ton of lod junkers running flat tappets that drive everyday with no problems.Both our cars are street driven and raced.Changing oil and making sure the lifters rotate are the most important thing.Rocky

--------------------
Chrysler Firepower


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64Post
Whiney, slow internet crybaby


Reged: Aug 18 2003
Loc: all over
Re: Whatís the best motor oil for my flat tappet cam??? [Re: 62maxwgn]
      #5402854 - Fri Aug 07 2009 10:38 AM

Quote:

Anyone can tell you anything,Only way to be sure,get an analysis.I had this one done on Brad Penn.Suits me.




Me, too... and that why I run it.


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